Author Topic: Most important athlete of all-time?  (Read 29739 times)

The Raucous AUK

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Re: Most important athlete of all-time?
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2008, 09:22:02 pm »
Ali & Pele for me - I just can't decide.

freddered

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Re: Most important athlete of all-time?
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2008, 09:34:07 pm »
Jesse Owens or Ali


Armstrong was just very very good.  Ultimately he isn't important.

Jesse Owens rubbed Hitler's nose in it, right in front of him.

How important can you get?
 

Fred A-M

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Re: Most important athlete of all-time?
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2009, 11:28:35 pm »
I seem to have pre-empted myself a little ref John Charles, who's just been voted the greatest player (not just foreign) ever to play in the italian league.  Never booked in his career, he could have very much rewritten the 1958 world cup had he not been injured with for Wales's QF tie with Brazil, having already scored in the competition in their defeat of Hungary.   

http://www.sportingo.com/football/a11007_welshman-who-was-better-than-maradona-ronaldo-zidane
 

captain Flack

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Re: Most important athlete of all-time?
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2009, 12:32:45 pm »
Gary Lineker - I'm not really a fan of football but how many other World Cup goal-scoring players have NEVER been yellow- or red-carded at any time in their careers?



Pele

Fred A-M

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Re: Most important athlete of all-time?
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2010, 10:05:15 pm »
Regarding Armstrong, I don't really see what Landis would have to gain by falsely implicating him, because he'd never win a popularity war.   It just seems the insinuations just won't go away and the man's arrogance clearly isn't as diminished as his seeming integrity.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/other_sports/cycling/8695890.stm

 

stutho

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Re: Most important athlete of all-time?
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2010, 09:54:08 am »
> I don't really see what Landis would have to gain by falsely implicating him

He gains nothing, but IF this is a spiteful act,  then I have to say that spite doesn't require the backing of logic!

(Anyone else ever had their new car keyed?)

 

Fred A-M

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Re: Most important athlete of all-time?
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2010, 11:25:23 am »
I don't disagree with you Stuart - though it's yet another substantial dollop of mud thrown in Armstrong's direction - whilst I appreciate insinuations can be made out of envy, Armstrong's arrogance (not to mention the very substantial body of evidence as highlighted in an earlier link) does little to dissuade me that he is ultimately, like the probable majority of humans competing on the tour, guilty.  I think Landis's admissions are very revealing in that he at least shown his human side - I never see that sense of human touch or humility in Armstrong, just arrogance which I think says/masks a lot.
 

Fred A-M

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Re: Most important athlete of all-time?
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2010, 02:06:38 pm »
Apologies for a 2nd consecutive post, but as you can probably tell, the general deification of Armstrong is something about which I feel quite strongly. 

The point I want to make is probably best illustrated by mention of another rider, David Moncoutie, one of the very few professional riders to have finished top 10 in one the major tours and who is unanimously regarded by his fellow professionals as always having been clean.  Moncoutie illustrates that it is possible to remain beyond suspicion and manage a positive reputation within the sport. That Moncoutie is such a rarity speaks volumes about the sport’s credibility and is why Armstrong’s latest statement “We like our credibility” in the wake of Landis’s admissions/accusation simply serves to intensify my rabid dislike of him.

Greg Lemond is on record as saying that the timescale of Armstrong’s Tour victory following his cancer was not humanly possible in terms of recovery and competitive performance.  It is possible that Lemond also doped, could have been prone to sour grapes, but his assertion as a 3-time tour winner is no less credible.   I also imagine Lemond also likes his own credibility but he would never have the arrogance to utter such words on the basis that he was never caught.   However, the critical difference between Lemond and Armstrong is that the former somehow managed keep a healthy distance between himself and any allegations whilst Armstrong has somehow, despite all protestations, has singularly failed to do this.

For all the conspiracy theorists, it seems to me that a man who has the will, guts and intelligence to win 7 tours would also find it within himself to manage a clean reputation, as proved possible by Moncoutie - he chose instead to align himself despite persistent allegations and suspicions with a doctor who was already proven to dope cyclists .  I wonder if he also refers Dr Ferrerri’s to credibility when he uses “We”? 

Given cycling’s reputation, ultimately Armstrong’s own reputation will be determined in whether he in anyway contributed to enhancing the credibility of the sport (as opposed to appeal) at a time when the sport has been in real need of it.  Moncoutie has proved that it is possible to make that contribution, but all Armstrong has proved to me is that if you’re not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.   To me, Armstrong is nothing short of a disgrace, not because he is a 7 time tour winner, but because, in Lemond’s words, he is so obviously a fraud in having achieved this - his legacy will be generations of cyclists to come unquestioningly viewing Armstrong's blatant lack of integrity and disregard for the wider sport as aspirational.  By contrast, the true tragedy will be that the vast majority of these cyclists will be likely to say "David....Who!?"   Thank you Lance, cycling and the sporting world in general is not worthy of you!        
« Last Edit: May 22, 2010, 10:27:57 am by Fred A-M »
 

brummie

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Re: Most important athlete of all-time?
« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2010, 09:45:59 pm »
Lemond a possible doper ? - I've read he refused (any) injections off team doctors / soigneurs. Armstrong will always have his doubters, but :
(a) He's never (publically ) failed a dope test ( & he's probably been tested more than anyone )
 (b) He chose to come back into the sport (where he has nothing to prove ) & subject himself to more drug testing !
 

Fred A-M

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Re: Most important athlete of all-time?
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2010, 10:45:30 pm »
Brummie, I appreciate that you're not necessarily making a statement  in favour of either.

However, in totally overlooking my main point in reference to maintaining reputations a la Moncoutie, therein lies your answer - Armstrong has never "publicly" (ie. officially) failed a test.

Lemond never failed any that I'm aware of and never had to defend himself against a litany of allegations, or declined to have samples retrospectively tested for drugs they did not have the technology to test for at the time (EPO).  Lemond simply didn't behave in a way or make decisions that could allow his integrity to be doubted - quite the contrary in Armstrong's case.

If you read any objective summary of their careers, large chunks of Armstrong's are generally dedicated to allegation and counter-allegations - there's no such central preoccupation with Lemond's.   

Given Lemond's pronouncements on Armstrong, who would you choose to believe given that we pretty much have to believe one or the other?  Who, in your opinion, has the most credibility? 
« Last Edit: May 23, 2010, 03:16:36 pm by Fred A-M »
 

brummie

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Re: Most important athlete of all-time?
« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2010, 09:31:07 pm »
LeMond was a bit of a hero of mine to be honest when I first took up racing as a youingster & the EPO era kind of killed any credibility the sport had for me in terms of athletic performance. Unfortunately for Armstrong & any riders since the Festina affair - there will always be question marks raised by exceptional performances. I respect Armstrong more for his comeback ( He has a hell of a lot to lose if he failed a drugs test ) than his number of Tour wins.
 

jags

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Re: Most important athlete of all-time?
« Reply #26 on: May 23, 2010, 10:27:42 pm »
i have no idea if lance ever took drugs or lemond or merckx or any of the top riders down through the years, but there's people who will do anything to proove they did .in my book i admire them all there the tops supermen on bikes.
you have got to remember these guy's cover around 50 to 60 ,000 km a year and most of it a race speed so there body's are well trained .
but listen what do i know all i know is i love cycling and lance and all the other pro's life is hard for those guys so dont be giving them to much grief ;)

Fred A-M

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Re: Most important athlete of all-time?
« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2010, 08:25:33 pm »
Jags

I don't dispute that they train hard - but feel that I have made my point convincingly enough.

I wish I could be as forgiving as you in my outlook but the circumstantial evidence is simply too overwhelming for me in Armstrong's case as is my perception of his arrogance.

I have have the misfortune to be French following a tour that a Frenchman hasn't won in approx 20 years - that said I have at least discovered my dislike of Armstrong isn't based on anti-americanism given that my research has led me to conclude that Lemond has definitely been one of the more inspiring and credible tour winners - the sport needs a lot more like him and Moncoutie in my opinion if it is ever to salvage its reputation. 
 

Fred A-M

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Re: Most important athlete of all-time?
« Reply #28 on: January 29, 2011, 12:21:18 pm »
"His goose is cooked" - not conclusive evidence I appreciate, but I'd say it's looking ominous for Armstrong!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/mattslater/2011/01/lance_armstrong_an_icon_under.html

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1180944/1/index.htm
 

bobs

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Re: Most important athlete of all-time?
« Reply #29 on: January 29, 2011, 01:09:50 pm »
I think Lance must be one of the most tested athletes of all time. Have any of these test been positive or are they all inconclusive?

Bob