Author Topic: Xtc Weight  (Read 6024 times)

joesoap

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Xtc Weight
« on: April 08, 2012, 11:41:35 pm »
Had my XTC short wheelbase for a year now. I have Rigida Grizzly rima on Deore LX hubs.  Deore LX drivetrain and XTR brakes. Nitto drop handlebars and an aluminium rack. brookes titanium saddle.Keep reading about the XTC described as a "lightweight" tourer. Mine weighs 30lbs. Isn't this pretty heavy?

Danneaux

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Re: Xtc Weight
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2012, 01:28:58 am »
Quote
Keep reading about the XTC described as a "lightweight" tourer. Mine weighs 30lbs. Isn't this pretty heavy?
Hi Joe!

I don't think that is too bad for a lightweight tourer. For comparison, my 58cm 1983/4 Centurion Pro Tour 15 weighs in at 31lbs/14kg configured thusly:
- Rear alu Blackburn rack
- Front alu Blackburn low-riders
- 3 alu bottle cages and bottles
- Zefal HPX pump
- SKS fenders and Planet Bike mudflaps
- computer, bell, MorganGrip handlebar covers, Brooks saddle, underseat tool/tube bag
- Sanyo BB dynamo, Sanyo Xenon headlight, and rear LED blinky
- Wheels are really light for a loaded touring bike -- Phil Wood hubs, 15g spokes and Mavic MA-2 rims with 32mm road slicks.
Bare, it weighs in at about 23.5lbs/10.6kg. It uses a heavier (.9/.6/.9mm wall thickness) Tange Champion #2. My other similar touring bikes weigh within a half-pound /.22kg of it. My 1989 Miyata 1000LT is right in there, as is my 1980 Centurion ProTour.

This bike is happiest with a maximum touring load of about 40lbs/18kg, but "can" manage up to about 50lb/23kg.

For comparison, your rims are pretty comparable, the drivetrain might be a few grams heavier, and the rest a wash except for the saddle (mine has steel rails).

No, sounds about right for how it is equipped for the intended job. When one is thinking of carrying a load of some sort, the bike needs to be constructed with that in mind. The frame will be heavier (larger diameter, thicker-walled tubing), will have purpose-built geometry, and the components will reflect use as well and are generally a bit on the heavier side as well. Most "standard" touring bikes weigh in about the same, give or take. Yours is a bit lighter than mine. Compare that to my Sherpa ( http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=3896.0 ), which is set up for expedition touring and weighs 40.6lbs/18.4kg with dry bottles as pictured. Yes, the Sherpa weighs 9.6lb/4.4kg more, but it is stable over far rougher ground with a much larger load (68.4lb/31kg) and is stable and manageable with that sort of load, whereas the lighter bike would feel like it was hinged in the middle.

Remember, "lightweight" refers not only to the weight of the bike, but to the loads it is intended to carry (as in "lighter-duty" touring).

Best,

Dan.

joesoap

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Re: Xtc Weight
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2012, 09:25:58 am »
Thanks for that Dan. It's the figure that bugs me I guess, the bike rides superbly. Are aluminium Blackburn racks guaranteed in any way? Has anyone known them to crack under their intended weight limit? (Whatever that may be?) I'm going coast to coast across Scotland soon with about 30 -35lbs total front and back. Will be doing a fair bit off road on tracks. I need to get a decent set of racks. Is it false economy not to buy SJS steel ones? Thoughts appreciated, Joe

jags

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Re: Xtc Weight
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2012, 10:15:58 am »
sounds good to me joe tubus racks are bullit proof or so i'm told ;)
but they are very good i have them on my sherpa no problems at all so far.
good luck with the scottish tour look up julk for some good routes.

Kuba

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Re: Xtc Weight
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2012, 11:05:52 am »
Are aluminium Blackburn racks guaranteed in any way? Has anyone known them to crack under their intended weight limit? (Whatever that may be?) I'm going coast to coast across Scotland soon with about 30 -35lbs total front and back. Will be doing a fair bit off road on tracks. I need to get a decent set of racks. Is it false economy not to buy SJS steel ones?

Well, with a bike such as the XTC it very much depends on the size of the frame, and of the rider. I had the largest version (595s or so) and with around 80 kg of myself and 20 kg of camping gear, food etc. there was just too much flex on the frame, even on tarmac. It was kind of okay with only rear panniers, but putting panniers both front and rear on Thorn racks upset the handling too much. I toured of Andalucia like that, but a few months later replaced the bike with a Raven Tour. The Raven is excellent for hauling heavier loads, also off-road, but nonetheless I miss the XTC for sportier, lightweight rides - it's the best bike I have ridden in terms of fun and handling with smaller loads. When I have the money, I will maybe order a frame like that, just Rohloff-friendly and with oversized tubing, from Kevin Syles. Or maybe just get the Sport Tour frame one day ???

On the other hand, my partner's XTC is medium size and she's much lighter than I at around 60 kg. Not only she has never complained about the flex, but she even wouldn't swap her bike when we had a chance to get a well-specced second-hand Raven Sport Tour for £800! Last summer we toured in the Indian Himalaya, and that involved some seriously bad roads and off-road tracks. She has a 2006 Balckburn alu rack in the back, and new-ish Thorn low rider in the front. And XR 2.0 tyres. With around 15-20 kg luggage the bike performed flawlessly! I carried the heavier load but was still super impressed with the XTC. So I would say, if your Blackburn rack looks well and you have not abused it in the past with very heavy loads, and if you're not as big as I, then you should be absolutely fine doing C2C. If you are not carrying more than 30-35 lbs then I would try first how it feels with all weight in the rear panniers (plus a saddlebag or a bar bag), and only if that feels awkward then I would consider front panniers.

BTW, all above refers to the fillet-brazed Reynolds 725 XTC, have no experience with 853 ones though would expect them to be fairly similar.

Danneaux

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Re: Xtc Weight
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2012, 06:23:31 pm »
Quote
Are aluminium Blackburn racks guaranteed in any way? Has anyone known them to crack under their intended weight limit? (Whatever that may be?) I'm going coast to coast across Scotland soon with about 30 -35lbs total front and back. Will be doing a fair bit off road on tracks. I need to get a decent set of racks. Is it false economy not to buy SJS steel ones? Thoughts appreciated, Joe
Joe,

I've broken a number of Blackburn racks and similarly-designed competitors, but it took some specific circumstances to to it. With light to normal loads, they last for decades and I am still happily using some that have never given trouble. Based on my experience, here's what I've found:

1) If you do what has come to be called "American-style" touring, the racks will likely be fine. This is a fairly new term to me (an American), but seems to refer to touring mostly on paved/smooth roads, and with a maximum of about 40 pounds on the bike in panniers and atop the rack (or racks, plural, meaning a front rack as well). If you do this and distribute the weight evenly, I don't envision a great likelihood of problems. If you use the triangulated alloy racks (Blackburn or otherwise) only to support the bottom of a large Carradice saddlebag or a racktop bag, I don't think you'd ever have a worry.
2) If you add rough roads or off-road riding to the mix, the likelihood of breakage is much greater, even with lesser loads (still in the recommended range).
3) If you push the weight limits, the likelihood of failure will increase commensurately. Still, on smooth roads, one will probably get away with it.
4) If you ride on rough roads or off-road *and* push the weight limits (as I did with every single triangulated aluminum rack I've broken), then it is only a question of time, and a breakage can be nearly immediate. This style of touring is coming to be regarded as "World Touring", "Adventure Touring", and yes, "Trekking" (effectively extended "hiking" with a bike and very heavy loads).

Most of my early touring was done in the US before the advent and ready availability of Tubus and other tubular steel racks. Compared to the old cast alu Pletscher that clamped to the seatstays and had only a single pair of rivet-attached legs, Blackburn's welded, triangulated alu rod rack was a revelation and truly worlds better. Trouble is, they are still aluminum, they are small-diameter aluminum, and they are welded; the three together make for problems when used at the extremes. Here's what I have found to fail, and where:

1) Inadequate welds that didn't surround the joint but effectively comprised "tack welds" that were never completed. The greatest number of my failures were where the last (and typically lightest) stay joined the rack-top. This stay was always smaller in cross-section (could be bowed with light finger pressure) and always had only a light welding bead on the underside, amounting to a tack weld. These were simple fatigue failures.
2) Undercut welds, such that welding created a stress riser below the joint, leading to failure.
3) Sharp differences in materials section, usually where the lower leg had been pressed or rolled into a flattish section for piercing or drilling the mounting eye. Again, these comprised stress risers in design or execution.
4) Inadequate material left around the mounting eye leading to outright fractures.
5) Tubular aluminum rather than solid aluminum rods, now found mostly on Chinese or Taiwan-produced racks. It just does not hold up, usually because the tubular wall section has been undercut by the welds. The larger-diameter tubular structure would otherwise seem a better choice.

Back in the day, all of these possible flaws were aggravated by panniers that did not mount securely and allowed bounce (i.e. non-surrounding steel top hooks and bottom spring-hook retention that allowed bags to sway, bounce, and loft -- and sometimes to leave the bike). The result was pretty substantial and severe second-order vibrations -- go through a pothole, and you get one impact. Fine, that's a first-order vibration. Trouble is, the bags would loft slightly above the rack and then crash down again for a second impact with the full bag weight concentrated about the mounting hooks, which were usually placed hard against a joint to locate the bag. Do that often enough, and it is like beating on the rack with a hammer, and greatly increases the chance of failure. This is what caused me to wrap my bags with external straps to compress the load against the rack, stabilize the contents, and secure the load limpet-like to the rack. It did wonders, and my breakage rate went way, way down. It does work and I always suggest an external compression strap or two regardless of rack, but I really think they're a necessity with aluminum racks.

As for warranty claims, well, I've never had any luck getting a replacement rack for my efforts. Blackburn claimed a lifetime replacement warranty for awhile here. I no longer see that except on their overseas products, and it appears Blackburn (nee' Bell Sports) is largely out of the rack business here in the States. My failures were largely in the pre-Internet days (late-1970s, 1980s, 1990s), and I never found a local bike shop willing to go through what they described as "the hassle and cost" of warranty replacement. I waited till there was a sale and replaced my own, substituting another bike for touring in the meantime.

I still use Blackburn front and rear racks on a number of my bikes, but only for lighter loads or for smoother roads and always with compression straps if I carry something other than a rack-top load. The last failure I had was with a factory-supplied copy on my 1989 Miyata 1000LT. It didn't survive Belgium's cobbles.

For heavy-touring use, I have gone to tubular steel racks of good quality and have yet to experience a failure. Tubus is widely used and highly regarded. I have personally seen several fail at the joints when the bicycle blows over in the wind and the rack impacts something on the way down (parking rack) or the ground itself. Online searches reveal this sort of damage is not covered by warranty, as it is not a normal "in use" sort of failure which seems fair to me. My Sherpa uses the Thorn Low -Loader Mark V front pannier racks and I went with a Surly Nice Rack Rear that weighs a lot -- far more than a Tubus and probably more than it needs to. I selected it because I preferred the design (smooth corners, extra crossbars, a closed "return" at the front that serves as a handle to swing the bike, tubular steel mounting tangs instead of alu, etc). I had a Surly Nice Rack Front and sold it on eBay (for more, see: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=2264.msg16241#msg16241 ). For me, it was wonderfully solid vertically and a wobbly disaster laterally because of the thin stainless mounting plates that allowed flex even unloaded. Others have had stellar luck and actually prefer them. Thorn make a very nice expedition-grade rear rack. If one prefers the Ortlieb/Tubus design and doesn't mind alu, then their budget-oriented RackTime line work beautifully with Ortlieb bags.

The full-custom, short-leg, triangulated cr-mo racks I bent-up and brazed for my Folder project are immensely strong. The rear one easily withstood my 172lb/78kg body weight standing on it when mounted to the bike's suspended swingarm. It is also possible to make a rack that is stronger than the eye it is mounted to or the bolts that secure it, so that is something to watch if you make your own.

The recipe for rack "non-failure" (or as close to it as you'll get) is:
1) Properly designed, welded and/or brazed tubular steel racks that are well-triangulated and mount securely.
2) Bags that mount securely.
3) Using one or more external compression straps per bag to secure the contents and bags to prevent second-order vibrations.
4) Keeping within the rack maker's maximum weight rating, and well within on bad road surfaces. South American Ripio, really bad American washboard, and Belgian cobbles all stress racks unduly, but the effects are greatly minimized with compression straps. They do wonders.
5) Distribute the load around the bike using front and rear panniers and front and rear racks; this way, each rack carries less weight.

Hope this helps,

Dan.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 07:05:13 pm by Danneaux »

JWestland

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Re: Xtc Weight
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2012, 03:10:34 pm »
FYI put my xtc on the scale with mud guards, sun cr rims, wellgo platform pedals and tubus cargo rack it weighed in at 12.8 kg

My steel singlespeed weighed in at 11 but no rack and the frame/fork isn't reinforced for carrying luggage

I would say 30 lbs isn't heavy for a very all round load carrying bike :)

Compare this with the old utility bikes that can weigh 20 kg eg 44 lbs :)

Pedal to the metal! Wind, rain, hills, braking power permitting ;)

brummie

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Re: Xtc Weight
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2012, 07:29:36 pm »
Andy B's (first?) XTC (lugged Reynolds 725) was reviewed in Cycling Today many moons ago - it weighed in at 25lbs inc. lightweight 531 Thorn rear rack. Lightweight Mavic 517 rims / DT revolution spokes & folding Panaracer Hi-road tyres helped keep the weight down.
 

sg37409

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Re: Xtc Weight
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2012, 09:07:06 pm »
13.2 kg in this guise.
(according to the bathroom scales)

Danneaux

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Re: Xtc Weight
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2012, 09:41:23 pm »
Oh, Stephen, that's a lovely, lovely bike!

If I recall correctly, that's the same frame we saw separately in your photos after a respray. My, it looks nice assembled -- even the saddle and rear pannier rack match for an integrated, full-custom appearance. Especially nice with the black components and mudguards and handgrips.

What's the old saying? "Good taste is never out of style", and this is a beauty. Very reasonable weight, too.

Very nice setting for the photo, too.

Best,

Dan.

JWestland

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Re: Xtc Weight
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2012, 11:27:53 am »
Are those the Shimano SPD one side/platform the other side pedal I spot? :)

Just put those on my XTC, SPD is surprisingly easy to learn. Hilarious panic unclip on first voyage but we've all been there... ;)

They are quite heavy though for the weight conscious here.

Crank Brother pedals are really light they just have their own cleat system, that's the only down side.
Pedal to the metal! Wind, rain, hills, braking power permitting ;)

sg37409

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Re: Xtc Weight
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2012, 10:15:54 pm »
yes, thats them. I like them though I find I never use the cleat side on this bike.
I have noticed discernable difference in saddle/pedal distance  between using my cycling shoes + cleats vs trainers on the platform side.
This isnt the reason I dont use cleats much on this bike.

I do still use cleats, but less and less so: this is more a reflection of the kind of riding I'm doing.

sg37409

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Re: Xtc Weight
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2012, 10:23:16 pm »
thanks Dan. I really like this bike. I dont think the RST is an XTC with a rohloff, the XTC is more comfortable.
Sadly it seems to be suffering from rust from the inside, but its still going strong. The saddle is has gone pretty black now from riding in jeans a lot, but the seatpost is now black so it kind of matches.

I think this bike is pretty lightweight/

JWestland

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Re: Xtc Weight
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2012, 03:32:18 pm »
Cleats feel pretty different...I like it but it all depends on riding style, distance etc :)
However if you don't use them, there are way lighter pedals than the double-side ones.

I believe you can get anti rust treatment for frames? Maybe worth looking into before rust gets damaging?
Pedal to the metal! Wind, rain, hills, braking power permitting ;)

sg37409

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Re: Xtc Weight
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2013, 10:28:38 am »


I took my XTC to france this year. Took this one with my phone camera. This is probably the last time I'll take the XTC, but it wont be its last visit to France hopefully. My youngest can now ride this with the saddle down, and makes more sense getting him on this than getting incrementall larger bikes for him. I'm also really glad to see him on it, and will free up a space in the garage for my Audax bike which is due back from the re-sprayers tomorrow :-)