Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Thorn General => Topic started by: daviddd55 on April 12, 2007, 11:34:15 PM
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I've bought a Raven Tour with comfort bars, but would also like the option of an alternative hand position similar to that on a dropped-handlebar bike. Any ideas folks?
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You can add inboard bar ends, the position they give is quite narrow and stretched out.
You can change to straight bars, add bar ends to to give alternative positions, and raise the stem to put the hand position at the same height.
However most straight bars have only a few degrees sweep, so you may not find them as comfortable in use.
These 'straight' bars are the only ones I have found with the same sweep as comfort bars and come with adjustable/removeable bar ends built on.
http://www.roseversand.de/output/controller.aspx?cid=156&detail=10&detail2=1254
Lighting the blue touch paper and standing back, you could change to drops with all the opportunities that will present regarding Rohloff changer mounting and possibly having to change frame length.
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Hi David,
If you are after a drop like position - why not fit a drop?
There is a lot of opinion on this subject. The majority view is that a flat bar must be used because the twist grip shifter cannot be fitted properly to a drop bar and that therefor gear use is diminished. The minority view (me included) is that gear shifting is less important than a comfortable and aerodynamic position.
It is true that mounting a Rohloff shifter to a drop is not neatest solution (it looks odd) however I don't believe usability is affected much. If you expect the majority of your riding to be on road and you would normally ride with drops then I would make the switch. If you’re going off-road then a flat or comfort bar would be better.
Bottom line - a few people (on the list) that have switched to a drop bar. As far as I am aware no one has switched the other way.
If you do decide to switch you may find you need to change frame size SJSC will do this FOC if you are still within the 100 day period - top service. Like I said earlier there is a LOT of opinion on this subject, it is worth the time to search thoroughly through this list there is some excellent info.
All the best
Stuart
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Thanks guys, but I'm happy with the straights (comforts) as I will spend most time in that position, especially when offroad. The brakes are much easier to get at for one thing. I've given this a lot of thought, and maybe I won't miss drops as much as I thought, but I want to have a more streamlined alternative for e.g. headwinds. Ideally the same width and position as the hoods on my drops. I may have to cobble something non-standard together, but just exhausting all the ready-made solutions, keep 'em coming!
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http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u249/freddered/RavenFlatsGPS.jpg
I had Cane Creek Bar ends that don't show up on photo. They are very comfy and make it easier to 'honk' up hills than normal bar ends.
The carbon bar-ends get you tucked in a bit (like riding on the hoods).
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quote:
Originally posted by freddered
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u249/freddered/RavenFlatsGPS.jpg
I had Cane Creek Bar ends that don't show up on photo. They are very comfy and make it easier to 'honk' up hills than normal bar ends.
The carbon bar-ends get you tucked in a bit (like riding on the hoods).
I like the carbon bar ends, except they don't give one the forearm 'rest' that drops would. Now if you could get longer ones that might be the ticket. I bet they're available somewhere. must have a look.
I like the little stem bracket for the computer etc too - where'dye get that Fred?
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daviddd5, the inboard carbon bar ends are OK into the wind and do help aerodynamics by 1-2mph at say 15mph. I don't use them much as they give less control, but they are a useful change of hand position. It's true that you don't have arm support although I do feel quite stretched out on the TRT relative to my last bike. You'd also have to think about bar bags and maps interfering with long bar ends -as you can see from my pics the map fits nicely underneath the bar ends. With the ergon grips I find I have 2-3 useful positions to vary things a bit anyway. The one thing I miss is not having decent bar ends for hills, so I just sit back and use the gears more! See here for my set up: http://www.flickr.com/photos/46905038@N00/
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How about this bar then?! http://www.roseversand.de/output/controller.aspx?cid=156&detail=10&detail2=4198
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Accessory Bar is from SJSC
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I've ordered a pair of carbon bar ends - bit pricey but hey ho! I have turned the comfort bars quite a bit back on my bike and I find the new position much better, I think with inboard bar ends I'll be fine. I had a problem with the Rohloff gear shift though when trying to turn it, one of the 2 grub screws that fix it to the bars has rounded - it was incredibly tight despite using a good quality allen key. I may have to send the bars back to SJSC (:-<)
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I found the carbon Thorn extensions to be too stubby... the ends put too much pressure on the center of my hands.
I really like the X-Lite bar ends, which give me a good range of positions.
See http://homepage.mac.com/ahconway/cycling/PhotoAlbum20.html for pix.
Andrew
www.velofellow.com
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There are so many variables it'll take me a while to get really comfy, however I've already found I can almost replicate the arm position with the comfort bars that I had on the drops, so just need some alternative positions and some fine tuning now. I tilted the comfort bars back at least 90 deg and can even go a bit further yet, but for a problem in that I can't undo one of the grub screws that clamp the Rohloff gear control to the bars - just too tight, I've had top strip the bars out and send back to Thorn. This further-back position lets me get my head down much further, and there's considerably less 'sit-up-and-beg' feel about the bike. However time will tell. I guess after 50 years on drops it'll take a while to get used to straights.
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What about the three part Thorn special rohloff drop handlebars that feature in the components catalogue on the Thorn website? Seems a good solution to me, but a bit expensive at £100 and scary if they all fall apart whilst whiizzing along. Why don't they feature in the specification sheets on the rohloff bikes?
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Thanks for replies. At the moment I'm pretty happy with the setup as far as I have used it, here it is: (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v321/daviddd/DSCF1306.jpg)
I really like the stubby carbon bars, extremely comfortable, almost sensuous to hold (need to get out more lol), and the position is very comfortable too with my hands some 10" forward of the stem, much as in a TT position only much more comfortable. I've turned the comfort bars back around 90 degrees and the reach / comfirt seems good all roundm but especially on the stubbies - I am drawn to keep my hands there somehow. Please ignore top of stem - I haven't got around to cutting yet!
I'm now wondering if I should splash out on some Carbon Comfort bars, think I'll start a new thread about this.
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You'll need to do something about that wallpaper....
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......the product of an Ex I'm afraid - and anyway I've sold the house now!
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Just a follow up question from Munroad's comment. Has anyone got on info on the three part Thorn special rohloff drop handlebars? I'm seriously looking at the Thorn Raven City Slicker, but feel that I really need to have drop bars with it. Any info like weight, comfort would be appreciated.
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don't cut the top of the stem off, it's too useful (see my previous post)
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how d'ye mean Freddered? Accessory bar posting....?
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1) Accessory bar for bits and bobs. A bar bag will take up space on bars.
2) On a long tour it's nice to have the option to raise the bars a bit.
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u249/freddered/RavenFlatsGPS.jpg
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I've made a few changes to the cockpit of my Raven. SJS Ergo bar ends, Ergon grips and Magura hydraulic brakes. First impressions are very favourable, I'll do a proper review and some photos when I've done a few more miles.
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I'm planning to buy a Nomad to replace the old steel mountain bike I used on my last tour. I'm fairly sure the Nomad frame design and Thorn racks will be right for my intended use and totally sold on the Rohloff hub - biggest nuisance on the current bike is keeping the derailleurs gears clean.
But I'm not yet completely sure about the handlebar setup. Before my tour I modified my old bike with the widest drop bars I could find, adding auxiliary brake levers on the tops.
Like a lot of drop bar users, I was on the hoods most of the time. I used the tops on off-road stretches, in busy traffic in towns and sometimes just for a change. I also used the low position on the "hooks" of the drops for maybe 10-20 % of the time to get a more aerodynamic position, either on long flat stretches on good road surfaces or when struggling against headwinds.
Thorn strongly advises using flat bars instead of drops. For me they suggested their Flat Track bar with Ergon grips and bar-ends, with a longer stem than I use for drops. I reckon the main position on flat bars will be somewhere between my drop-bar "hood" and "tops" position, with hands much further apart and further forward than my drop-bar "tops" position. I will probably also set the flat bars slightly lower than the drops - I had the tops of the drops roughly the same height as the saddle. This main position with flat bars and Ergon grips should be much more suitable for the off-road stretches than my old setup.
The part I am least sure about is how to replace the "hooks" position. There are a lot of different bar-ends and extensions available. On a commuter bike with flat bars I have "ski-bend" type extensions, fitted inboard from the brake levers, position rather like daviddd55's photo:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v321/daviddd/DSCF1306.jpg).
These give a nice aerodynamic position, but I feel they are too close together. That doesn't matter too much on the commuter bike as it isn't used for long distances. If I put the "ski-bends" outboard from the brake levers they feel too far apart.
I was wondering if these would be good:
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/ergon-ergon-gp5-handlebar-grips-standard-prod28217/
Anybody used them?
The forward position looks as if it is roughly the same width as the main position, so should feel right if I get the main position right. And they have the advantage of the intermediate position, which involves turning the wrists through about 90°, a bit like with the SJS Ergo Control Bar ends:
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/sjsc-ergo-control-bar-end-grip-black-prod13134/
As I want to get the frame size right (different for drops and flat bars), I have bought a Flat Track bar and fitted it to my old bike to experiment with flat bar positions before ordering my Thorn.
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...I modified my old bike with the widest drop bars I could find, adding auxiliary brake levers on the tops.
Like a lot of drop bar users, I was on the hoods most of the time. I used the tops on off-road stretches, in busy traffic in towns and sometimes just for a change. I also used the low position on the "hooks" of the drops for maybe 10-20 % of the time to get a more aerodynamic position, either on long flat stretches on good road surfaces or when struggling against headwinds.
Martin, you've described my setup on Sherpa to a "T" (see: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=3896.0 ).
I'm afraid I cannot offer any useful suggestions wrt straight 'bars and extensions/bar-ends, but I can offer the data point that wide drop handlebars for heavy touring have worked well for me, and continue to do so on Sherpa. They're an equal but not superior solution, and if they work for a person, drop handlebars are still a viable solution. I would miss having the hooks as an option as they allow me to "ride inside my elbows" when dropped low into a strong headwind, as when I toured along The Netherlands' North Sea coast or in the regular 40+mph/64kph afternoon headwinds of America's Great Basin.Thorn strongly advises using flat bars instead of drops.
Yes, I know...and a look at photos of most current world/expedition touring bikes validates this recommendation; drop handlebars have become less popular with the general touring public over time.
My big problem with straight handlebars is my wrists and shoulders protest mightily unless my palms face each other when riding. This could be readily addressed with bar-ends as you have planned, and I think your reasoning and methodology are really sound in searching for an alternative to drops.
Have you considered the various clamp-on "drop/bar-end" combos one sees on the market? I'm pressed for time due to a dentist appointment, but when I return, I'll be happy to post a link to the one I have in mind.
I hope this helps in some way as an additional data point to ponder. It sure looks like you're on the right track, and I hope you find the ideal solution for you!
Best,
Dan.
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Martin, you've described my setup on Sherpa to a "T" (see: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=3896.0 ).
Yes. Looks very similar. I got used to the auxiliary brake levers very quickly, to the extent I found myself reaching for non-existant levers on the other two drop handlebar bikes I own!
I'm afraid I cannot offer any useful suggestions wrt straight 'bars and extensions/bar-ends, but I can offer the data point that wide drop handlebars for heavy touring have worked well for me, and continue to do so on Sherpa. They're an equal but not superior solution, and if they work for a person, drop handlebars are still a viable solution. I would miss having the hooks as an option as they allow me to "ride inside my elbows" when dropped low into a strong headwind, as when I toured along The Netherlands' North Sea coast or in the regular 40+mph/64kph afternoon headwinds of America's Great Basin.Yes, I know...and a look at photos of most current world/expedition touring bikes validates this recommendation; drop handlebars have become less popular with the general touring public over time.
Drops worked well for me on my last tour, but (like straight handlebars) they have their drawbacks, notably on the off-road sections. One of my reasons for wanting a Thorn Nomad is to do a bit more off-road.
My big problem with straight handlebars is my wrists and shoulders protest mightily unless my palms face each other when riding. This could be readily addressed with bar-ends as you have planned, and I think your reasoning and methodology are really sound in searching for an alternative to drops.
I don't have this problem. I quite often do long all-day rides on a Bromptons. First of all I had the M-bar set up. This is a bit like Thorn Comfort bars, but straighter. Ergon grips helped with hand comfort, and I added short bar-ends later (long ones would interfere with folding), which helped a little with the headwind issue.
When Brompton introduced their new P-bar I changed to this. The P-bar is an unusual design with a fairly high straight position, and another more or less straight position several centimetres lower and more or less vertically below, sort of like a butterfly bar tilted through 90 degrees. I get on OK with this setup, the low position is lower than I would really like but is a boon to morale in headwinds - I typically use it 10 to 20 % of the time.
Have you considered the various clamp-on "drop/bar-end" combos one sees on the market? I'm pressed for time due to a dentist appointment, but when I return, I'll be happy to post a link to the one I have in mind.
My own take on the clamp-on "drop/bar-end" combos is that if I go down this road I might as well use genuine drops! The latest offering from Thorn (described in the thread "Gilles Berthoud Drop bar rohloff changer and thorn rohloff changer drop bars") looks like a neat solution to the issue of combining Rohloff shifter and drops.
I intend playing with various flatbar/bar end combinations for several weeks/months on my old mountain bike/tourer - if I don't find what I think is a good compromise I shall simply go against Thorn's recommendation and ask for drops.
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Update on my handlebar trials.
I've done about a thousand kms of trials with two different styles of flat bars and various bar-end types and positions.
Flat bars and long bar-ends worked well for me on short rides. They had little effect on my average speed, and I find them better than drops for off road. But on rides longer than 2-3 hours I started getting numbness in my left hand. I damaged my left thumb in the early '90s when doing house repairs, this may be why only my left hand is affected.
I don't get this numbness on long rides with drop bars, probably because of the different hand orientation when riding on the hoods (which is most of the time).
Oddly, I don't get the problem when doing long rides with my P-bar Brompton. I think that may be due to the flexibility of the P-bars combined with the damping effect of the Brompton's titanium forks.
So I shall be going for drop bars on my new Thorn. This means a shorter stem and different frame. Andy Blance advised going for a New Raven rather than a Nomad, as he thought it would be more suitable for drop bars and would be sufficient to cope with my touring loads, so long as I took care on off-road stretches.
Andy also confirmed my suspicion that the Berthoud shifter on the tops would probably interfere with proper operation of auxiliary bar top levers.
So for the shifter, I will probably be going with a standard Rohloff shifter. At present I rather like the idea of bar-end position on a Hubbub adapter, but Andy warned me that he considered this setup uncomfortable for prolonged use. So I have put a Nexus 8 gripshift shifter in the bar-end position on drop handlebars on my trial bike to see how I get on with it.
If it doesn't work out for me I will probably go for the extension bar solution, either under or over the handlebars.
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Hi Martin!
Thanks for the update on your trials, and congratulations on the new Thorn in the offing -- my, how exciting! Looking forward to hearing all about it and seeing photos, as well.
Andy also confirmed my suspicion that the Berthoud shifter on the tops would probably interfere with proper operation of auxiliary bar top levers.
Yes, this was a factor that helped decide me against the Berthoud shifter as well. Andy helpfully suggested an auxiliary brake lever could still be used on the other side, but I have found myself using both auxiliary brakes...when I use them. That is typically on steep downhills, as a way to move my weight back over the saddle.
I have also heard from a number of sources the Berthoud shifter is not so very well sealed against weather and dirt one could expect to encounter on extended tours. Also, it seemed to me it might well become very cold or hot to the touch, depending on weather. The rubber-covered plastic Rohloff appears to avoid these pitfalls.
I have put a Nexus 8 gripshift shifter in the bar-end position on drop handlebars on my trial bike to see how I get on with it.
I'm very much looking forward to hearing how this works for you, Martin. Trying to decide on the best location for the Rohloff shifter with drop handlebars was a major concern for me, and it has worked out wonderfully with the latest setup. I wish you equal success, no matter which location you choose.
All the best,
Dan.
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Andy helpfully suggested an auxiliary brake lever could still be used on the other side, but I have found myself using both auxiliary brakes...when I use them. That is typically on steep downhills, as a way to move my weight back over the saddle.
I thought of just having the left-hand brake, which is the front brake for me and therefore the most powerful. But decided against it.
Two of my main uses of the tops position are in towns, where the upright position helps me see over the tops of cars better, and going down some steep hills when it isn't possible to just let the bike roll fast and use the low position on the drops. On twisty descents being more upright helps air-braking. I'd rather have easy access to both brakes in these scenarios.
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Hi Martin!
Your use, requirements, and riding style sound very similar to mine. If you would like any specific photos or measurements from my setup to aid in your decision, just let me know and I will be happy to provide them to you. I understand your concern about making the "right" decision for yourself, and researched my choices just as carefully; it really pays in the end.
All the best,
Dan.
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Here is the Best Handlebars I have find to run with Rohloff shifter ::)
Pete....
:P
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Nice looking bars.
What make please?
Also, your front fender / mudguard?
Also, can you fit a bar bag onto the bars?
Thanks
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Nice looking bars.
What make please?
Also, your front fender / mudguard?
Also, can you fit a bar bag onto the bars?
Thanks
Hi
The bars are Jeff Jones Loop H-Bars
Front Mudguard is a new "Topeak Defender XC1"
Handlebar Bag? Only with a Thorn T-Bar! But i'm looking to making a custom bag to fit into to handlebar, more later....
Pete....
:-)
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Hi Pete!
Those handlebars of your surely look nice. If I weren't running drops, those are hands-down the ones I would choose myself. I have been experimenting with Nitto Arc 'bars on a recumbent I am building, and these have almost the same bend (except much heavier-duty, of course).
Yours is still one of the finest-looking Nomads I've seen, setup as it is with a front suspension for MTB-style touring. As jags would say...
"Class"!
Just beautifully kitted-out and assembled with such an eye for detail to your needs and purpose.
Best,
Dan.
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I like the look of the Jeff Jones Loop H-Bars (http://thelazyrando.wordpress.com/2012/08/27/jeff-jones-loop-h-bar-review/), but they are beyond my budget here in the UK. Found the wackily named Humpert Space Bugel Handlebars (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Humpert-Space-Bugel-Handlebars-Cruiser-MTB-Town-25-4mm-/220859736575?clk_rvr_id=382532566447&mfe=sidebar) which are a similar design (backsweep is less at 34 degrees).
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Those Humpert Space Bugels* look very nice indeed, Erudin. Very nice, and a excellent price. You're right...a bit less sweep than the Jones bars, but honing in on a similar target.
Please let us know how they work for you over time.
All the best,
Dan.
*Apparently, "bügel" (with the umlaut) translates roughly to "stirrup". Ah, now that makes sense; the space bugels do provide a sort of "stirrup" for mounting accessories and such in the forwar part of the arc.