Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Non-Thorn Related => Topic started by: jags on January 12, 2015, 12:34:53 AM
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[Minor edit to allow topic splitting. -- Dan.]
mind you i have to say i'm a big fan of carbon road bikes, if ever i get my Dolan built it sure will be a strunner to good for this geek . ;D
but the steel bike thats been made today are only fantastic, talking lightweight road bikes like Lemond And Seven why they can't do this with touring bikes is a mystery to me.
my son has taking ownership of my lovely Raleigh 753 completly stripped it down ,he's putting carbon forks on it ::) 8) a mix of campag shimano that should be interesting if it works new wheels ,i have no doubt he will get it spot on to what works good to see it getting a new life .
i have a sneky feeling my lovely carbon frame wont last as long as my steel raleigh but what the hell if i get another 6 years cycling from it happy days,i'll take up bird watching or bushcraft when the legs turn to jelly.
jags.
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the steel bike thats been made today are only fantastic, talking lightweight road bikes like Lemond And Seven why they can't do this with touring bikes is a mystery to me.
Anto!
The luggage of a touring bike adds weight and static and dynamic loads apart from the rider, and in different places. The chainstays have to be made longer so heels will clear panniers mounted on a rear rack, for example. Make those thin, lightweight stays longer and you begin to have problems with rear-frame whippiness. Also, upright frame angles that give wish-quick handling on a go-fast road bike aren't so stable when touring with a load. There's other reasons, but the core of it is, the lightweight steel road frames are really optimal as...lightweight steel road frames. Tourers need more "meat" in just the right places and slightly different geometry to work really well at the task for long days hauling, and this makes them heavier and less quick-feeling...which is a good thing!
The ideal solution is (at least) one of each kind! :D
All the best,
Dan.
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But dan most of the weight is carrier on the rear so no need for heavy forks. no need for heavy seat post/ bottom bracket/most of them are way to heavy, saddle brooks are omfy but hey they weigh 5 times as much as a fifik saddle mudguards are evil buy a lightweigh clip on mudguard works everybit as good.excellent set of strong lightweight wheels and your away in a hack.
buy or use or make light panniers ,cut your load in half buy lightweigh gear .
yeah i still believe a super strong lightweigh steel touring bike is possible .
btw i'm talking here touring bikes that use tarmac not rough roads of sand .
jags.
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But dan most of the weight is carrier on the rear so no need for heavy forks. no need for heavy seat post/ bottom bracket/most of them are way to heavy, saddle brooks are omfy but hey they weigh 5 times as much as a fifik saddle mudguards are evil buy a lightweigh clip on mudguard works everybit as good.excellent set of strong lightweight wheels and your away in a hack.
buy or use or make light panniers ,cut your load in half buy lightweigh gear .
yeah i still believe a super strong lightweigh steel touring bike is possible .
btw i'm talking here touring bikes that use tarmac not rough roads of sand .
jags.
Anto,
You do talk some rubbish ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
John
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i know i know ;D ;D ;D i was gonna add a lot more but dan might give me the red card ;D
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Anto...
I've mentioned Slovenian cyclist Igor Kovse -- Iik -- to you before (as have others), but it is worth noting again: He does exactly what you say, and is the model for ultralight bike touring. You might enjoy taking another look at his setups, but be aware...no 2-3 person tents for him! No chair! Ultralight sometimes means sawing extra supports from his aluminum carriers (he carries so little, the extra supports aren't needed). One might disagree with his methods, but the results are unassailable. I've followed him from his first posts and admire him and his methods greatly and have been influenced by him, though it wouldn't suit me to adopt them wholesale.
Among many references now available, see:
http://ultralightcycling.blogspot.com/
http://www2.arnes.si/~ikovse/weight1.htm
http://www2.arnes.si/~ikovse/
http://www.trentobike.org/byauthor/IgorKovse.html
http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/?page_id=87118
http://www.ctc.org.uk/file/member/201203038.pdf
Here's a similar approach: https://frankburns.wordpress.com/tag/cycle-touring/
Another, less extreme way to accomplish ultralight touring on the lightest of bikes is via credit card touring. If you'll be buying your meals, you don't need cookpots and stove. If you'll be sleeping in lodging, no need for tent, pad, and sleeping bag. Many toiletries can be found at a hotel front desk on request (and payment). Calculate the weather and season accordingly, and you might make do carrying only a spare set of clothing and a Tyvek jacket against the odd shower.
Weight begets weight. My Nomad weighs 20kg all by itself, dry(!), but I need it to haul the massive quantities of water and food needed for solo desert and wild touring when nothing else would do. It has also become a dandy substitute MTB for me, encouraging many an off-road foray amidst unladen 200km day rides on paved roads. The rando bikes work better for longer paved riding, but nothing in my stable beats the Nomad for low-maintenance hauling capacity in a compact package.
All the best,
Dan.
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What I really liked about Ray Jardine's book wasn't so much the weight saving tricks but the philosophical outlook. Rather than traveling a bit like in outer space, i.e. isolating yourself from the environment and carrying everything you need, the idea is to study the environment, work with the environment, get intimate with the environment. That's the great fun of travel, anyway! If it is just an athletic event, you could be on a trainer in a fixed location!
The great idea is to fit the way of traveling to the terrain. The game is not to focus on equipment lists and comparing equipment options, but to study the resources and challenges of the terrain: the people, the climate, etc. How do you want to interact with the world?
I have heard that in places like India and China, for the most part it makes no sense to attempt camping. Of course China is huge and diverse so it depends where you are in China. But mostly there are people everywhere and you can find an inexpensive roof.
Versus e.g. a route like the Great Divide Trail in the USA.
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Have to look at those links later on Dan .
that guy is a complete nutter ,fair play to him for going that route but a tad extreame. ;D ;D.
there a guy on on bikeforums that tours on a cervelo carbon bike set up is much like frank burns i think he has a super system. if i had a super lightweigh tent i reckon i could do overnighters on the dolan emmm well maybe not but i live in hope (most of the time)
i willhave a closer look later on the frank burns set up looks very interesting.
thanks dan i'll have u going ultralight yet. ;D ;D
anto.
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thanks dan i'll have u going ultralight yet.
Oh, but I have, Anto, and still do on occasion, carrying all I need in my two small Ortlieb SportPackers (all my clothing, sleeping bag, pad, food, stove and cookpots) and atop my rear rack (tent). Around 20 lbs all-up for the contents. Add a handlebar bag, and I've got an embarrassment of room.
I just can't do it for my long self-supported solo tours in the middle of nowhere.
Horses for courses! ;D
Agreed on Ray Jardine's wholly-integrative philosophy, Jim. It is a nice approach, also admired by me.
All the best,
Dan.
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Ray Jardine is a curse to real outdoor people in my opinion. He and his wife have made money from his approach. The problem is, that in real life UK at least, the climate is not suited to Bushwhacking!
John
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My last tour I decided to use my 2004 Long Haul Trucker with 700c wheels since it would all be on road, no off road. The prior three tours I did were on my Thorn Sherpa with 26 inch wheels.
Nobody has ever accused the Long Haul Trucker of being too light, but quite frankly on my last tour I found the frame flex to be too significant for me and I was wishing I had my Sherpa instead.
If somebody feels that my Brooks is 5 times as heavy as it should be, that is their opinion and I encourage them to use a saddle that weighs one fifth the weight.
I however did buy Tubus Ergo and Logo EVO racks to replace my Surly racks that were much heavier, I think the Logo EVO is even stiffer than the Surly was.
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Dan this wee bike i have here beside me would be good for light touring my buddy also gave me a beamrack for it so it will carry my barley no problem ,(man oh man i should have kept that akto ).
had a good look at that guys blog his load wasnt unlike mine except for the tent,defo the way to go,
john there ain't nothing wrong with making money as long as u don't rob anyone to get it. ;)
anto.
Mike i had the brooks b17 specialon my sherpa fantastic saddle no douby but my light fizik alanti is every bit as comfy thats the truth, oh and nothing wrong with a bit of flex in a frame inbuilt suspension.
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The problem is, that in real life UK at least, the climate is not suited to Bushwhacking!
John
Have to disagree there a bit John, going light weight or ultralight has been going on in the UK for years with bikes, kayaks and on foot. It all boils down what one is prepaid to put up with and going ultralight you have to be dam sure you know how to use that kit correctly. That said, it can all go "Pete Tong" (wrong) very quickly if you skill, ability, kit and judgement are flawed, as many mountain marathon runners have found to their cost! that applies to all three disciplines above. Admittedly you do have to have the determination and commitment to get any real enjoyment from that type of activity in the UK , the VISA card option sound the best way to light at my age ;D
Andy
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i like the idea of sleeping in a tent but i'm the worst in the world just can't relax in one.
i still think going as light as possible is the way to go ,no excused really when you think of the gear thats out there well if a fella could afford it that is. ::).knowing your gear and how to use it is spot on Andy all down to experience i guess..
did i ever tell you about my france tour ;D ;D the time i camped in the mourn mountains in a feckin storm with a lunitic ::).
i'll never learn thats a fact.
anto.
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Well there is one thing you have learned from those experiences Anto! that it's survivable ;D
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Yip Andy here to tell the tale ;D ;D
life is only a bubble you blow in then you blow out so enjoy it while we can. ;)
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Have to disagree there a bit John, going light weight or ultralight has been going on in the UK for years with bikes, kayaks and on foot. It all boils down what one is prepaid to put up with and going ultralight you have to be dam sure you know how to use that kit correctly. That said, it can all go "Pete Tong" (wrong) very quickly if you skill, ability, kit and judgement are flawed, as many mountain marathon runners have found to their cost! that applies to all three disciplines above. Admittedly you do have to have the determination and commitment to get any real enjoyment from that type of activity in the UK , the VISA card option sound the best way to light at my age ;D
Andy
Hello,
I've been camping/cycling for 55 years! I have now at long last the very best quality lightweight kit that is 'affordable'. It all works very well. Take a look here:- www.pbase.com/leftpoole
I have had some heavy gear in the past because lightweight was not light at all!
My mention of Ray Jardine appears to have been interpreted incorrectly or maybe written incorrectly?
What I should have said:- Jardine has made money from 'his' lightweight ideas, but in my opinion most of it is nonsense when it comes down to UK use and comfort. Indeed even Chris Townsend the outdoor living backpacking hobo who earns from book and magazine writing the same as Ray Mears) has now scorned some of Jardines 'ideas' as impracticable.
By all means sleep in a ditch if that's what turns you on, but for me a kilo in weight tent will do nicely. Along with titanium pots etc and a stove of choice...
All the best,
John
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One could of course leave one's physical bike at home and take an imaginary one to ride thus drawing this thread to a light-hearted but perhaps philosophically significant conclusion. ;)
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One could of course leave one's physical bike at home and take an imaginary one to ride thus drawing this thread to a light-hearted but perhaps philosophically significant conclusion. ;)
That is exactly what Anthony is going to do!
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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;D
I agree with John in finding the ultimate in weight-saving minimalist cycle-camping has not been for me. A 1kg tent (which I used for some 35 years) served me well, but I really wouldn't have wanted to go lighter for reasons of durability, personal comfort and preference, and appropriateness to the conditions and need for use.
One thing I have found for me, in my use, is (super) ultralight camping gear may work fine for a period of time, but items that are even a little more robust can last for a much longer period, making even slightly heavier stuff a better investment for me. There have been times when I have ridden far into the night to "make distance" and when I finally stopped, fatigued and weary (I've found the states to be additive, rather than synonymous), I would occasionally fail to see the blackberries woven through the grass beneath my tent, or the sharp rocks I would have easily spotted in daylight, both of which can wreak havoc on the lightest of silnylon floors but are shrugged off by my slightly heavier urethane-coated floor sitting atop a footprint/ground cloth. A sleeping bag can be unzipped and used as a quilt or a bag, but a dedicated quilt lacks that versatility and hasn't been so well suited for me as a frequent side-sleeper. Ultralight panniers are fine in and of themselves, but sharp-cornered pokey things can eventually work their way through with sufficient vibration and distance, or very quickly if the bike is innocently leaned even with great care against a rough-stuccoed building or a tree with coarse bark or even laid down on gravel 'cos the prop stand (Click-Stand in my case) was left home to save weight. Such things prove to be false weight-economy for me. If I were an adventure racer, the choices would tip sharply in favor of the lightest possible approach.
My personal weather experience also agrees largely with John's UK in that Oregon can be a Very Wet bit of country for 8-9 months of the year...and then I often go to the other extreme in its desert regions in high summer. Not all shelters will do for all conditions and I've been grateful for my heavier tent over a lightweight tarp in many a thundering wind-driven downpour or where bugs and snakes predominate.
For me, even (maybe especially!) controversial ideas get the creative juices flowing, and I do appreciate Ray Jardine making me think...enough to buy his book to learn more about what propounds. I also like his idea of an integrative approach to Trail Life, and have adapted my own version, but most often in very different ways from what he endorses, usually because his methods often would not work well for me in the places where I ride and camp.
In the bigger picture, it is interesting to see how individual voices and philosophies have emerged and spawned whole schools of thought in the Internet Age. Grant Petersen, Andy Blance, Ray Jardine, Iik...these and many more present their views of what works as they know it. Many have a business interest that has developed from their personal interest, so naturally some marketing is involved in addressing what they see as an unmet need. Many of us were doing many of the same things in our cycling and camping and cycle-camping for decades before electronic communities, but having a vocal spokesperson gives a rallying point as well as a common frame of reference, especially helpful for newcomers who lack experience and are looking for ready-made solutions to get up to speed quickly with a "systems" approach, precanned and ready to go. Nothing wrong with that, but a few years down the road and with use, no doubt those ready-made packages will be altered to suit personal preference.
For me, I still run the gamut of Camping Solutions from Ultralight (my Short On Luck kits to address unexpected strandings) to Expedition, depending on need and appropriateness. I rarely have the same inventory for any two trips. This year, one of my goals is to change the nature of my long-distance day rides, to split them roughly in two so I don't have to turn around at the halfway point in order to make it home in one go. That is getting a little old, and I think turning a long day ride into two days with some added distance to explore new areas once I get there will make things fresh again and add a whole new dimension of fun. "Oh, look! I took a long day-ride, and a tour broke out!" Carrying a minimalist kit (light sleeping bag for >freezing conditions, small/light pad, my 1-person tent and footprint, a beer can spirit stove and small cup to boil water plus rain gear and food for a couple of meals in only two front panniers) for such occasions makes a lot of sense for "overnighters", less so for my self-supported trips away from ready resupply for 4-5 weeks. Yes, the usefuless of that minimalist kit can be extended, but for me I begin to feel the lack of more comprehensive gear after a week or so, enough to make me pack differently for longer trips. A folding chair can be a really nice addition to Camp Life! ;)
All the best,
Dan.
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As my dearly beloved and many of my friends can attest, I almost always ride with "too much stuff". My bike has lots of "fruit", including three computers/navigators, seven running lights (besides the Dynamo head and tail lights), a frame bag for a hydration bladder, tyre pump, tripod and Click Stand, bar bag, top tube pouch for wallet and phone, saddle bag for tools and spares, two cables (for the Amparo frame lock and the n'Lock stem), full rain gear, etc. etc. This is for commuting and local riding. My touring setup is mostly additive (Dan I take a chair AND a table :D), but I drop off the running lights when adding my Ortleib bags fore and aft.
In all this stuff, it seems a bit pointless to spend heaps of money just to save even 200 grams. I am, however, always fascinated reading other people's anti-weight crusades, although I'm not likely to ever give up my creature comforts and gadget freakiness to try and emulate them. ;D
Here's a recent shot (not on tour). I've been meaning to do a proper rundown on Atilla the Nomad, since he's over 18 months old now, but I'll post it in the Gallery section.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7531/16228724202_f34361342e_b.jpg)
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Lovely bike and wonderful setup that is a joy to see, Sammy. If it makes you happy...why not?
All the best,
Dan. (...who is surely looking forward to all the details on this one)