Author Topic: Correct dish for wheel with Arai drum  (Read 4166 times)

mumford

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Correct dish for wheel with Arai drum
« on: March 12, 2015, 11:29:55 am »
So our rear wheel woes continue and after a bad crash in Turkey we've got time to try and sort a free things out with the tandem.

The rear wheel is built from a Shimano tandem hub with Arai drum, onto a 48h ceramic rim. When in the frame it sits very close to the non drive side chain stay but with 10-15mm or so clearance on the drive side, I.e. not central. This is a problem as it limits the tyre size to 1.75" and I'd prefer to use 2" before we hit rougher roads.

By eye it looks like the wheel is built with roughly symmetrical dishing on both sides with perhaps a slightly steeper dish on the drum brake side. Is this standard or should the dishing be steeper on the drive side? By changing the dish the rim would be more central but perhaps at the expense of strength.

I've had to tighten spokes and had the wheel looked at by various shops during the last 6 months of our trip but it keeps loosening up so I'm concerned that it's not built correctly.

Any help, advice much appreciated.

Regards

Marcus

Danneaux

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Re: Correct dish for wheel with Arai drum
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2015, 04:40:57 pm »
Hi Marcus!

I'm sorry to hear your wheel woes continue and even sorrier you suffered the bad crash. Crashes are never fun, but they can be worse on a tandem due to the sheer mass, if nothing else. They aren't pretty. I hope things start to look up for you soon!

I also have a tandem with an Arai drum/drag brake, but it is built on a freewheel hub rather than a cassette freehub.

Besides the trouble with the hub bearings, you're now dealing with two additional problems:

1) A wheel that isn't centered in the dropouts, and this really shows up at the chainstay/rim.
2) A wheel that doesn't remain in tension (spokes loosen, requiring tightening).

The wheel's rim should be centered between the hub's axle locknuts (and thus the dropouts).

Faced with the centering problem, I would first check the hub spacing to make sure everything is in correct order. As I recall, the hub has been apart several times to check on the bearing issue, and it is possible it was misassembled at some point unless this spacing issue was present from the beginning. This could explain why the rim seems to be largely centered on the hub yet is offset to one side in the stays.

If the hub spacing checks out, then it does sound like the wheel is mis-dished. As I recall, mine rides in 145mm OLN dropouts, so the wheel is pretty symmetrical with the Arai and the 6-sp freewheel. The spoke bracing angle is not very steep, but it has been strong. After I built it, it has remained true and had no trouble coping with an all-up weight of 600lb/272kg including riders, touring gear, and trailer.

Now to the loose spokes...
In my view, the continued loosening of the wheel points to uneven tension. In my experience, wheels tend to move till they reach equilibrium. If the tension is uneven, the rim will "go" where it needs to balance things out. If tension is correctly high and even, the rim will stay centered and true unless something intervenes (accident or other stressor that causes a bend). Unfortunately, wheels with uneven tension tend to be more prone to "tacoing" under high stress, and this would be really unfortunate if it happened while touring.

I would suggest checking the spoke pattern on the wheel to make sure all spokes are weaved correctly at their last crossing. That will eliminate the remote possibility it was mis-laced.

If the loosening were a one-time thing, it might be put down to a rim bent by the crash. However, to have it continue, I think one must consider uneven tension as a prime culprit. At some point I would de-tension the wheel and start from a baseline of zero tension, adding layers evenly and truing and de-stressing (removing spoke windup) after each tightening. Even without a tension gauge, you should be able to get a better result than you now have.

If the Arai's torque-reaction arm is left free so it doesn't engage the frame, you can flip it back and forth in the dropouts to get the centering correct, or even use a couple shot glasses under the rim and stacked coins under the axle locknut to make your own centering gauge on a café bar table, as I once did for a friend with wheel trouble. It worked great, and the wheel ended up centered within 1mm. A pencil laid across the brakes and held with a rubber band and the pads themselves will work for checking trueness both radially and axially. With care, a person can match the results of dedicated shop tools using these methods.

Hopefully helpful....

Best,

Dan.

mumford

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Re: Correct dish for wheel with Arai drum
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2015, 10:38:14 am »
Hi Dan,
I'll have to make sure I credit you with making our trip a success once we finally make it to NZ! Thanks for the advice.

The possible hub assembly issue was something I'd considered too but the wheel has been off centre for as long as I can remember. I hadn't seen it as too much of a problem to begin with but now have the time and inclination to get it sorted out so that I can get the bigger tyre in.

I've had a productive morning following your advice but began by loosening the non drive side spokes by one turn then tightening the drive side by one turn. This was enough to bring the rim central (by eye against a point on the mudguard) so it doesn't take much to get it right.

There was a lot of uneven tension in the wheel with some pairs of spokes wound right into the nipple and others hardly showing through the rim. So I loosened them all off to the same point then began winding them back in bit by bit and all at the same rate until the wheel was tight again. At that point I put one extra turn on the drive side. This gave a surprisingly round wheel with just a bit of trueing to be done.

I'm wondering if the shop that had trued the wheel for us a few hundred km ago were a bit cautious with their spoke tension? When I got the wheel back from them it didn't seem that tight. I've now set the spokes much tighter though don't have a strain gauge to check. Is there a risk of over tightening beating in mind I'm using a small spoke key?

Just waiting for a new front rim to arrive, then I get to try my hand at wheel building from scratch! Also going to be some time  before my stitched up knee allows me to ride.

All part of the learning process while enjoying a long tour I suppose.

Marcus







mickeg

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Re: Correct dish for wheel with Arai drum
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2015, 12:30:17 pm »
I do not have a truing stand, when I lace up and true a wheel, I do that in the frame.  To check on dish, I turn the wheel around so it is in the frame backwards.  Flipping the wheel back and forth in the frame to true the wheel is how I get my dish correct.

If your wheel is dished correctly and if the rim is too close to one chainstay, sounds to me like the dropouts are not exactly right.  Several years ago that is how I diagnosed that I had a fork that had one fork blade slightly too long, my wheel had the correct dish but the rim was too close to one fork blade because of a defect in the fork.  Ever since then, if I had a wheel that did not appear to be dished correctly, I always checked the frame (by flipping the wheel around) first before I make any other adjustments to the wheel.

I do not have any experience with tandems, does your drum brake prevent you from putting your wheel in the frame backwards to check on dish?  I have not been following your travels, but if you had a crash, could that have caused the frame to be bent out of alignment?  If so, could that cause a correctly dished wheel to sit at an odd angle in the frame?

Lastly, could a bent axle exist in your hub?  If so, then each time you put your wheel into the frame, you would likely find rim brakes to be out of adjustment.  I am not familiar with your hub, but I know that I frequently bent axles in an early 1970s Raleigh and that caused all kinds of problems at the back end.

Good luck with your diagnosis.

lewis noble

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Re: Correct dish for wheel with Arai drum
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2015, 03:50:19 pm »
Glad that both components (wheel and knee) are on the mend, or at least a clearer picture of what to do emerging. Good luck on the rest of your travels!

Lewis
 

onrbikes

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Re: Correct dish for wheel with Arai drum
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2015, 08:40:54 pm »
This may be another technique to rebuild your own wheel. This one is a Rohloff but you ca use the same technique.

https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=Sh&pic_id=1053576&size=large&v=2


Go for 1/4 or 1/2 turn at a time. A full turn is pretty savage.

Sheldon's page on wheel building was my bible
http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

mumford

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Re: Correct dish for wheel with Arai drum
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2015, 07:13:16 am »
Thanks for these tips which are very helpful.
I'm sure the frame hasn't been damaged in the crash as and now I've adjusted and trued the wheel it all looks much better.

However the front wheel did get damaged as I was running on the rim (albeit briefly) at 67kph after the tyre burst so it now has a few chunks taken out of it. When the new rim arrives from SJS I'll use the taping to the old rim technique as that looks like a great trick for making sure it's laced correctly. Sheldon's page has also been handy as always.

Thanks again for all your help folks. Now if only my knee was as easy to fix!

Match's

Danneaux

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Re: Correct dish for wheel with Arai drum
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2015, 04:07:14 pm »
Best of luck and all encouragement your way, Marcus.

Really hope your knee heals quickly and the stiffness goes soonest. I had to stitch mine shut last summer using my sewing kit. Stopped the flap opening, but left it stiff for a couple days.

So glad the accident wasn't worse! Hows' your stoker doing?

All the best,

Dan.

mumford

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Re: Correct dish for wheel with Arai drum
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2015, 07:49:26 pm »
 Thanks Dan. Kirsty went for a full body road rash option rather than one big wound so is a bit sore but healing up well now.
Home stitched knees sound interesting!

We've got some sewing to do but on the tent after someone threw a stone through it. It's been an unlucky week!
Theres a bit more info on our blog and some pictures of the damage: Www.shesnotpedallingontheback.com

Marcus
« Last Edit: March 14, 2015, 07:51:51 pm by mumford »

Danneaux

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Re: Correct dish for wheel with Arai drum
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2015, 08:12:25 pm »
Ohhhhhh, Mannnn, that wasn't pretty, Marcus!

What an unfortunate turn of events; I am so very sorry.  :'(

I hope things will look up for you both soon. Healing, hopeful, supportive wishes your way to both of you!

All the best,

Dan. (...wishing he could do more for you from afar)