Author Topic: Drop 'bars & Rohloff: A dozen differ'nt ways  (Read 55453 times)

il padrone

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Re: Drop 'bars & Rohloff: A dozen differ'nt ways
« Reply #30 on: June 24, 2012, 02:55:56 PM »
The "knob" that you show was made to be mounted on the frame and it has the same disadvantage that the Gilles Berthoud shifter that the cables and the drum are not protected from dirt, water... 
I would agree with this - bare cables leading into the housing is not such a good idea. But that is not what I was saying - the Rohloff shifter as is, is a good simple idea and works well.


I have also seen the electronic/electric shifter this is a nice solution but it is very bulky.  Seen what Shimano did on the Di2, it probably would be possible to make a very small electronic shifter but it requires big investments that Shimano and Campagnolo are able to do but impossible for a small company.
I believe that the range of cable pull for a derailleur gear system is a good deal less than for the Rohloff - the reason why this is a problem adapting other shifter designs. I think that would present difficulties for a Di2 tpe of electronic shift - the motor would need to work a longer range and perhaps have a larger actuator.

swc7916

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Re: Drop 'bars & Rohloff: A dozen differ'nt ways
« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2012, 02:56:20 PM »
My shifter was originally set up like this:



But l found the location and wrist angle required to rotate it to be awkward.  I had it moved to the right barend and I find it much more ergonomic than regular barend shifters.  My hand falls right on it without having having to look for it and the rotation is natural because of the neutral wrist angle.  Now if I could only remember which way to turn it!

fleur

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Re: Drop 'bars & Rohloff: A dozen differ'nt ways
« Reply #32 on: June 26, 2012, 08:50:27 AM »
When I look at the Rohloff cable routing on your beautiful tandem, I see that it actually looks like a routing made for a derailleur system : tight cables with only small parts with an outer casing and/or cable guides and big parts with bare cables instead of a continuous outer casing from the grip to the hub and relatively loose cables as recommended for optimal gear switching of  a Rohloff hub and as implemented on the Raven Twin tandem for instance.

I am also curious how you put the Rohloff shifter at the end of your right barend : in the normal position or reversed (to rotate with your wrist instead of thumb and first finger), do you have a picture of the modified implementation of the shifter ?  FYI, on my tandem, I have to rotate it with my wrist and found that the new Rohloff shifter (called the lightweight version) is easier to operate when installed like that.

swc7916

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Re: Drop 'bars & Rohloff: A dozen differ'nt ways
« Reply #33 on: June 26, 2012, 03:13:35 PM »
When I look at the Rohloff cable routing on your beautiful tandem, I see that it actually looks like a routing made for a derailleur system : tight cables with only small parts with an outer casing and/or cable guides and big parts with bare cables instead of a continuous outer casing from the grip to the hub and relatively loose cables as recommended for optimal gear switching of  a Rohloff hub and as implemented on the Raven Twin tandem for instance

The cable runs through housings from the shifter to the downtube and is bare from there to the chainstay, where it runs though housings up to the shift box.  The Rohloff cable that runs in housings all the way only looks loose because it doesn't have to be tight, it can be just hung from the frame.  I think that the bare cabling looks better and since our tandem is ridden exclusively on-road, dirt getting into the housings is not an issue.

Quote
I am also curious how you put the Rohloff shifter at the end of your right barend : in the normal position or reversed (to rotate with your wrist instead of thumb and first finger), do you have a picture of the modified implementation of the shifter ?  FYI, on my tandem, I have to rotate it with my wrist and found that the new Rohloff shifter (called the lightweight version) is easier to operate when installed like that.

I don't have a photo, but it's mounted just like this one:



It's just stuck on the right barend with a Hubbub adapter.  I don't know what you mean by wrist instead of thumb and first finger, but I just drop my hand to the barend and turn it either toward me or away from me.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2012, 03:17:13 PM by swc7916 »

fleur

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Re: Drop 'bars & Rohloff: A dozen differ'nt ways
« Reply #34 on: June 26, 2012, 09:47:00 PM »
The cable runs through housings from the shifter to the downtube and is bare from there to the chainstay, where it runs though housings up to the shift box.  The Rohloff cable that runs in housings all the way only looks loose because it doesn't have to be tight, it can be just hung from the frame.  I think that the bare cabling looks better and since our tandem is ridden exclusively on-road, dirt getting into the housings is not an issue.

Since there are two cables, one to shift up from 1 ro 14 and another one to shift down from 14 to 1 with the indexing in the hub, it is advised to have relatively loose cables with a Rohloff, not tight cables like with a derailleur system where the indexing is in the grips or levers.  There are explanation of this on the Thorn website.  The bare parts of the cables force you to have them relatively tight.



It's just stuck on the right barend with a Hubbub adapter.  I don't know what you mean by wrist instead of thumb and first finger, but I just drop my hand to the barend and turn it either toward me or away from me.

I mean turning the shifter the other way around to have the cables output at the extremity of your barend instead of the rubber rotating part of the shifter.  Then the rubber part comes under your wrist when your hand is on your barend.

swc7916

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Re: Drop 'bars & Rohloff: A dozen differ'nt ways
« Reply #35 on: June 26, 2012, 10:27:55 PM »
Since there are two cables, one to shift up from 1 ro 14 and another one to shift down from 14 to 1 with the indexing in the hub, it is advised to have relatively loose cables with a Rohloff, not tight cables like with a derailleur system where the indexing is in the grips or levers.  There are explanation of this on the Thorn website.  The bare parts of the cables force you to have them relatively tight.

Cables in a derailleur system are tight because they're under spring tension.  What you want in a Rohloff system just a little bit of play in the shifter.  My cables are not "tight"; it doesn't take much slack to provide the play needed.

MacB

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Re: Drop 'bars & Rohloff: A dozen differ'nt ways
« Reply #36 on: June 27, 2012, 12:37:48 PM »
It's worth noting that the lighter rohloff shifter may make the bar end orientation reversible. If you slide the shifter on the other way round then you can shift without removing your hand from the drops.

il padrone

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Re: Drop 'bars & Rohloff: A dozen differ'nt ways
« Reply #37 on: June 27, 2012, 02:31:03 PM »
It's worth noting that the lighter rohloff shifter may make the bar end orientation reversible. If you slide the shifter on the other way round then you can shift without removing your hand from the drops.
You can do this with either the old or the new shifter, but I think it is all a bit of a moot point anyway. Either way around you would just slide your hand back to the shifter.

freddered

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Re: Drop 'bars & Rohloff: A dozen differ'nt ways
« Reply #38 on: July 18, 2012, 06:40:09 PM »


This has worked well for me.  Like most Rohloff owners I am always looking for the Holy Grail Shifter but, that would be an STI solution.

The accessory bar solution is as convenient as I need.  It's a heavy touring bike that I ride in a relaxed way.  I'm not changing gear every few seconds like I find myself doing on my 30spd 105 road bike.

If I think back a few years then I was happily using downtube shifters.  The accessory bar solution is better than that.

Basically I stopped looking for the Holy Grail after a lovely camping trip in France this year.  I don't remember changing gear so it can't have been an issue.
 

Danneaux

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Re: Drop 'bars & Rohloff: A dozen differ'nt ways
« Reply #39 on: July 18, 2012, 09:14:50 PM »
Hi Fred,

Thanks very much for posting that photo of your Rohloff shifter mount with drop handlebars. For many reasons, it is the approach that appeals most to me at present. It is clean, handy, and about the same reach as one would have to bar-end shifters.

Fred...do you think the same shifter setup could be successfully mounted on a Thorn 105mm Accessory T-bar, as used to support a handlebar bag? It would sit a bit farther ahead than your 55mm version, but would be an elegant way of combining a bar-bag mount with the shifter if it could be done.

Or, if there was enough room on the steerer below the stem, perhaps the two T-bars could be stacked; they're surprisingly light....

Here's photos of both from SJS Cycles:
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/thorn-accessory-bar-t-shaped-105-mm-extension-0-deg-prod11040/
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/thorn-accessory-bar-t-shaped-55-mm-extension-0-deg-prod11041/

Best,

Dan.

martinf

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Re: Drop 'bars & Rohloff: A dozen differ'nt ways
« Reply #40 on: July 19, 2012, 07:43:53 AM »
I'm still undecided whether to choose a flat bar or drops when I order my Nomad.

Done about 600 kms so far on my current bike trying out flat bars/bar-ends. As I intend to use the bike for local commuting when I get the Nomad I also fitted a Nexus 8 Premium hub gear to "simulate" the Rohloff, but with Alfine rapidfire shifter rather than twistgrip.

The bar-ends I am currently trying are the long ones that curve back inwards, so I have 3 main hand positions like I had on the drops. For these tests I put the shifter in the usual place for a flat bar, on the tops next to the right-hand brake lever.

In the 1st hand position on the tops I definitely prefer flat bars.
In the 2nd position gripping the longitudinal bit of the bar-ends with flat bars or on the lever hoods with drops I prefer the drops.
The 3rd position is more stretched out and either gripping the transversal bit of the bar-ends or crouched down on the drops. I don't use this position so often, so the difference between flats and drops in this position matters less for me.

The way I had my drops set up has another advantage - braking in all 3 positions, with the auxiliary levers on the tops. With flat bars I can only brake in the 1st position.

Because the brakes and gears are in the 1st position with flat bars I find I spend proportionately more time there - maybe 50/60 %. With drops I spend 70/90% of time in the 2nd position on the hoods.

If I go for drop bars I am considering 3 different solutions for the gear shifter:

A- use the Berthoud shifter and have it on the tops near the stem.
B- fit the shifter in the bar-end position (with Berthoud no need for the Hubbub adapter?). I had bar end shifters with derailleur gears and never noticed any problems apart from occasionally banging or scraping the shifter when parking the bike.
C- have the Rohloff shifter on an extension bar under the main handlebar. I briefly had this setup on a drop bar Moulton with a SRAM 7 gripshift, but didn't really use it enough to know whether it was a good solution for me or not.

Solution A looks neatest, but I am not sure whether it would work with auxiliary brake levers on the tops.

Solution B might be better for me as I am already used to moving my hand from hoods to bar-end.

I don't use a handlebar bag and don't have GPS or lights on the bars, so handlebar space/cable clearance isn't really an issue for me.



Danneaux

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Re: Drop 'bars & Rohloff: A dozen differ'nt ways
« Reply #41 on: July 19, 2012, 08:14:36 AM »
Hi Martin!

On the theory it might help to hear a similar view, I'll weigh in here again.

I'm really fascinated by your post, as it includes so many of my own concerns, particularly when you wrote...
Quote
The way I had my drops set up has another advantage - braking in all 3 positions, with the auxiliary levers on the tops. With flat bars I can only brake in the 1st position.
Like you, I use auxiliary levers on the tops of my drop 'bars, and have found them to be really helpful. I also use wide (44cm) drop 'bars, and -- yes -- I do ride most of the time atop the brake hoods. However, I also spend a surprising amount of time on the drops (hooks), particularly when going into a headwind. In my desert touring, afternoon winds regularly hold steady at 35-39mph/56-63kph, with gusts to about 45mph/72kph. I spent a lot of my time riding north along the North Sea in The Netherlands in similar winds, pedaling with my "knees inside my elbows" to present a smaller face to the wind.

I have found my wrists (hyperflexion on one, hyperextension on the other from a ballooning accident when dumped out of a gondola), elbows (tennis elbow/tendonitis), and shoulders (rotator cuff and separations from a past car accident) just don't tolerate straight 'bars well. My palms like to face each other when I extend my arms. 'Bar ends on straight 'bars would be a ready option (same position as atop brake hoods, just as you've found), but I have no drops, and no brakes on the bar-ends (also as you've found).

I pretty much have to make drop 'bars work for me, and I need braking in all three major positions. With drops, if I spend 90% of my time atop the hoods, it is also with my fingers wrapped around the lever blades. On the tops, I have my interrupter levers. On the drops, I have the full length of the regular brake levers to grab.

Thinking about Pete's (Il Padrone's) very good suggestion of H-bars...they come very close, but I would need to use them with two sets of levers. I have even considered fitting bullhorn pursuit-style 'bars in place of drops -- I'd have the tops and a wonderful forward extension wthout the weight or complication of bar-ends...but no drops, which I would miss terribly for the times when I really need/want them (wind).

The Berthoud shifter would be the best option if one shifts frequently, as many owners suggest is the case with Rohloff, thanks to its ease of use. However, I don't think the Berthoud shifter would give me the room I need for my other stuff. Unlike you, I'll be carrying a handlebar bag, and there's a lot going on near the stem (see pics here: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=3896.msg17095#msg17095 ).  Also, I have some concerns about the uncoated aluminum surface in extreme heat and cold. Air temps are often around 124F/51C in the desert or down around 5F/-15 on mountain passes in shoulder seasons. Aluminum is a great conductor of both heat and cold, and I'm a little concerned the shifter could get awfully hot/cold. Maybe this is a baseless concern, but it did occur to me. Thoughts?

A bar-end position is promising and very close the familiar bar-end shifter position. The "Rohloff on T-bar" like Rual's is not much of an adjustment if you're used to downtube shifters as I am.

Still trying to decide myself...please let us know when you reach a decision; I'd love to hear which you go with, and how it works out for you.

Best,

Dan.

Danneaux

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Re: Drop 'bars & Rohloff: A dozen differ'nt ways
« Reply #42 on: July 19, 2012, 08:18:56 AM »
Hi All!

For the person who will be going the Rohloff route but has never ridden one, a question for those more experienced:

How much force is required for a Rohloff shift? Does the shifter require a palm-and-fingers grip, or could it be accomplished on a T-bar by "spinning" the grip with only the finger-tips? I've sometimes heard the eaction compared to turning a doorknob, but I've found doorknobs vary a lot in the force required to turn them.

The amount of force required would make a difference in which location I chose.

Thanks in advance for any first-person accounts wrt shifting force required.

Best,

Dan.

rualexander

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Re: Drop 'bars & Rohloff: A dozen differ'nt ways
« Reply #43 on: July 19, 2012, 08:42:50 AM »
Dan,
Fingertip 'spinning' of the shifter wouldn't really be possible, its a bit stiffer to turn than that.
My shifter is on the bar end using hubub adapter, and I like it there, much better than the other options in my opinion, mainly because you can hold the shifter and steer easily at the same time, as your hand is out where you get good leverage on the bars, and also because if you are riding on the hoods you just let your hand naturally drop down a few inches and the shifter is right there. Inboard shifter positions such as on a t-bar or on the tops, seem less convenient to me and you have less steering control if your hand is in near the centreline of the bike while you change gear.

NZPeterG

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Re: Drop 'bars & Rohloff: A dozen differ'nt ways
« Reply #44 on: July 19, 2012, 08:46:01 AM »
Hi All I love running Drop Bar's too and after year's trying to mount the the Rohloff gear change on and about the H'Bar's.
Thorn 55mm Accessory T-bar worked OK until I climbed my 1st hill standing! knee hit it  :(
Mount on bar end was OK But I did not like it for me!
I tryed to mount off the front (by stem) no room for my finger's  :'( I think using a 105mm T-Bar would be the same?
I ended up running it off the side of the stem, I welded up a mounting that replaced the top cap (I would love to add photo of it but can not work out how too ??  :-[)
It worked good for me, But i'm alway's looking for a new idea!
For my next bike (my New Nomad) i'm going to try running a set of Jeff Jones Loop H-BarŪ handlebar's.
All most all of the hand placements of a Good Drop Bar!  :o
Can only try new thing's and see?

Pete
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