Author Topic: Building up a Thorn Club Tour - Braking  (Read 4638 times)

Moorland Rider

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Building up a Thorn Club Tour - Braking
« on: August 26, 2013, 10:17:54 pm »
I'm building up a club tour for my girlfriend.  I purchased it from thorn as a repaired frame and we're having it sprayed by Bob Jackson at the minute in Peppermint, hoping it will look great :)

We will be speccing the bike ourselves and want to spend the time to consider and choose some reliable high quality parts, not necessarily very expensive parts but we want it to look the part.

Strangely enough one of my first considerations was braking.  We want to fit drop bars and the first consideration is v-brake or cantis?  What is the consensus on this?  I have read that v-brakes are more powerfu so i'm leaning towards v-brakes.  Does anyone know if there is any discernable difference between short arm and long arm v-brakes?  I have seen these on SJS :http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/shimano-deore-xt-br-t780-v-brake-prod27299/ and also these http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/tektro-tektro-926al-mini-v-brake-black-prod23904/

Hoping to get the frame back from Bob Jackson this week so will post a photo when it arrives!

jags

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Re: Building up a Thorn Club Tour - Braking
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2013, 11:11:06 pm »
i have PAUL canti's on my sherpa with kool stop salmon pads excellent  set up,no idea about V breaks .crankset the stronglight impact triple is  class ;) fizik bartape  excellent/schwalble supreams excellent/brooks b17  ;)zefal hcx very good/

Danneaux

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Re: Building up a Thorn Club Tour - Braking
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2013, 11:48:59 pm »
Hi Moor'!

I don't own a ClubTour so I can't say for sure, but many 700C road bike-based tourers lack the necessary standoff between brake bosses and rim to allow fitting v-brakes. There simply isn't room on the bikes I own of that sort, and so I use cantilevers instead.

A quick check of the Cub Tour brochure ( http://www.sjscycles.com/thornpdf/ThornClubTourBroHiRes.pdf ), page 7, shows Thorn fit cantilevers on Club Tours.

It might be worth a quick email or phone call to SJS Cycles to check for sure before laying out for v-brakes that might not fit.

Looking forward to seeing the finished result when it comes back from BJ's paintworks.

Best,

Dan.

leftpoole

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Re: Building up a Thorn Club Tour - Braking
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2013, 08:47:47 am »
Hi Moor'!

I don't own a ClubTour so I can't say for sure, but many 700C road bike-based tourers lack the necessary standoff between brake bosses and rim to allow fitting v-brakes. There simply isn't room on the bikes I own of that sort, and so I use cantilevers instead.

A quick check of the Cub Tour brochure ( http://www.sjscycles.com/thornpdf/ThornClubTourBroHiRes.pdf ), page 7, shows Thorn fit cantilevers on Club Tours.

It might be worth a quick email or phone call to SJS Cycles to check for sure before laying out for v-brakes that might not fit.

Looking forward to seeing the finished result when it comes back from BJ's paintworks.

Best,

Dan.

No requirement to call St John Street!

I use V brakes with suitable drop bar levers. They are superb following many years of cantilever nightmare.......
Many V brake types are available and so I am not going to mention the ones on my own Club Tour.
Best of luck building and collecting the parts together for the bike.
John

JWestland

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Re: Building up a Thorn Club Tour - Braking
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2013, 10:24:26 am »
I've Avid Shorty on my XTC so far so good. Canti don't have the brute stopping force of rim brakes, but they won't block your wheel either. Bit fiddly to stop squealing, but they clear mud etc. and therefore canti's are still in use in cyclocross/MTB

Shimano XTR V-brakes (the older ones, no doubt you can get them on Fleabay) were much loved by SJS (and my boyfriend) that's another option.

Happy cycling!
Pedal to the metal! Wind, rain, hills, braking power permitting ;)

NZPeterG

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Re: Building up a Thorn Club Tour - Braking
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2013, 10:59:30 am »
Get the most out of your canti brake...
Most People dissatisfaction with them is simply because they aren't set up properly.  

There are several things that affect cantilever brake performance and they are all easily addressed and fixed.  The first one is the actual brake pad itself.  A thick brake pad, like the one used on Shimano canti brakes during the hey day of cantilever equipped mountain bikes is the worst choice for good performance (and maybe this is where the root of cantilever hatred lies).  A thick brake pad may last a long time but the brake power is losted.

Thick pads are squishy.  When you apply the brakes on a bike with thick pads by squeezing the lever, the pad hits the rim and as you squeeze, you might feel mush.  Part of that is the pad compressing.  To solve this issue, thin brake pads are immensely helpful.  The KoolStop Thinline pad works great.  Very little flex/compression going on at the brake pad if you are running Thinline pads. But the thin pads will wear out faster.  So what.  This simply means that the brake adjustment - the pad to rim contact - will be optimal longer.

Pad positioning on the arm with threaded pads, you have to make the pad to arm junction as close to 90 degrees as possible when the pad hits the rim.  
What does this mean? threaded pads have a series of washers that fit on both sides of the brake arm.  The spot where the pads fit on the arms is slotted for up and down adjustment.  Try to make this slotted part of the arm be perpendicular to the brake pad post when the pad contacts the rim.  Why?  Because this lets the pad hit the rim as squarely as possible.  Too far past 90 degrees and the brake loses power (especially true with v-brakes) and when the arm is past 90 degrees, it's on its way to promoting the pad diving under the rim.  Square up the arm/pad/rim geometry.  This is easy to do by making sure the concave/convex washers are on the proper side of the arm.  The Thinline pads also have another 1mm thin washer to further fine-tune this aspect.  On canti brakes with eye bolts, it's easy to move the pad to its desired position.

Straddle cable and yoke position is crucial to get the straddle cable carrier (yoke) installed in the right position based on the type of brakes you are running.  Simply put, you want to try to achieve a 90 degree angle between the pivot bolt/cable anchor/straddle cable.  The angle formed if you drew a line from the pivot bolt to the cable anchor on the arm and along the straddle cable should be around 90 degrees.  This gives you a good combination of modulation and power.  It's possible to alter this angle to get more power, giving up modulation.  A rough rule of thumb is low-profile brakes require a low straddle cable carrier position, wide profile brakes require a high straddle cable carrier position.  Going even lower on a low-profile brake will give you more power, but the modulation will be lower and the brake pads will need to be set closer to the rim.  This position also will feel a little mushy at the lever.  Most lower profile canti brakes I see have the straddle carrier set too high.  This might feel good at the lever; solid feeling, you might say, but when you need to hit the brakes you won't have the power needed to stop.

Other overlooked details are cable flex and cable line.  You've just tightened the bolt securing your straddle cable and you think you're done.  After all, the brake pads are adjusted.  The straddle cable carrier is positioned just so.  The lever works.  The pads close and open.  However, chances are, you are not done.  There's one more trick you can do to get the most out of your canti brakes.  Straighten the straddle cable.  If your straddle cable has any kind of curve to it between the brake arm and the carrier yoke, when you apply the brake lever, some of that lever movement is taken up in straightening the cable.  By physically bending the cable over the yoke and where it's anchored, you'll get a straight line and all of the lever movement will go into applying brake pressure to the rim.

To fully embrace the cantilever brake.  It's pretty awesome when it's set up properly.  Here's some photos illustrating (hopefully) cantilever brakes.



Notice the curve in the straddle cable.  This is before straightening it.



After straightening.  Simply bend the straddle cable with your fingers where it comes off the yoke.  Easy.



Avid Ultimate are the best Canti brakes made so far But cost loads  :o



The right arm has the pad set up properly with the thick washer on the inside.  The left arm has the thin washer on the inside and the arm is past the perpendicular position to the rim.



An example of a thick brake pad that can potentially rob the brake of power.  Is it a coincidence that this brake arm shape, coupled with the thick pad, and that all of these brakes, at the time, were supplied with a one-piece straddle cable assembly that did not allow for proper straddle height came out in the heyday of the mountain bike which means that the vast majority of people were simply set up with canti brakes that weren't optimal.  Could this be the impetus of cantilever disdain?


I do not use one-piece straddle cable carrier when I set any one Canti Brakes because the straddle height is not right for optimal performance.  Many cantilever brakes are supplied with one-piece straddles in various lengths that can be used to get a proper straddle position, but its ever right! so I set up my brakes with a Yoke and Cross cable as above and bin the cable's below!



So are V-Brakes or Canti Brake's Best! as above most brakes are set up badly in the 1st place and most people (and Cycle Shop Mechanics) do not know how to set up Canti Brakes.

So if you set up a pair of Canti Brakes as above then they are the same, V-Brakes where made in the 1st place to save time when bikes are build up overseas.

If you take your time and set up your V-Brake as above you will have brakes that are far better most Disc Brakes made! it's all in the set up  :(

Pete  :'(


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in4

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Re: Building up a Thorn Club Tour - Braking
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2013, 11:43:50 am »
Brilliant piece Pete. Very concise and informative.

peter jenkins

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Re: Building up a Thorn Club Tour - Braking
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2013, 12:13:21 pm »
According to the brochure, "Option Three - Trekking Spec" offers V brakes, albeit with a flat bar.

I have cantilevers on mine and have the odd spot of trouble with same as reported elsewhere on this forum, but Dan has written an opus on how to address the issue.

I must make time....

I wish I could fit callipers, though.

Cheers,

pj

mickeg

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Re: Building up a Thorn Club Tour - Braking
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2013, 12:45:38 pm »
I have the mini-V brakes on the rear on my foldup bike.  It has a cable pull that is approximately mid way between that of typical cantilever brakes and normal full size V brakes.  I am using them with the same brake levers that I would normally use with cantilever brakes.  The brakes feel a little soft and it is easy to apply too much force with those levers.  They only work with small tires due to the small size, fat tires or larger fenders would not have the clearance.

On the Surly Long Haul Truckers forum on Google Groups, a common recommendation to improve braking is the Koolstop Salmon pads.  I personally have not used them, just passing on info.

I prefer cantilever brakes over V brakes, but could not fit cantilever on my MkII Nomad on the front, there I use XT V brakes with a travel agent.  It works ok.  Have Tektro CR720 cantilevers on the rear, very happy with them, but I use a different straddle cable yoke than the one that was provided.

JWestland

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Re: Building up a Thorn Club Tour - Braking
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2013, 04:01:30 pm »
I second Kool Stop Salmon especially for wet braking. They are a bit softer so they "grip" harder.

Very hard braking pads don't seem to be a good choice for Canti's, as these *to me* seem more about progressive braking power with lots of modulation than a *brute force* stop.
Pedal to the metal! Wind, rain, hills, braking power permitting ;)