Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Rohloff Internal Hub Gears => Topic started by: tronstein on January 30, 2023, 05:09:33 am
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I tend to see a lot of questions online about Rohloff leaks. A lot of them seem to come down to what's normal vs. abnormal, and that's mainly what I'm wondering about my specific situation.
I'll get quite a bit of oil under the cable box, axle plate, and transfer box. Sometimes it gets to the point where it drips on the floor or wicks down onto my brake rotor. I've heard things about oil changes and how 25mL is more than the hub actually needs and sometimes excess will leak out more easily. But I'm wondering if my scenario/photos raise any red flags. Should I replace the paper gaskets or seal ring? Thanks.
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That looks quite a lot, but I would say still within the normal expectation.
Mine have occasionally looked that bad, and one of them could do with the seals changed, though I've been saying that for a number of years.
I use the oil change method described as best practice in Thorn's "Living with a Rohloff" booklet.
That is:
Flush
Add 25ml
Mix well
Remove 18ml
That leaves 14ml in the hub, 7 adhering to the parts (There's never less than 7 in there) and 7 moving about which is likely to be lost before the next change. This method leaves less oil in the hub, but ensures what's in there is cleaner, and a higher ratio of oil to cleaning fluid, compared with any method that includes adding less oil, you've effectively done an extra flush.
Since I've been doing this, at least five years, the hubs and external mechs always look cleaner, even the one I suspect has poor seals. Some report that the hub isn't as quiet with less oil in there to dampen the sound, that makes sense, though I haven't noticed it.
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tronstein - My disc braked hub looks just like yours, with a similar amount of leakage. My hub is 8 years old and has covered (very) approximately 25,000 miles. The leak seemed to start after the last oil change in April 2022 - I change the oil annually and I've always changed it as per the Thorn video method.
https://youtu.be/fVhmgqICNhU
Over the last year the leakage has become less and less as the amount of oil in the hub has dropped. I have got into the habit of always parking the bike leaning over to the drive side which if nothing else, stops the oil dripping onto the brake rotor.
I can assure you that changing the paper gaskets will not stop the leaking.
I was going to get the main seals changed this winter but I decided not to bother. I have read so much on this subject and the general consensus of opinion (from the VERY experienced, long term Rohloff hub users around here) is that the leaking is nothing to worry about. Even Rohloff say that leakage won't damage the hub, that there will ALWAYS be enough in there to lubricate the hub. The slight caveat I would add is that the leakage IS a problem if you've got disc brakes. However, parking the bike up leaning over to the drive side just about eliminates that problem.
For me - Going forward I have decided to adopt the oil changing method described by 'PH' above and I'm then going to stop worrying about it. I'm convinced my hub will be fine.
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I think mine leaks about the same.
When I change oil, I do the cleaning flush, then add 15ml. I suspect half of that leaks out within 500km.
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Think of a small amount of oil leaking out as a dynamic seal. Where oil is leaking out, water isn't leaking in.
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Thanks for your opinions and experiences, everyone. My other concern is that I don't have a ton of miles on it either. I would like to try my hand at replacing the seal, but I'm having a hard time finding parts and tools.
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I would like to try my hand at replacing the seal, but I'm having a hard time finding parts and tools.
Wouldn't we all ??
I looked into this last year and (from memory) it appears the seals, and tools to do the job, are only made available by Rohloff to Rohloff main dealers.
I found a number of articles on-line and a YouTube video on replacing the seals. Apparently the seals and tools used to be freely available. However, athough it APPEARED a simple enough job, apparently enough people made a mess of it for Rohloff to make it a 'Main dealer' only job.
As said, that's all from memory, but that's about the gist of it or it certainly was six months ago.
I would just add that I don't believe that it's beyond the wit of man to come up with some method of getting the seals out/in (assuming some sort of replacement seal could be found) I just decided that the whole thing wasn't worth the effort.
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I had Thorn change the seals on the Sterling about 3 years ago when it was 8 years old and ~ 45,000 km. I made an appointment and they did the job in a morning. No troubles since.
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I had Thorn change the seals on the Sterling about 3 years ago when it was 8 years old and ~ 45,000 km. I made an appointment and they did the job in a morning. No troubles since.
I’ve a mind to do that next time I need a wheel build. After the last oil change it lost quite a bit with small pools of oil from both sides. I can’t decide whether this was just a poor oil change technique or if it is indeed leaking a bit. I’m not concerned that there isn’t enough left in the hub. I might do another change, taking more care, and see if I get a better result.
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Interesting info about the seal and tool availability. That makes sense though, and explains why others were able to do it themselves in the past but now we can't find parts!
I'd also like to highlight an excerpt from Andy Blance's "Living with a Rohloff", which was new to me until I saw it here on the forum!
"Oil leaks from the EX box are generally due to the lack of grease inside
the EX box - grease is used as the only seal for this part of the hub.
Fortunately the remedy is very simple - apply grease!"
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I'd also like to highlight an excerpt from Andy Blance's "Living with a Rohloff", which was new to me until I saw it here on the forum!
"Oil leaks from the EX box are generally due to the lack of grease inside
it's a bit of a rabbit hole! The usually concise Mr Blance has been anything but with this gem.
The External mech is made up of two parts, the Transfer Box and the Cable Box, to me it isn't clear where it's suggested I apply grease. At least two posters, no disrespect to them, "Pack the Ex box" with grease, yet when you delve a little deeper they're doing different things! Both to the cable box and by the time any oil has reached there it's already out of the hub... On a Rohloff youtube vid about converting to an external mech, the only place packed with grease is the space around the cog under the axle plate, maybe this is what's meant? I periodically clean and re-pack this with marine grease. I've only once opened the transfer box, cleaned and greased it, though it didn't look like it needed it and won't bother again unless there's a problem.
I do have a maintenance routine for the cable box, but IMO it has nothing to do with oil exiting the hub.
I'm a bit sceptical, I think if the oil can get past the seal, it's on it's way out and there isn't anything you can do about it. Andre's point, I think in jest, about dynamic seals has some truth, a dry seal is rarely effective.
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I'd also like to highlight an excerpt from Andy Blance's "Living with a Rohloff", which was new to me until I saw it here on the forum!
"Oil leaks from the EX box are generally due to the lack of grease inside
On a Rohloff youtube vid about converting to an external mech, the only place packed with grease is the space around the cog under the axle plate, maybe this is what's meant?
This is the first thing that came to mind when I read that excerpt, though I'm not sure if I interpreted it correctly.
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I'd also like to highlight an excerpt from Andy Blance's "Living with a Rohloff", which was new to me until I saw it here on the forum!
"Oil leaks from the EX box are generally due to the lack of grease inside
On a Rohloff youtube vid about converting to an external mech, the only place packed with grease is the space around the cog under the axle plate, maybe this is what's meant?
This is the first thing that came to mind when I read that excerpt, though I'm not sure if I interpreted it correctly.
What the Rohloff Manual actually says is, “The cable box of the external gear mech should be demounted approx. every 500km, cleaned and the cable pulley lightly greased from the hub-facing side.”
Since 2013 when I bought my Nomad Mk 2 I’ve been regularly doing what I’ve always thought this means as per the following pictures. I’m sure I remember seeing pictures somewhere showing the greasing like this of the hub facing side of the pulley but where I don’t know. I have never stripped the mechanism down any further to grease or re-grease the small gear wheel referred to above when converting an internal to external mech.
If I’ve missed something please let me know!
Where oil changes are concerned, I have always followed the Rohloff instruction leaflet that comes with their fluids only oil change kit.
I don’t do a high mileage, no more than about 2500 miles a year, and not in severe or unusual environments.
I’ve just removed the ex box on my Nomad, cleaned the area and re-greased lightly the hub facing side of the pulley as per the photos below. That’s all I do every few hundred miles to cover this recommended 500km routine maintenance job.
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I'd also like to highlight an excerpt from Andy Blance's "Living with a Rohloff", which was new to me until I saw it here on the forum!
"Oil leaks from the EX box are generally due to the lack of grease inside
On a Rohloff youtube vid about converting to an external mech, the only place packed with grease is the space around the cog under the axle plate, maybe this is what's meant?
This is the first thing that came to mind when I read that excerpt, though I'm not sure if I interpreted it correctly.
What the Rohloff Manual actually says is, “The cable box of the external gear mech should be demounted approx. every 500km, cleaned and the cable pulley lightly greased from the hub-facing side.”
It does say that, I don't think you've missed anything, you're doing exactly as intended.
What it doesn't say is that this would in any way prevent leakage. I find it impossible to imagine how lightly greasing a part the other end of the transfer box from the seal would do so. So, when AB says "grease is used as the only seal for this part of the hub" I don't see how it can be the cable box he's referring to.
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The External mech is made up of two parts, the Transfer Box and the Cable Box, to me it isn't clear where it's suggested I apply grease. At least two posters, no disrespect to them, "Pack the Ex box" with grease, yet when you delve a little deeper they're doing different things!
I'm one of those <waves!> :) and you're absolutely correct, Paul; the Transfer Box and the Cable Box are indeed two different things.
I have only packed my Cable Box with (Phil Wood Waterproof) grease and some seems to have migrated into the lower part of the Transfer Box around the shaft engaged by the cable pulley in the Cable Box. It sure seems unlikely it could migrate higher into the Transfer box and all the way to where it could seal an outgoing leak from the hub. My intent was to seal dust and moisture out of the Cable Box, not seal the oil in the hub or Transfer Box. I do think packing the Cable Box with grease does help prevent the entry of dust at the Cable Box/Transfer Box interface and prevent corrosion, but I don't see how it could do much more than that.
I'd sure be interested to hear Andy B's further thoughts on that.
That said, so far (knock on wood!) I have had no -- zero -- hub leaks so far and only the lightest of oil misting residue visible on each side. Of course now I've said that, it'll prolly leak like a sieve!
Best Dan.
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I'm the other poster PH refers to.
If you have the EXT black cable box and you undo the big stainless knurled screw, and pull the box off the pins guiding the fit, you hold in your hand a black box closed on all sides, and with your right forefinger you can point at a newly exposed brass nut on the bike which is driven by a female socket on the other part in your left hand to change gears. If you have an 8mm socket or open spanner in your touring tools, in case of cable breakage, by rotating the brass nut with the spanner you can change the gears to some compromise that will at least get you to the next habitation.
The shaft behind the brass nut is clearly connected to the gubbins of the gearbox, and it seems to me logical that oil might try to get out that way. It hasn't ever on my bike that I can remember. I pack this space with Phil's, a tube of which was given to me by the erstwhile Forum member Jags a few years ago with assistance from Dan to orchestrate the American end of the long chain from California to the wilds of West Cork. I'll return to this in a moment.
About the piece you're holding in your left hand, still attached to the bike by the cables: on it is the female part of the gear changing mechanism, looking like the female end of a socket spanner. Behind that, inside the box, out of sight, is the cable drum and the mechanism to turn the pull-pull action of the cables through a right angle to drive the socket and hence the gear change. I took one look at the schematics, considered for the space of a cup of coffee that I'm a notorious fumblefingers, and decided not to open mine except a sliver to peek inside for signs of corrosion. My bike lives an easy life almost 100% on tarmac, is never ridden through water over hub height (if I need to jump off the bike into the ditch/stream in the harvest season to clear a narrow lane for a big agricultural machine, I hold the bike above my head) and I wasn't surprised to see no evidence of water ingress. I'm not planning on opening that box -- for clarity, the half where the gear change cables enter it -- until I replace the cables, which have lasted an enormously long time when one considers that they live under abnormal tension because I have the handlebars so high. I should perhaps add that most of you are nearer to SJS by a factor of ten or so than I am to Rohloff itself in Germany, so that is another factor I consider in not taking apart a component I may not get together again. (Yes, I'm aware that SJS sells rewound cables for touring spares and will probably make up a complete black box for me with cables of the right length attached, which for me would be a justified expense, probably a bargain for avoided frustration and lost rides with consequent health effects.)
Dan has also made the point on a previous occasion that one should take the part attached to the cables apart and grease the threads of the screws to avoid the whole thing being locked by corrosion between dissimilar metals.
As I say, I pack the bikeside hollow with the brass nut in it with very high quality grease, enough to squeeze out enough on reassembly to cover the mating area of the two black halves of the EXT box, by the test of grease squeezing out around the circumference of the box. Oil not only hasn't leaked from there, it is very unlikely that it ever will. There's a breathing hole in the centre of the axle, and if that is a source of oil that leaks out, presumably it would leak to both side, but the grease stops any leak to the non-drive side. Of course this is pure speculation, but that space, with the two pieces of brass working against each other every time you change gear, is so easy to service, it takes more time to lay out the tools (one large flat screwdriver for the knurled nut, optional, one tube of grease...) than to clean out the old grease thoroughly and squirt in new grease.
There's another point. Whatever the recommended service to the EXT box is, one half or both, a lot of Rohloff owners don't even know they're supposed to service it, and we've never heard any huge surge of complaints about failures. It seems to me that Rohloff, which generally suffers from a case of cover-my-arse on the extreme end of the scale even for German engineers, have outdone themselves by the instruction to service the EXT (whichever parts of it they intend) every 500 miles or kilometres or whatever. I did at first, until I started to think about it, and then tested alternatives, and now I do it every 3000m/5000km or one year when the gearbox oil is changed. And still I've never seen the slightest evidence that changing the grease was at all necessary, zero ingress of water, zero egress of oil. Those of you who do much higher mileages than me, or whose bike is used in extreme conditions may have different experience and hence service schedules, but for most utility bikes and bikes used for short tours in civilisation, that service instruction in its over-the-topness exceeds even the possible damage by the confusion of parts of the EXT box in the service instructions.
Of course, if you use your Rohloff as a mud bike and spray it down with a pressure hose once a week, you should follow the service instructions closely. Also, if you're a newbie, follow the Rohloff book closely until you have the experience and the confidence to take responsibility for deviating. Notice how carefully Andy Blance reasoned out his deviations from the Rohloff manual.
A Rohloff HGB lasts a very long time -- nobody knows how long! -- and experience has taught that even the worst never-minds rarely find a way to damage it, so you are never in any hurry to make decisions about your bike's gearbox.
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Thanks Dan and Andre for your explanations. I'm in full agreement with Andre that new owners should follow the manual and then later decide for themselves if and how to vary it. Quite a bit of my maintenance routine is on a no disadvantage basis, as in I think it might do some good and it can't do any harm. I remain skeptical that anything you do to the cable box can keep the oil in the hub, but if you think it helps, it can't do any harm.
I can see from the photos at the start of the thread, that the oil exiting the hub is running down the outside of the transfer box, this is my own experience, I'm therefore of the opinion that any leak prevention needs to be before that point.
For anyone interested, there's a youtube vid of a transfer box being stripped:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUwv-NtspVE
another factor I consider in not taking apart a component I may not get together again. (Yes, I'm aware that SJS sells rewound cables for touring spares and will probably make up a complete black box for me with cables of the right length attached, which for me would be a justified expense, probably a bargain for avoided frustration and lost rides with consequent health effects.)
Are you on the original cables Andre?
The part SJS sell is for the internal mech. The cables for the external (Unless split for couplings) are two continues runs, inserted into the shifter and terminating at the pulley, there is no option to swap-out a pulley or cable box. I wouldn't want to do it roadside, but it isn't a complicated workshop job, certainly a lot less fiddly than with an internal mech.
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another factor I consider in not taking apart a component I may not get together again. (Yes, I'm aware that SJS sells rewound cables for touring spares and will probably make up a complete black box for me with cables of the right length attached, which for me would be a justified expense, probably a bargain for avoided frustration and lost rides with consequent health effects.)
Are you on the original cables Andre?
The part SJS sell is for the internal mech. The cables for the external (Unless split for couplings) are two continues runs, inserted into the shifter and terminating at the pulley, there is no option to swap-out a pulley or cable box. I wouldn't want to do it roadside, but it isn't a complicated workshop job, certainly a lot less fiddly than with an internal mech.
I started out on my Rohloff adventure with the EXT box. Mine has about 11,000km on it, which is probably not a huge distance but it has had extraordinary tension on the cables even at rest because when I fitted the n'lock stem conversion, I took the opportunity to raise the handlebars as far as the cables installed would let me, and that was about 8k ago...
I meant about SJS that they'll probably make me up a black box (the outer part of the EXT box) with cables to a supplied measure already attached, not that that is what they actually offer.
Taking the gear cables off my bike isn't a complicated job in itself: they're held on by custom machined retainers brazed to the downtube and, from memory, there are only three of them each with one screw to hold on the cover. But there's quite a bit of electrical motor power supply and control wiring that I don't want to disturb because it took me days to fit it modestly tidily.
Thanks for the video link. Something interesting to watch on my treadmill tonight. Maybe the job is so simple that I can do it myself...
Part of the Hippocratic Oath is, or if it isn't, it should be "first, do no harm"!
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I meant about SJS that they'll probably make me up a black box (the outer part of the EXT box) with cables to a supplied measure already attached, not that that is what they actually offer.
Not wishing to condemn you to more treadmill time, here's Rohloff's cable fitting guide, which shows why that isn't an option (Unless the cable has splitters):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_ha9__3VLg&t=20s
Save you watching it unless you want to - The explanation is the cables thread through the shifter before they attach to the pulley in the cable box, that's two cables fitted in the shifter and terminating at the pulley. There isn't a way, on a standard set-up, to fit cables to the shifter if they're already fitted to the cable box.
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Thanks for that clarification and the additional video, Paul.
That's the thing about the Rohloff: there is so much information published, you can never be certain you're on top of it all. I actually knew about threading the cables through the rotary control but it just slipped my mind, still half on the original thread subject of leaks, ever fascinating. I've moved the additional video to the top of my treadmill list anyway.
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Last year I had oil leakage after my spring oil change when I had put Rohloff's recommended 25ml of oil into the hub so I then drained about 5ml of oil which stopped the leakage. I suspect that if the total oil in the hub (new oil and that which refused to drain out) exceeds 25ml then the oil level when the bike is standing is up to the level of the axle. At the autumn oil change I added only 15ml of new oil.
If you remove the five Torx screws which secure the axle plate (which I needed to do for modification to fit the Spa Elan frame) then the transfer box will also detach from the hub to reveal an oil/grease soup where the cog at the end of the transfer box engages with the cog on the axle. There's also a paper seal in there. I would presume that Rohloff are recommending that this area should be well packed with grease whenever there's any maintenance done but it's not a part of the hub that most users will ever need to visit. (I would note that ensuring that the cogs are re-engaged to get the right shifting behaviour can be fiddly to it's best to not open up this area unless necessary).
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If you remove the five Torx screws which secure the axle plate...then the transfer box will also detach from the hub to reveal an oil/grease soup where the cog at the end of the transfer box engages with the cog on the axle. There's also a paper seal in there. I would presume that Rohloff are recommending that this area should be well packed with grease whenever there's any maintenance done but it's not a part of the hub that most users will ever need to visit.
Boy! This explains a lot! :) Thanks, JohnR.
Best, Dan.
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I'm feeling a bit left out of this conversation, not having a EXT box on my Rohloff.
Should I be expecting any comparable problems with my ' ordinary ' set up?
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I would presume that Rohloff are recommending that this area should be well packed with grease whenever there's any maintenance done
No need to presume it, it's in the vid I linked earlier.
EDIT - Opps, I mentioned the vid but didn't link :-[
Here it is
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGNFZjavXcI
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Should I be expecting any comparable problems with my ' ordinary ' set up?
The likelihood is identical, it's the same seal.
It does require some perspective. Although a hot topic, it's rarely an issue, all the hubs can leak a bit, it's the nature of the seals. If they leak a bit more than that, there's often ways to mitigate it, if it leaks a lot more than that, it's now a workshop job. That happens of course, but not so often anyone would be expecting it.
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If you remove the five Torx screws which secure the axle plate (which I needed to do for modification to fit the Spa Elan frame) then the transfer box will also detach from the hub to reveal an oil/grease soup where the cog at the end of the transfer box engages with the cog on the axle. There's also a paper seal in there. I would presume that Rohloff are recommending that this area should be well packed with grease whenever there's any maintenance done but it's not a part of the hub that most users will ever need to visit. (I would note that ensuring that the cogs are re-engaged to get the right shifting behaviour can be fiddly to it's best to not open up this area unless necessary).
I bought my Rohloff hub separately from the Nomad Mk II frame. And I had to change the position of that axle plate. Thus, I opened that area up. In my case, it is my recollection that it was not filled with anything, the hub was brand new and no oil had yet been put in it.
I wonder if I should just open that up again, clean it out and fill it up any void space with Phil grease?
When I remove my rear skewer, it is coated with oil, but when I have mentioned that before, some say that their skewer comes out clean. Thus, I suspect that something in mine is oriented differently than for others. And I would not be surprised if mine leaks more than some others because it can leak onto the skewer.
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Should I be expecting any comparable problems with my ' ordinary ' set up?
The likelihood is identical, it's the same seal.
It does require some perspective. Although a hot topic, it's rarely an issue, all the hubs can leak a bit, it's the nature of the seals. If they leak a bit more than that, there's often ways to mitigate it, if it leaks a lot more than that, it's now a workshop job. That happens of course, but not so often anyone would be expecting it.
Ah yes. But I don't have the axel plate to pack with grease every once in awhile.
Or 5 Torx screws.....
Is there an old thread re the pros and cons of one or t'other set ups?
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Should I be expecting any comparable problems with my ' ordinary ' set up?
The likelihood is identical, it's the same seal.
It does require some perspective. Although a hot topic, it's rarely an issue, all the hubs can leak a bit, it's the nature of the seals. If they leak a bit more than that, there's often ways to mitigate it, if it leaks a lot more than that, it's now a workshop job. That happens of course, but not so often anyone would be expecting it.
Ah yes. But I don't have the axel plate to pack with grease every once in awhile.
Or 5 Torx screws.....
Is there an old thread re the pros and cons of one or t'other set ups?
I'm pretty sure you do have 5 torx screws holding your axle plate on, it's the same axle plate on either. Behind that on an internal is the axle ring, this is in exactly the same place as the cog that engages with the transfer box on an external.
Have a look at this vid (Which I'd meant to post earlier) for an idea of the difference. Oil leaking through the seal is coming out the same way on either.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGNFZjavXcI
Where you looking for an appraisal of the general differences? The one on my Mercury is a conversion, IMO the differences are minor.
The internal shift is IMO a little more crisp, but I soon got used to the external.
Detaching the cable box is less fiddley than the splitter connectors
The cable is easier to replace on an external and is a standard cable.
The continuous cable run from shifter to hub is better sealed (Not that I ever had a problem with the internal)
You can't run disc brakes with an internal (At least not a standard set up, the rotor and cable would occupy the same space)
With an external mech you could straight swap one wheel for another (OK, not one that applies to many)
I think that's it, I wouldn't say one was better than the other, unless your choice is limited by the brake.
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Thanks PH
A great video.
FYI after playing it, YouTube took me to a video by Simon Chetwynd who had stripped down his hub after an 11,000 mile failure. Perhaps of interest to you?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4OmG8T7Uec
Best
Matt
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I bought my Rohloff hub separately from the Nomad Mk II frame. And I had to change the position of that axle plate. Thus, I opened that area up. In my case, it is my recollection that it was not filled with anything, the hub was brand new and no oil had yet been put in it.
Yes, that was exactly my experience too.
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I bought my Rohloff hub separately from the Nomad Mk II frame. And I had to change the position of that axle plate. Thus, I opened that area up. In my case, it is my recollection that it was not filled with anything, the hub was brand new and no oil had yet been put in it.
Yes, that was exactly my experience too.
This coming spring, I plan to open that up, clean it out, fill void space with grease. Would do that during my annual oil change. As you can see from the attached photo, I have had some oil loss that was a dirt magnet on mine.
I took the photo on my Iceland trip. I changed the oil immediately before my flight to Iceland, I suspect that my hub was shipped non-drive side down on one or both flights, as it was already leaking when I assembled my bike at the start in Iceland.
Since then, if I change oil before a flight, I empty the hub but add the new oil after the flight instead of before the flight.
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This coming spring, I plan to open that up, clean it out, fill void space with grease.
I think I may do the same next time I have a wheel out. It's one of those things which is simple enough that it can't do any harm even if you're sceptical about it usefulness.
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Not sure if anyone will notice this update, but after cleaning everything up, I did what the service video recommends at about 2:30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGNFZjavXcI The bike got a couple short rides, but mostly sat for a couple of months. I got it out today and it has the same leakage as in my original post, albeit not as severe. All in all, I'm not too worried about it in general, but I do struggle to understand how so many minor leaks, "misting", and "sweating" of oil is considered normal, but it surely has to affect the pads and rotor on a disc brake hub.
My rear brake is pretty good for a short period after I replace or clean/resurface my pads and rotor and then it becomes quite inadequate as it gets contaminated. How do others cope with this?
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My rear brake is pretty good for a short period after I replace or clean/resurface my pads and rotor and then it becomes quite inadequate as it gets contaminated. How do others cope with this?
That's a horrible, and expensive, problem to have, but I don't think it's as normal as the question implies. I've had disc Rohloffs for about six years and haven't contaminated a rotor or pads, interested to hear others experience. I change oil as recommended in Thorn's "Living with a Rohloff" PDF booklet and as I detailed in a earlier post:
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=14788.msg111085#msg111085
I don't know if that's going to solve your issue, I can't remember if I'd already converted to disc when I started doing it like that, it is the method which leaves the least in the hub to leak out, which is likely to be a good thing.
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I have had a lot of leakage out of my EX box area, but only minimal oil coating on the part of my hub that would have the Rotor mount if I had a disc version. I only have one Rohloff, rim brake version. Thus, my question is only curiosity.
Is the leakage that contaminates rotors more prevalent on hubs with internal gear cables or EX boxes? Or are both about the same?
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My rear brake is pretty good for a short period after I replace or clean/resurface my pads and rotor and then it becomes quite inadequate as it gets contaminated. How do others cope with this?
This is EXACTLY the same problem that I have with my hub and disc brake.
It wasn't immediately obvious why my rear brake was so poor, I hadn't noticed any oil on the rotor or the floor etc, but then I did notice that the underneath of the cable box was wet with oil and the penny dropped. I haven't found any way of actually stopping the leak, but I always park the bike leaning over to the drive side.
I decided to do this year's oil change as/the method refered to by PH above, thinking less oil in means less oil to leak out. I did this a couple of days ago and it's just too early to say if it has made much of a difference. I will pop back in a month with an update.
EDIT - I've just had a quick check over the bike. 60Km after completing the oil change the cable box is wet inside and underneath. let's see how it goes over the next month.
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My rear brake is pretty good for a short period after I replace or clean/resurface my pads and rotor and then it becomes quite inadequate as it gets contaminated. How do others cope with this?
That's a horrible, and expensive, problem to have, but I don't think it's as normal as the question implies. I've had disc Rohloffs for about six years and haven't contaminated a rotor or pads, interested to hear others experience. I change oil as recommended in Thorn's "Living with a Rohloff" PDF booklet and as I detailed in a earlier post:
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=14788.msg111085#msg111085
I don't know if that's going to solve your issue, I can't remember if I'd already converted to disc when I started doing it like that, it is the method which leaves the least in the hub to leak out, which is likely to be a good thing.
I should do an oil change soon and I'll keep this in mind.
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Is the leakage that contaminates rotors more prevalent on hubs with internal gear cables or EX boxes? Or are both about the same?
I had my oldest one converted to disc, it leaked before, leaked after, I doubt there's any difference, the bearings and seals it's coming through are the same, there's nothing on the outer side of that which is going to stop it, though where it ends up will be different.
My newest hub is a TS (Nutted) version, that seems to leak less, though it's only three years old so maybe too early to draw any conclusions.
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My newest hub is a TS (Nutted) version, that seems to leak less, though it's only three years old so maybe too early to draw any conclusions.
I have had a lot of oil on my skewer when I remove the skewer. But others have not reported any oil on the skewer. I would not be surprised if mine was missing a seal or had a bad seal.
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I have had a lot of oil on my skewer when I remove the skewer. But others have not reported any oil on the skewer. I would not be surprised if mine was missing a seal or had a bad seal.
That's interesting. As I checked over my Raven before flying, I though the skewer was oily but put it down to the grease I had used on it nearly a year ago. Maybe it was oil?
Recent oil change produced zero dirty oil after 11 months use.
Not that it concerned me.
Popped in 15+ ml
. That'll do me until I return home.
Best
Matt
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Popped in 15+ ml
. That'll do me until I return home.
Best
Matt
I had a lot of leakage on my Iceland trip. I changed the oil at home before I did that trip. I would not be surprised if a lot of oil had leaked into my EX box on the flight. I fly with my bike in an S&S case, so the bike might fly with the side of the hub oriented down. I assume if you fly with a bike in a bike box that it flies with the box oriented upwards. Thus, I might get more leakage that way.
My next trip that involved flying, I rinsed the hub (cleaning oil) and drained it. Then flew to my destination, and added the oil at my destination. Thus, it flew with a drained hub. I seemed to have a bit less leakage on that trip.
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Today, changed my oil. And while I was working on the bike, removed the five Torx screws that hold the torque plate (OEM Axle Plate) and EX Box mechanism from the hub. The paper gaskets look good. I could not see any reason for my oil leakage from the non-driveside. I do not have replacement gaskets and in USA they are either a fortune or out of stock, so did not change the gaskets.
Put the EX Box mechanism back on the hub, then before I installed the OEM Axle Plate, put a bunch of Phil grease surrounding the shifter gear to see if that will reduce my oil loss. And put the five screws back in.
Will find out later if my oil loss continues to be significant or not.
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Hi Mick
I'll be in USA from November.
Like me to bring a gasket over & post it to you?
Matt
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I made this comment a few days ago, underlining added for emphasis:
Today, changed my oil ... while I was working on the bike, removed the five Torx screws that hold the torque plate (OEM Axle Plate) and EX Box mechanism from the hub. ... Put the EX Box mechanism back on the hub, then before I installed the OEM Axle Plate, put a bunch of Phil grease surrounding the shifter gear to see if that will reduce my oil loss. And put the five screws back in.
Will find out later if my oil loss continues to be significant or not.
I did a 40.4 mile ride yesterday, and this morning there is no evidence of oil leakage from the EX box. Thus, that grease may have blocked the pathway for oil to leak out of the hub. I am sure that it is temporary, thin oil should readily dissolve grease, but it would be nice if it lasts for a while.
I have a sidestand on the Nomad Mk II, the bike leans slightly to the left on the stand, which would make it easier for oil to leak out of the left side of the hub.
Hi Mick
I'll be in USA from November.
Like me to bring a gasket over & post it to you?
Matt
Thank you for the offer, but no thanks. I have no plans to open that up again.
I am hoping that a bunch of grease in there will slow the rate of oil leakage, and if it does not, it should be no worse than the past nine years.
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Mick,
I'm curious to see how mine fares after an oil change. A while back I did the same thing as you did with grease, but it doesn't seem to have helped much. But that being said, I didn't put many miles on it or change the oil and then I shredded the tire. Still deciding if I'll just get a new tire or possibly change the wheel size. But when I do one of those, I'll change my oil and report back after riding as well.
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UPDATE:
Yesterday I rode 97 miles on my Nomad Mk II. And previous to that I rode 40 miles after the oil change, for a total of 137 miles or 220 km.
I mentioned a few posts above on May 10 that when I changed the oil that I put grease in behind the axle plate surrounding the shifter gear in an attempt to create a seal. I expected it to be temporary, but tried it anyway.
This morning, no oil drips on the EX box or the floor below it. But I took the skewer out and the skewer is coated with oil. I therefore assume that the oil dissolved some of the grease and created a pathway to escape the hub.
Thus, I expect the leakage to be more evident in the near future. I do not plan to try to seal it with grease in the future, likely not worth the time to me.
I used to say that as long as my 1960s and 1970s Triumph motorcycles were leaking oil, I knew that everything was working right. That applies to my Rohloff too.
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I used to say that as long as my 1960s and 1970s Triumph motorcycles were leaking oil, I knew that everything was working right. That applies to my Rohloff too.
So there we are -- it doesn't really matter if it's a bug or a feature, eh? Thanks, George, one less thing to worry about. ;)
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UPDATE:
Yesterday I rode 97 miles on my Nomad Mk II. And previous to that I rode 40 miles after the oil change, for a total of 137 miles or 220 km.
I mentioned a few posts above on May 10 that when I changed the oil that I put grease in behind the axle plate surrounding the shifter gear in an attempt to create a seal. I expected it to be temporary, but tried it anyway.
This morning, no oil drips on the EX box or the floor below it. But I took the skewer out and the skewer is coated with oil. I therefore assume that the oil dissolved some of the grease and created a pathway to escape the hub.
Thus, I expect the leakage to be more evident in the near future. I do not plan to try to seal it with grease in the future, likely not worth the time to me.
I used to say that as long as my 1960s and 1970s Triumph motorcycles were leaking oil, I knew that everything was working right. That applies to my Rohloff too.
Thanks for the update. I also have renewed anxiety about my hub because I had a customer come into the shop with the same bike as mine. Their hub was bone dry and the shifting also felt better than mine. >:(
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Thanks for the update. I also have renewed anxiety about my hub because I had a customer come into the shop with the same bike as mine. Their hub was bone dry and the shifting also felt better than mine. >:(
Some on this forum have commented that their rear skewers do not show any oil like mine does. So, there clearly are differences. But, when Thorn and Rohloff say that leakage is common and you do not need to worry about it, I am not going to worry about it.
I made the comment above about my vintage Triumph motorcycles, but those had two oil pumps, one pumped oil out of the crankcase and put it into the oil tank, the other pumped oil from the oil tank to maintain oil pressure to the bearings within the engine. In that case, if it stopped leaking, that meant no oil pressure, and that was a problem.
The Rohloff just has some oil in the bottom of a hub, so that rotating hubs will continue to wash the internal parts with oil, if you are low on oil it should not be a great problem. And if it leaks at a slower rate later, that should not be a problem either.
Feel on shifting, I am sure there are changes in the hub over time and the type of shifting mechanism used. I have only ridden my Rohloff, have never ridden another one. So, I can't compare. I am in USA and Rohloff hubs are very rare in USA. A neighbor is a bike mechanic and he has told me that my Rohloff is the only one he has ever seen even though he is in a bike shop all day, five days a week.
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Feel on shifting, I am sure there are changes in the hub over time and the type of shifting mechanism used. I have only ridden my Rohloff, have never ridden another one. So, I can't compare. I am in USA and Rohloff hubs are very rare in USA. A neighbor is a bike mechanic and he has told me that my Rohloff is the only one he has ever seen even though he is in a bike shop all day, five days a week.
Yeah, I'm in the US too, and I hadn't given this much thought until I had a customer bring his in. Then I suddenly realized that I think I've only seen/felt one other Rohloff besides my own in my time as a bike mechanic. I wish I could gain more experience with them, but they're just not common. We need to get more people on Rohloffs!
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Mine is leaking quite a lot since the last oil change. Seems to be from both sides. Next time I need a new rim I will ask SJS to look at the seals. It might not be long as another issue is braking with the back wheel. The CSS coating has worn away so I have shifted to standard blocks but I get a weird slip-grip-slip sensation when slowing right down. I’ve cleaned the rims, checked the spokes and v brakes but am thinking it has something to do with the polished rim surface. Any thoughts on a soft pad compound would be well received as it seems a shame to bin a still true rim.
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The CSS coating has worn away so I have shifted to standard blocks but I get a weird slip-grip-slip sensation when slowing right down. I’ve cleaned the rims, checked the spokes and v brakes but am thinking it has something to do with the polished rim surface. Any thoughts on a soft pad compound would be well received as it seems a shame to bin a still true rim.
May I refer you the the answer I gave earlier:
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=14840.msg111810#msg111810
I haven't experienced this slip-grip behaviour, though it rings a bell about something, but I can't recall what... maybe it'll come back to me, or maybe it'll now bug me enough I'll have to research!
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Thanks PH, I’d also recalled that someone had made a suggestion regarding blocks post CSS but forgotten where! Will investigate options. I did wonder if the oil from the hub was contributing to the slip-grip-slip phenomenon but a really good scrub made little difference.
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I’d also recalled that someone had made a suggestion regarding blocks post CSS but forgotten where!
Hi Geo!
The topics as discussed at these links may not be exactly what you recall, but maybe close?...
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=14498.0
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=13128.0
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=6373.0
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=12774.msg95207#msg95207
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=14117.0
Hopefully helpful.
Best, Dan.
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Mine is leaking quite a lot since the last oil change. Seems to be from both sides. ...
I do not recall reading of leakage from the drive side before. I think that is uncommon and maybe a seal there would be in order?
Yesterday morning, I had one drop of oil on the floor under my EX box, so the leakage on mine has come back, although much slower after my smearing Phil grease under the axle torque plate.
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Thanks all, will take a look at those links. I think what has happened is that the css has worn differentially . It looks superficially smooth and shiny all around but there may well be still some areas with more grip than others. Structurally the rim is absolutely fine with no concavity or flaring.
Quick update in case it’s useful for others. I swapped koolstop orange pads for some slightly used no name black ones in an integrated holder, rather than the cartridge type. I just happened to find them in my parts box. I also added an extra washer between block and brake arm and slackened the cable allowing the arms to flare outward slightly. All worked perfectly on todays ride! So, either the compound worked better with the worn CSS surface or the v brake wasn’t adjusted correctly and the wheel was slowing normally under light braking then escaping when coming to a halt. I think probably the latter. Will report back in a few weeks.
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My rear brake is pretty good for a short period after I replace or clean/resurface my pads and rotor and then it becomes quite inadequate as it gets contaminated. How do others cope with this?
This is EXACTLY the same problem that I have with my hub and disc brake.
It wasn't immediately obvious why my rear brake was so poor, I hadn't noticed any oil on the rotor or the floor etc, but then I did notice that the underneath of the cable box was wet with oil and the penny dropped. I haven't found any way of actually stopping the leak, but I always park the bike leaning over to the drive side.
I decided to do this year's oil change as/the method refered to by PH above, thinking less oil in means less oil to leak out. I did this a couple of days ago and it's just too early to say if it has made much of a difference. I will pop back in a month with an update.
EDIT - I've just had a quick check over the bike. 60Km after completing the oil change the cable box is wet inside and underneath. let's see how it goes over the next month.
Just reporting back.
It is just over a month since I completed an oil change as/the method recommended by Andy Blanc in 'Living with a Rohloff' After completing the process there should be 14ml of oil left in the hub.
Well this 14ml is leaking nicely past the oil seals (simmerings) making it's way down the EX transfer box and onto the disc rotor. There doesn't appear to be any difference in the amount of leakage between this oil change method and the method that I was using previously - the Thorn/YouTube method. This is a situation that CANNOT be ignored if you run disc brakes.
I can actually live with the thought that these seals may need replacing now and again, seals unseal and need replacing in many applications, but what irks me is that Rohloff will no longer sell the seals, or the tools to replace the seals, to anyone other than Rohloff main dealers. (I am aware of the guy on ebay selling his version of the Rohloff seal changing tools and seals)
Call it what you will, leaking, misting, sweating etc, oil finding it's way out of Rohloff hubs is well documented, even Rohloff themselves refer to it. It would seem to me (rightly or wrongly) that Rohloff didn't think about this when they added the disc brake option. The leakage from my hub would be nothing to worry about if I ran rim brakes, but the fact that I run discs makes the leakage plain dangerous.
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In my case, I think the bad seal is deep inside the Rohloff, much deeper than I would ever want to do any disassembly on my own. I do my own bike work. Example, I built up my own wheels (including my Rohloff wheel), etc. I later added the flange reinforcing rings to my wheel as a precaution. Etc.
In some of the exploded diagrams, there is a seal that is number 45 on the diagram, between the diagram number 43 (Hub Axle CC) and diagram number 46 (Shifting Shaft). If I could buy that part, I would not bother to try to fix it as that would be a lot of disassembly to get to, there are some projects that I think the risk reward ratio is not in my favor if I decide to attempt doing my own repair.
That said, I have rim brakes, leakage to me is only a slight nuisance, as it does not contaminate my brake pads.