Author Topic: 10 speed v 9 speed  (Read 7210 times)

Andybg

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10 speed v 9 speed
« on: April 15, 2014, 05:33:18 am »
Thorn have moved from 9 speed to 10 speed transmissions.

What are your views. Is it an improvement or a specification change "forced" by component suppliers and availability?

How does 10 speed compare in terms of strength and durability?

Andy


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Re: 10 speed v 9 speed
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2014, 07:55:51 am »
Is it an improvement or a specification change "forced" by component suppliers and availability?

First off, I don't think this question has to be either/or, in other words we have to consider the possibility that 10 speed could be an improvement AND be forced by manufacturers.

I have known a few curmudgeons who at one time looked disapprovingly upon the 7 speed cassette on my Galaxy muttering that nobody needs more than 5-speed, this will always happen.

I bought a new audax bike a few months ago with 10-speed and a compact (50/34) double chainset, I had been sceptical about this for a long time since I had become used to a triple crankset. However, the compact double with 10-speed gives me almost exactly the same gear range as the triple crankset and the 8-speed cassete on my favourite bike. So, first impressions are very positive on 10-speed.

In terms of strength, I would assume if it is strong enough for Mark Cavendish then it will do for me.

I haven't had the 10-speed long enough to comment on durability; but I will not overly concern myself about that since I don't consider the cash outlay for a new chain to be a major disaster. (I will await pelters for that comment since I got shot down once for suggesting buying new Rohloff oil plugs at 2 a hit was a good idea.)

Having said that, it may be that expedition tourers might need to fit a new 10-speed chain more often before embarking on their adventures, but not a great expense in the grand scheme of all that is required for self-sufficiency. I also have no idea about availability of 10-speed parts in far flung parts of the world.

So, I think 10-speed is part of the evolution of 'mainstream cycling and it suits me fine for an audax type bike; expedition tourers might need something stronger and more reliable, but the answer for them is Rohloff.

I think this could be an interesting discussion.   ;)

Jim

bikerta

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Re: 10 speed v 9 speed
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2014, 08:53:15 am »
I have been doing a little bit of reading up on this as well in case I were to purchase the new Sherpa. From what I can gather you don't actually gain very much on a triple ring set up apart from the fact that the ratios are a little closer together making the gear changes a little smoother. You don't actually gain an extra low gear or high gear as such. It is the  double ring set up that most people welcome the change to 10 speed as already mentioned, many people can now achieve an ideal set up using only 2 rings instead of 3 which saves weight.

I don't think the reliability is very much different, but some people are saying that some of the parts for the 10 speed are more expensive than the 9 speed, this could however be due to the fact that a lot of the 9 speed gear is being reduced. There is definitely the element of marketing too!

leftpoole

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Re: 10 speed v 9 speed
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2014, 09:36:36 am »
Hello,
I am at present 'stocking up' with all 9 speed parts I think might be required in the future (if I have one).
The use of 10 speed equipment on a touring bike is just silly. 10 speed and indeed 9 speed is designed for faster riding, hence more or narrower ratios. All that is required on a touring bike are around 6 various ratios (in my opinion) and I personally feel that 10 sprockets or indeed more to come is simply ridiculous and wasteful not only of the parts but plenty of money!
I regret the day I changed from 8 speed.
Compact chainset is a possible idea but that can be utilised with 8 or 9 speed anyhow. All in all it is Tour de France guys that use these gears and not us.
Best regards,
John

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Re: 10 speed v 9 speed
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2014, 11:00:33 am »
Hi John,

I would not argue against anything you say, but the simple fact of life is that touring bikes have been using mountain bike components for years now, and the MTB component designers simply don't take the needs of touring cyclists into consideration.

Mountain bike components have now gone 11-speed on XTR, which probably means that 11-speed will filter down to Deore in a few years time.

I hope you get all the 9-speed gear you need John.

Jim


NZPeterG

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Re: 10 speed v 9 speed
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2014, 11:27:03 am »
I stuck to 8 speed for a long time until it was too hard replacing them with good parts!
I have just got a new Adventure Touring bike that has 9 speed on it and i'm thinking to charge it over to 10 speed.
How with 10 speed you can get 11 to 36T cass's and with 9 speed it's 11 (or 12T) to 32t Cass!
The new XX1/XO1 11 speed chain's are stronger the any none singlespeed chain's!
I do have a Carbon Fully with 1 by 11 MTB (XO1) the front chainring is 30T (at this time) and XX1 and XO1 cass's are 10 to 42T and this is great for cycle touring too, wide spacing and Simple!
So do not get stuck in the passed, and more on..... Sram are going to come out with a 1 by 11 in the next few years for just Cycle Touring :) Yes that is right for Cycle Touring Only.............
Kiwi Pete....

  
« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 11:30:59 am by NZPeterG »
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martinf

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Re: 10 speed v 9 speed
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2014, 08:30:41 am »
Thorn have moved from 9 speed to 10 speed transmissions.

What are your views. Is it an improvement or a specification change "forced" by component suppliers and availability?

I stopped at 8 speed. The mechanic in my LBS advised it was more difficult to join and split 9 and 10 speed chains, and he reckons 9 and 10 speed systems are more fiddly to set up and don't last as long.

I only have one bike left with a traditional derailleur setup, this has an old-fashioned 6-speed freewheel with half-step triple, quite sufficient for me in terms of gear range and close enough gear steps.

All the other family bikes now have hub gears.

NZPeterG

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Re: 10 speed v 9 speed
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2014, 10:56:07 am »
So this is just the start of better made chain's that are coming out!

http://youtu.be/_XbnaOh8uRI

As for 9 and 10 speed chain's being harder to joint ? this is so wrong! Sorry.

A good Sram Quick Link (coming in 8 and 9 speed) and Sram Power Link's (10 and 11 speed)
NOTE: Power Links are to be used only once!

As I said I was suck with the old and Things Do Get Better  :)

Kiwi Pete (Full Time Cycle Mech @ one of the Best LBS  ;D)

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honesty

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Re: 10 speed v 9 speed
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2014, 11:29:14 am »
I think the change to 10 speed was forced because of the move of all STI's to 10 speed apart from Sora which is now 9. If you want to offer an STI bike and have it look attractive to the buyers you need to be at 10 speed. Sora is still perceived as a cheap (as in a bit rubbish) group set so if you want to go Tiagra you need to be at 10.

Now saying all that as long as you can get 9 speed rear mountain derailleurs this is not a problem as these work well with 10 speed STIs and give you the option for a big rear cassette (11-36) and most 10 speed groups will take a 11-32 now as well.

the big change thats going to come is the change up to 11. Shimano have just released 105 at 11 with no triple, and it cant be that many years in the future that this will happen to Tiagra which will again leave you with the low end sora as the only option.

NZPeterG

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Re: 10 speed v 9 speed
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2014, 11:36:35 am »
I think the change to 10 speed was forced because of the move of all STI's to 10 speed apart from Sora which is now 9. If you want to offer an STI bike and have it look attractive to the buyers you need to be at 10 speed. Sora is still perceived as a cheap (as in a bit rubbish) group set so if you want to go Tiagra you need to be at 10.

Now saying all that as long as you can get 9 speed rear mountain derailleurs this is not a problem as these work well with 10 speed STIs and give you the option for a big rear cassette (11-36) and most 10 speed groups will take a 11-32 now as well.

the big change thats going to come is the change up to 11. Shimano have just released 105 at 11 with no triple, and it cant be that many years in the future that this will happen to Tiagra which will again leave you with the low end sora as the only option.

So True, The new up coming 1 by 11 Cycle Touring Groupset is the way forward  :)

Have Fun Riding  :D

Kiwi Pete...

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honesty

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Re: 10 speed v 9 speed
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2014, 12:10:27 pm »
Im probably with you on that one (at least on my heavy touring bike), but for 1 point the size of the cassette is really going to affect the strength of the back wheel because of the dish needed. Unless they start using wider rear hubs to counter act this, at which point its outside with the steel frame jumping on the back to spread it or a new frame ;)

jags

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Re: 10 speed v 9 speed
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2014, 01:05:13 pm »
as long as the chain is strong to take on loaded touring.
to be totally honest i dont see the point in an extra  sproket.what choice have you the biggest sproket on the rear is 32 i think smallest 10 who in there right mind would need a 10 on a touring bike .
but no poing in arguing its 10 speed and that it end of story.
if i had the dosh i would be buying loads of spare 9 speed parts maybe now they might even come down in price  ;)

in your dreams anto boy in your dreams.


anto.

NZPeterG

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Re: 10 speed v 9 speed
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2014, 09:16:34 am »
Im probably with you on that one (at least on my heavy touring bike), but for 1 point the size of the cassette is really going to affect the strength of the back wheel because of the dish needed. Unless they start using wider rear hubs to counter act this, at which point its outside with the steel frame jumping on the back to spread it or a new frame ;)

Hi no more dishing as with a 42t



It seat's out more being bigger in size! On MTB's the Hub spacing is getting wider to help build strong wheels.
There is no need to do this, but the hub needs to have the Freehub shell changed from the STD Shimano 8/9 speed body to the Sram XD Driver Body, most good top end hubs this is just a remove and change over.
One Shifter and 11 wide spaced Gears, The Chainring is made for a fast change over so for hilly part of the world you would run a 28T or 30T and in flat lands you just change this to a 32, 34, 36, or 38T and maybe more when the Touring group come's out.

Strong, Light, Simple, Fast Chaning,  :)

Kiwi Pete....
« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 09:20:27 am by NZPeterG »
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honesty

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Re: 10 speed v 9 speed
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2014, 09:38:26 am »
Ive seen the new Sram CX1 which is the cyclocross specific version of this, and its all set to work with Force drop bar levers, which is nice. I dont think the XX1 currently is interoperable with the road 11 speed gears, and I'm guessing the touring one is going to be based around the mountain bike system as the gear ratios of the cyclocross one just dont go low enough if you ask me, which would be a bit of a pitty as you'll be stuck to flat bars. I do think 1x11 is a consideration when looking at these things, but at the moment the cost of the high end sram mountain bike system is about the same as a rohloff!

I would be really interested in seeing what they do for touring!
« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 09:43:56 am by honesty »

triaesthete

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Re: 10 speed v 9 speed
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2014, 11:44:14 am »

I think the change is largely forced. All boats are lifted with the tide of discs/umpteen speed/titanium/complexity.... I'm sure the general inference of the Thorn brochures is that derailleurs per se are a forced offering!

Whilst ten speed chains don't lack any tensile strength relative to eight and nine (ie no one ever breaks one purely by applying load to the pedals) they have relatively smaller internal bearing surface area and thinner side plates and would appear to need closer build tolerances and better hardening and materials other things being equal.

I've paid my own cash money for brand new no expense spared  Ultegra 10 speed 6600sl compact double AND 6700 triple systems and not been enamoured of either. Particularly the finicky set up and imperfect indexing most noticeable with compact double: good spread on paper but all the mid range gears are at high cross over and small/ small crossover gears always result in chain rub on the side of adjacent sprocket and/or chain ring teeth. Sixteen tooth difference front shifting is also yukky and they need a lot of that too. All gone now and I haven't missed it!

But lightish derailleur bikes still offer a flowing ride that hub gears don't. So I've experimented my way  back to eight speed wide range rear and super compact 34/44 front road/mountain/friction hybrid without any functional compromise and some improvements to my taste and cost benefit so far. The pathos of a MAMIL struggling up Pennine hills on 34/27 (even on an 8kg bike) is moving.

I also arrived at running 1x8 on an old mtb with friction shift with a fully usable pottering gear range and tiny sunk cost and weight....

Has anyone here tried a Sturmey Archer two or three speed fixie as these are currently making the propeller on my hat spin?

Trying it on now Sirs
Ian