Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Muppets Threads! (And Anything Else) => Topic started by: jags on January 10, 2013, 01:48:06 pm
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http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=57640
although i think this is a fantastic frame and super workmanship. how can you justify paying that kinda money for it :o
are we all being ripped of with these crazy prices like if a guy was on 150 quid a day and theres probable 100 quid worth of tubes in that frameset they buy it cost price ;) where does the 3 grand appear from.
:-\ ::) ???
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Easy answer to that is in the Middle ages one wore a huge cod piece to show off. Nowadays it's cars, bikes and other bling.
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...I am so far behind the times then LOL
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Would it do anything that the Spa Titanium can't do?
There again I keep thinking I may get Robin Mather to build me a steel frame and his are £1800.
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Well...
Overhead of keeping shop going
Wages/insurance
Keeping stock of items (tubing = expensive)
No pensions if you're self-employed
Did I mention insurance?
Promotion
Etc..
http://www.steve-goff-frames.co.uk/frames.shtml is a UK builder with very reasonably prices, seen a frame of him upclose and it's lovely :)
(me? I just said yes to a 1978 coicc san cristobal columbus frame...)
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jawine i know all that but still doesn't justify nearly 4 grand for one frame ,
sell a couple frames every week costs covered.
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Well...me and the manfriend had a thought on how to get a bike business.
Basically: There's an optimal price point. If a frame is 2 grand, it's a niche market.
And yeah I wouldn't spend that kind of money. But if others feel it's worth it...it's a valid business model :)
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http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=57640
although i think this is a fantastic frame and super workmanship. how can you justify paying that kinda money for it :o
are we all being ripped of with these crazy prices like if a guy was on 150 quid a day and theres probable 100 quid worth of tubes in that frameset they buy it cost price ;) where does the 3 grand appear from.
:-\ ::) ???
They tell you the self-image that the buyer would like to have of himself:
"The R440 is made for the power rider who pushes huge watts and has a tendency to flex, over-stress and break everything. Acceleration, braking, climbing and descending…the R440 does it all. This frame is made for the rider that excels in crits and competitive road racing that wants stiffness and performance first and foremost."
It's a bike for poseurs (French cod-euphemism for cafe racers and other posers).
Hey, I would look good sitting in the caff on the square in lycra with that bike parked nearby...
Andre Jute
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They tell you the self-image that the buyer would like to have of himself:
"The R440 is made for the power rider who pushes huge watts and has a tendency to flex, over-stress and break everything. Acceleration, braking, climbing and descending…the R440 does it all. This frame is made for the rider that excels in crits and competitive road racing that wants stiffness and performance first and foremost."
Yep, cod-piece ::) :D :D :D
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Acceleration, braking, climbing and descending…the R440 does it all. This frame is made for the rider that excels in crits and competitive road racing that wants stiffness and performance first and foremost."
It's good for braking? Wowsers. ;D
Actually it's GOOD bikes are getting expensive and attract people with more money than sense. As people always want to emulate the rich, even when the rich are dumb.
So usually that's not good. But it gets people cycling...as cycling is not for chums only that can't afford a car...
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I swear I've seen a Cervelo frame that cost $10,000 US. Some people just have loads of money and weak legs. That's all it is you know. All of it.
[minor language edit by Dan]
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Come on you can buy a Handbag for £25,000 UK!
I have had a few nice top end frames over the year and the ride was great!
You can have a frame tuned for you, build for and its like a good wine.
My Thorn frame is build for touring! and is over 3.5kgs!
I can buy a topend race bike frame that is only 0.670kgs! and climbing hills will be Fun.
You pay you money and get what you pay for!
How my Handbag only cost $98 NZ (£50 UK) i just can not go out and have anyone see me will it ?
Pete..........
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what colour did you get Pete the handbag that is ;D ;D ;D
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Brown!
I like Brown! Brown pants, tops, and Brown Handbags
Pwte !
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nice choice was it dark brown or more a tanney brown.long shoulder strap or just te too short handles for that bit of swing of the hips. ;D
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We want photos (of course).
Best,
Dan. (...who just read "man-bags" are the rage among NYC businessmen for carrying their electronics, but thinks they look just like the cyclists' musette bags that are the hot thing with Fixie-riding uni students here'bouts)
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Would you like a Photo!
Dark Brown..
Pete............
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i thought you'de have it up by now. ;D
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Would you like a Photo!
Well, sure! Andre has some nice bicycle luggage on his steed, made from repurposed handbags. They look fantastically good; very high-quality leather. They would have cost a fortune had they been bespoke for the bike.
My most-used bicycle tool roll used to be something else and I got it at the Goodwill thrift shop. A heavy-duty rubberized sort of fabric with zippered mesh compartments and such -- but was sneered at in a local bike shop 'cos it didn't have a name-brand sticker on it
These are even cooler than the bags used locally: http://www.velo-retro.com/musette.html
And! (to return to the thread topic) I saw one of these as I returned home on the bike path a few minutes ago: http://www.bikenhike.com/product/giant-tcr-advanced-sl-0-175142-1.htm USD$9,600. The fellow riding it fairly flew past me as I rode the Nomad.
Best,
Dan. (...who uh "wasn't really trying" or he'd have given that Giant a run for the money -- right! ::))
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ah cant wait any longer me eyes are starting to close i'm knackered.nite nite all.
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There's a twofold problem with leather on a bike. If it is really fine, like the ladies' Italian leather handbag I use for a saddlebag, it is thin and splits after a few years in the sun; I paid only about thirty or forty euro for that one on Ebay, delivered, so it will be no great loss if it wears out in seven or eight years, but if I bought it at retail for 500, which is what the sticker said, forgeddaboutit. If the leather is thicker, it weighs too much. like the fancy washbag I use as a handlebar bag. So leather bike luggage has to be a happy mean, thick enough leather to last a reasonable time, but not so thick as to weigh a ton. That essentially means that full-leather luggage on a bike can't be too big, certainly not huge touring panniers. (And that's before they soak up their own weight of water -- and then some -- in a good persistent rain...) It's for that reason, rather than cost, because most of the cost is not in the materials but the labour, that Brooks' bigger bike bags are canvas, with just leather trim.
I used to use a canvas doctor's bag from La Madrilene in Paris that a girl gave me when I was a student (it had belonged to her grandfather, a noted psychiatrist) as a rack top bag, but it was a venerable antique with nostalgic and professional provenance in one of my professions, and fragile, and being damaged, so I stopped, But that would be the ideal bag, even having straps positioned just right to strap it to a rack.
I have proper branded cyclist's luggage in racktop and handlebar bags from Agu, and I like them for their functionality (they're superbly designed and made, and definitely waterproof) on less expensive bikes, but on my Kranich they just look cheap, like I fitted them without due consideration for the rest of the bike. As Dan says though, they were horribly expensive because all branded cycling gear is.
What I find is that, regardless of how attractive any of your luggage is for a particular purpose, none of it is all-purpose. I particularly hated the absolutely best bags for touring from a widely respected German maker because their roll tops, clearly the best thing for a tourer out in all weathers, for casual shopping panniers were just a nuisance. I kept them for a few weeks only because I loved the signal yellow they came in so much. By the same token I love the big, clumsy, ugly, totally inelegant Basil Cardiff pannier basket, because it works so well on an all-purpose utility bike. (For me, anyway. It's open-topped, but I live in a low-crime area, so nothing has ever disappeared from my basket when I have left the bike unattended with stuff in the basket.) Mine is tacky from use because until recently it was almost permanently on the bike; it only came off because I made a determined effort to slim the bike down both in width and in weight. You just chuck in a jacket, or a paint kit, or your brownbagged sammi, and off you go. But it does make you look a bit like a hausfrau out on her shopping, which might put off the more image-conscious cyclists.
Andre Jute
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Wot's so wrong with bling ? As long as it's locally sourced it just recycles money into the economy. (Thank heavens that my late father can't read this !)
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Wot's so wrong with bling ? As long as it's locally sourced it just recycles money into the economy. (Thank heavens that my late father can't read this !)
don't be to sure about that. ;)
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Carradice is still made in England, high-end Conti tires are made in Germany (I love their ad with the 4 hardcore looking women that work in factory) Steve Goff/Lee Cooper and many other small builders are still going strong.
If you pay em they do you as much bling as you want chrome plated frame plz lol
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Hi All!
Some interesting questions at the root of the "expensive frame" thread, looking at what constitutes "good value" vs "over the top".
On the one hand, good value-for-money is always appreciated. Sometimes, that comes at a modest price and sometimes not. With high-priced items, sometimes the added value is incremental and disproportionately small given the overall cost; other times, one is paying for intangibles, like super-fine craftsmanship which is often unseen, a bit like finishing the back-sides of cabinet drawers in finely-crafted woodworking.
Here in the States, at least, the very presence of a visible name brand adds value to what is sometimes a very basic, even ordinary product. Sunglasses now commonly appear with the manufacturer's name on the temples or even silkscreened or etched on the upper margins of a lens. I recently bought some athletic trainers that happened to carry the manufacturer's name the entire length of the shoe as a design element. While a part of me feels I should be receiving sponsorship monies for wearing them, they were on sale for half price, making them a good value for me despite the hugely-displayed name.
I guess the question for each buyer/user comes down to individually-defined "value" -- however they choose to define that! For those who are more money-conscious, that value might be in performance-for-price, with perhaps some compromise on finish. For others, "only the best" will do, and that might require the incremental improvements only available in a top-line product, made so by the extra labor and care or more more costly materials required to produce such an outcome. Then, too, some value isn't seen until many years have passed and the superior product continues to outlast lookalikes made of lesser materials or with poorer craftsmanship. Some "classic' names persist to this day based on well-deserved reputations...and some are merely trading on names and reputations made in days gone by.
I think the reasons behind buying decisions are as personal as, well, personality, and the benefit of that is economic stimulus and a push for product development and variety. There's *always* market for a better mouse-trap -- or maybe just one made in a different color or with different materials. No bad thing; this makes the world a but less boring and spurs innovation and product differentiation to prevent a bland landscape of "me too" production.
Some recent expensive purchases proved to have poor value for me when I found some significant flaws in how they worked in my use, in meeting my needs. Despite careful market research and due diligence, they just didn't pan out. On the other side, I've occasionally been surprised at the remarkable value I've found in lesser products by obscure manufacturers. Manufacturing and sourcing models are all changing, and the final product we buy is often assembled from many smaller products from a variety of sources instea dof being made entirely in-house by a single firm. This has resulted in unprecedented recalls in the automotive market as things like air bags prove faulty in otherwise reliable vehicles.
Having tootled around on touring bikes and never raced, I'm not sure I could discern the difference between a USD$5,000 carbon-framed bike and one costing twice that much (never ridden either, so I can't say). I likely experience a far more noticeable contrast when I switch between my 60-70kg Nomad loaded with expedition load and my unladen 14.5kg rando bike; the comparison feels like supertanker-to-rocketship, but I soon adjust either way and each is the much-loved appropriate tool for the task.
Some might view the super-expensive bike as a vehicle for poseurs, but if it makes the rider feel that much more special or adds that little but more satisfaction or enjoyment to each Sunday ride 'round the park, who's to say it isn't worth it? There can be real joy in operating fine, light, precision-crafted equipment -- even at a fraction of its potential -- and one needn't be a professional to enjoy it and realize some benefit in use.
In the end, you pay your money for what you want and you get what you get. Over time, reputations are made, and trends develop, and word of mouth spreads, and good decisions can be made regardless of price.
I'd be interested to hear what constitutes "good value" or "worth for money" in your eyes. Build quality? Innovation? Longevity? Fitness for purpose? Repairability? Reliability (so repairability isn't an issue!)? Aesthetics? Name brand? There must be as many reasons as there are points in space or stars in the sky. Me? I've got a soft spot for finely-crafted lugwork -- chromed is even better! -- but will happily go with TiG'd joints if that gets the job done and meets my overall needs. Functionally, my welded Nomad with oversize tubing is just as pretty to my eyes as my bikes with hand-cut chromed lugs and traditional tubing diameters. Horses for courses and...I like both! So...what do you really value in bicycles, and what makes it worth the money? Can "super expensive" frames really be "worth it"?
Best,
Dan. (...who thinks the stars aligned for really great value-for-cost in cars and bicycles in 1989)
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Hi All,
I have had a few PM about if I'm OK or Upset about remarks posted in this Port :o
All is OK, with you all on this post ;) (some times I do need and do just walk away when someone asks how to fix some thing and I get cut down by people who Do not know what they are talking about :( )
I have been busy looking at buying a new Bike frame (a light bike frame) to help make me a better rider... ???
Here you go a photo of a low cost and an expensive one..
(http://www.onza.com/uploads/products/images/onza_gen_26.jpg)
Low end Trials Bike.
(http://www.tribalzine.com/IMG/jpg/Crewkerz_Cleep_001.jpg)
High end (expensive) Trials Bike
I'm looking for a good mid range last years frame only on sale at a low cost ;D
Pete all cool 8)
Note: You all on this post are cool and we were just having a little fun :-* and yes I may have to post a photo of a few of my man bags ;)
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good so please don't pay much heed to my smart comments its just anto having the craic. ;)
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good so please don't pay much heed to my smart comments its just anto having the craic. ;)
All Good
Maybe you need a new Bike with No Seat?
Pete :P
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i dont think so pete i'm sitting here in agony my back is killing me i think i strained it yesterday doing some work. ::)
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Hi Pete!
As a hobbyist framebuilder, I remain fascinated by such trials bikes and the incredible strength of their designs. They really are purpose-built, and seeing them used by those who know how is truly amazing.
All the best,
Dan.
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My most-used bicycle tool roll used to be something else and I got it at the Goodwill thrift shop. A heavy-duty rubberized sort of fabric with zippered mesh compartments and such -- but was sneered at in a local bike shop 'cos it didn't have a name-brand sticker on it
http://vintagebikecave.com/shop/hdb038-brooks-copper-plated-bicycle-saddle-badge/
(http://vintagebikecave.com/wp-content/uploads/HDB0381.jpg)
;)
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bicycle tool roll...sneered at in a local bike shop 'cos it didn't have a name-brand sticker on it
http://vintagebikecave.com/shop/hdb038-brooks-copper-plated-bicycle-saddle-badge/
;D
Best,
Dan. (...who is thinking "That solves that!" ::))
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Or change bikeshop :P
I can't say I am knowledgeable enough to discern between high-end frames/lower end ones (bar weight and finish) providing both are made with the same quality. There's not fancy brands like Ribble/Dolan that do you probably just as good (or very, very)nearly a bike as Colnago/Bianchi for about half the cash.
Often it's all in the head no doubt. I like handmade frames as they have a name and a person to them. It's not a big brand but a small business of somebody who turned their hobby into work and likes to go to work.
Well...that's how I imagine it at least!
Is my hand fillet brazed in UK XTC frame technically better than a TIG welded made in Taiwan frame? Probably not.
Did Thorn make the right call moving production to Taiwan? Probably.
But if I ever save up big for a bike it will *most likely* be a handmade frame. Again, all in the head :)
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http://www.rapha.cc/mercian/?cm_mmc=email-_-130813-_-img-_-mercian
i love old school builders these guys are brilliant.
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Is my hand fillet brazed in UK XTC frame technically better than a TIG welded made in Taiwan frame? Probably not.
Did Thorn make the right call moving production to Taiwan? Probably.
Thorn is probably not the best example anyway; they don't charge for the name but a fair price for the physical bike you ride away on. What makes a good custom bike such a pleasure to own and use is the obsessive attention given to every detail; if the details are slighted, it isn't worth having. But the main thing about Thorns is that they are made by obsessives. You can read reams of Andy Blance agonizing over the smallest detail of the frame, and every component, right out in public. You can see where he and his wife tested the details in some pretty rough places. You know what you're paying for: the maker as much as invites you to add it up, and challenges you to find that much technical advantage cheaper somewhere else.
In 2009 I analysed an extreme example of the sort we want at
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topicsearchin/rec.bicycles.tech/WHY$20A$20WATERFORD$20BIKE$20IS$20A$20JOKE (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topicsearchin/rec.bicycles.tech/WHY$20A$20WATERFORD$20BIKE$20IS$20A$20JOKE)
when I priced a Waterford frame held up to me as the ne plus ultra by American roadies hounding me for having bought a German bike, and discovered the frame alone cost more than my complete, fully fitted bike (Rohloff, SON, BUMM, Magura, Schwalbe, Brooks, the best of everything, with custom components made to suit the balloon tyres where necessary). The irony is that Waterford is the premium line of Paramount, the parent firm of Schwinn, who invented the balloon-tyred beach cruiser, of which my Utopia Kranich is a sort of hugely developed distaff cousin (it is a bike designed from the 60mm Big Apples up), whereas Schwinn are stuck in a time warp, charging huge sums for chrome plating while offering nothing but their name to justify charging five times as much as Utopia for the frame and fork. Or more than five times as much as Bob Jackson, or four times as much as Mercia, which Anto likes, and I do too. Mind you, they paint the name Waterford huuuuge on the down tube so nobody poorer than the person who bought it can miss it. I think that may be the point, your bike's expensive name as ostentatious exclusivity.
Andre Jute
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In 2009 I analysed an extreme example of the sort we want at
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topicsearchin/rec.bicycles.tech/WHY$20A$20WATERFORD$20BIKE$20IS$20A$20JOKE (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topicsearchin/rec.bicycles.tech/WHY$20A$20WATERFORD$20BIKE$20IS$20A$20JOKE)
when I priced a Waterford frame held up to me as the ne plus ultra by American roadies hounding me for having bought a German bike, and discovered the frame alone cost more than my complete
Wow, I read a couple of pages of that thread and had to bale on it. A charming bunch aren't they! Most of them dim witted (to say the least), many other phases come to mind. Best off out of it, I'd say.
You're better off on this site Andre.
:o
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Wow, I read a couple of pages of that thread and had to bale on it. A charming bunch aren't they! Most of them dim witted (to say the least), many other phases come to mind. Best off out of it, I'd say.
You're better off on this site Andre.
:o
Here in Ireland we say "I knooooow" in a long-drawn out tone, very meaningful. Why do you think I hang out on this forum? And report most of my DIY experiments here? The terrible thing is that RBT was once the home base of great bicycle engineers and mechanics like Jobst Brandt and the late lamented Sheldon Brown. Sic transit gloria.
Of course it isn't the place, it's the attitude of the members that make a forum great or, shall we just say -- otherwise.
Andre Jute
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'Glad you're here with us, Andre.
The same goes for the lot of you! ;D With a different attitude, this Forum would be a very different place. One needn't go far for examples of just how different things might be.
All the best,
Dan.
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Thorn is probably not the best example anyway; they don't charge for the name but a fair price for the physical bike you ride away on. What makes a good custom bike such a pleasure to own and use is the obsessive attention given to every detail; if the details are slighted, it isn't worth having. But the main thing about Thorns is that they are made by obsessives. You can read reams of Andy Blance agonizing over the smallest detail of the frame, and every component, right out in public. You can see where he and his wife tested the details in some pretty rough places. You know what you're paying for: the maker as much as invites you to add it up, and challenges you to find that much technical advantage cheaper somewhere else.
In 2009 I analysed an extreme example of the sort we want at
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topicsearchin/rec.bicycles.tech/WHY$20A$20WATERFORD$20BIKE$20IS$20A$20JOKE (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topicsearchin/rec.bicycles.tech/WHY$20A$20WATERFORD$20BIKE$20IS$20A$20JOKE)
I think that may be the point, your bike's expensive name as ostentatious exclusivity.
Andre Jute
Ow I know, Thorn are made by obsessives, my comment was more to note that a value aspect of expensive frames (hand-made by a person you can identify) doesn't necessarily equal better technical value. Snob as I am, I do derive pleasure from small firm bikes (Thorn/Ciocc etc..) and handmade frames (Thorn/Ciocc) from small workshops. It doesn't make for a better bike necessarily.
Steve Goff does good value bikes and he can use custom lugs if you deliver them. See: http://forum.ctc.org.uk/download/file.php?id=7665&sid=f6ff56455096b277471ae400cbde06ed for very reasonable prices.
But the name can make so much difference, especially with vintage bikes. Campagnolo SR looks gorgeous, costs more than Stronglight which has made some gorgeous parts too. Colnago's are sought after, but I've seen nice frames on ebay.it to the same detail, but the makers are not famous. Guilty by association I didn't put Stronglight/Ofmega on my vintage bike ^_^
Second/Third the forum friendliness. On another bike forum where there's very helpful people and some people that are a bit less so. I'm too old to have to prove superiority by being unfriendly!
(or is that ageism against younger people? I wouldn't say I'm mature though...that's insulting the truly mature)
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I'm too old to have to prove superiority by being unfriendly!
(or is that ageism against younger people? I wouldn't say I'm mature though...that's insulting the truly mature)
That's it; I'm framing this to put on my wall.
;D
All the best,
Dan.
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I wouldn't say I'm mature though...that's insulting the truly mature)
I've been planning for a few decades to make time to grow up, but life keeps interfering.
Andre Jute
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Hi All So which is the best to buy?
The low cost Frame/Bike? or the high cost (Topend) Frame/Bike?
I'm looking into Buy a New Mountain Bike :o do I buy the low end or the top end?
(http://media.chopmtb.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/TLD_Stumpy-600x337.jpg)
High Cost Ltd made design
(http://specialized.scene7.com/is/image/Specialized/10235?$Hero$)
Low Cost STD colour Hardtail
Pete ???
.
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Hi All So which is the best to buy?
The low cost Frame/Bike? or the high cost (Topend) Frame/Bike?
I'm looking into Buy a New Mountain Bike :o do I buy the low end or the top end?
(http://media.chopmtb.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/TLD_Stumpy-600x337.jpg)
High Cost Ltd desgin
Pete ???
.
With a paint job like that, the high end frame will obviously go much faster. ;)
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At the moment I am patiently awaiting the arrival of a shiny new black Silly Troll frameset. Now, I know that isn't a super expensive frame, but the consequences of it could well be if my resolve is not super strong. ::)
The thing is, there's a little red guy with a pointy stick sitting on my shoulder, whispering in my ear, "you know that once you've got that frame you'll have to get a shiny new red anodised Rohloff disc hub to go with it!! :o
Jim (... whose bank manager may well be kinda surly sometime soonish)
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^ Hah lol I know that feeling ;D
Another thing with expensive frames is the beauty factor. Sometimes the feeling you get from something Really Nice is worth something in £££.
My vintage bike is framing worthy for me. Which is what happens in winter anyway...no way I am going to expose it to grit/slush!
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Having recently watched a few videos about just some of the many wonderful tracks available to you, with more in construction and even more planned to come in the future. I think I'd be saving for the nicest bike I could afford. Time to try out as many as possible to get more idea of what suits you the best.