Self Build Wheels - how long to decide they are ok?

[sdg_77]

All - hopefully one someone can point me in the right direction here ...

I built my first set of wheels this week and have been out for a short test ride ~21km.  The wheels seem to be ok,  no creaking or tinkling noises and no brake rubbing, what I don't know is how long I should wait before deciding the wheels are a success.

I built them as a spare or winter set for the 'Sunday Morning' bikes,  700C, Tiagra hubs,  Mavic Open Sport rims and plain gauge DT spokes (mostly from SJSC)  The rear wheel is 36 spokes 3 cross and the front 32 spokes 3 cross.

I followed Roger Musson's book and they seemed to go together well enough, the truing and dishing was not as difficult as I expected,  I had to spend more time on getting the spokes up to a reasonable tension - if you like the time between 'built up loose' and 'ready for truing'.  I didn't go to to the expense of a tension gauge but my spokes are comparable to a set of good wheels I have in my commuter

Yesterday I put both wheels in the bike and rode round a 21km loop over some average local roads and cyclepaths.  Plenty of road-path transitions and a few sections of rough tarmac.  When I arrived home I put the new wheels back into the truing stand and they look to be ok - and comparing them to the original wheels from the bike they are equally true.

So - is it reasonable to assume these new wheels are finished?

Other info which might be relevant:

I'm neither particularly light or heavy ~77kg
or particularly fast
The rim/nipples/spoke threads were all lubricated with 3-in-1 before assembly
There were  several sessions of 'spoke squeezing' as the builds progressed
The wheels I used for comparison are ~15 years old and were built up by the LBS from similar quality components
My Sherpa wheels feel distinctly tighter than the new ones
The Sunday Morning bikes are Cannondale Synapses

thanks
sdg.

edit - trying to add a photo ....

[JimK]

Nice work! That is a task I have yet to attempt. A couple months ago I got my Mom's 40 yr old bike back on the road. The spokes were all loose so I tightened them up. I just used the fenders as my gauge.

Maybe you will want a few more intermediate test rides before you launch yourself across the Gobi desert with 200 lb of supplies, but those wheels sound fully and properly cooked to me, for whatever that amateur assessment is worth!

[NZPeterG]

Hi well done,
The hardiest part of wheel building is Not the Dishing or the Truing! BUt the tensioning of your wheels!

The best Wheels have 100% = tension on all your spokes (yes there is more tension on one side of your rear wheel)

So if you would like to build your wheels better then your LBS the best way is to use a tension gauge tool! Park Tools make a have well priced one which works very well. If you play Music and have a good ear then you can get very close with the sound of the ping of your spokes.

It is far better to have 100% = Tension and almost True! Then 100% True and Not = Tension.

The next wheels you build use some better oil then 3 in 1. like some Phil Wood, Rohloff, or one of the good spokes lubes that are made for the job.
I do not lube/oil my nipple's but use Loctite 222 on all my wheel builds and only lube the heads of my spokes nipples..

Happy Riding

Pete  

[sdg_77]

Jim - thanks - if you have sorted out old wheels a new build probably won't be as difficult.  I removed and then replaced a couple of spokes from a cheap wheel salvaged from my daughter's old MTB as a practice and found that more difficult than starting afresh with new quality components.

I'd recommend the Roger Musson book if you want to have a go yourself,  good diagrams and plain English explanations.

Peter - thanks - I'll have a look for those lubricants for next time.  Good to know the part I found most difficult is the right one ;-)  I tried using a home made nipple driver but ended up with the spokes too tight at first,  had to back them all off and go for three threads showing and then go one turn,  half a turn, quarter turn at a time on each spoke.  I think I might not have enough 'point' on the driver and/or went for the next  size down in spokes.  Having said that - there was plenty  of thread engaged once I had finished so the spoke lengths can't be too far off.

I am the world's worst guitar player but the spokes don't sound too far out to me - at least they are all in the same octave ;-)

We'll be in new Zealand (South Island)  in October for a 30th wedding anniversary trip,  hoping to hire a couple of bikes and get a few rides in.

Now tending to think I should use the new wheels for this weekend's  Sky Ride.  I'm not leading so no great disaster if I have to call she who must be obeyed for a rescue.

regards
sdg.

[Danneaux]

+1 to all in Pete's post, Steve; good stuff there. After carefully reading your post, I do wonder if the overall tension might be a smidge low. Do you have access to a tension meter?

Lacking one, you may wish to try the wheels on the Sky Ride and then recheck for trueness. The results of the check will tell you if tension was a bit low (needing some touch-up retruing) or if it is in the right range.

Well done! Congratulations on a nice, new set of handbuilt wheels!

Best,

Dan.

[sdg_77]

Thanks Dan - just had a 'spoke tapping' session in the garage. 

For those old enough to remember think wheeltappers and shunters without the flat cap ....

The new wheels sound even with the drive side rear obviously tighter.  Comparable to my old commuter with it's LBS wheels of a similar quality.  Squeezing by hand they feel the same and are again comparable to the LBS wheels.  So - I think  longer test at the weekend is worth the risk.

Just for fun ... the old cheap MTB salvaged wheels sound all over the shop and at a much lower note than any of the others.  The bladed aero spokes in the original wheels for my Synapse sound a much higher note than any of the other wheels,  but they have rather fewer spokes.

Drifting away from the point ... there is a fairly 'interesting' hill on Sunday's route so I may put discretion before valour and take the Thorn instead. 
The interesting hill is at around 11:08 in this brilliant old film ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP1KxPjh4RM


regards
sdg.

[Danneaux]

...there is a fairly 'interesting' hill on Sunday's route

Yeah! I'll say!

I think I remember that scene from an old Frank Patterson sketch.

Very best of luck on the ride, Steve; looking forward to hearing how thing went.

All the best,

Dan.

[sdg_77]

Oh Dear ... had another quick look at the new wheels before this morning's ride and found a couple of loose spokes in the non-drive side rear.  So .... left the original wheels in the bike for the ride and have ordered a Park tension meter.

As I often used to say ... if it was easy where would the challenge be?

sdg.

[Danneaux]

Hi Steve!

All encouragement your way -- you're already past several of the usual hurdles and with tension gauge in hand, you'll be well on the way to mastering that aspect as well. Correct tensioning without a gauge can be a tricky thing -- as it can with one (general caution for all users to Read the Instructions here: http://www.parktool.com/documents/127245b930147688032919c09d34bd52c3702f19.pdf ...and conversion table here: http://www.parktool.com/documents/e67c6090d7d95c23c6adf51afa2d34d8d5e32c5e.pdf )

I've built many wheels and formally taught the process to others in classes. I wish more people were brave enough to tackle building their own wheels. It is a great way to better understand what goes into a wheel, and the nicely laced result can still be tensioned and final-trued by the LBS at some savings.

You'll do fine, Steve.

As I often used to say ... if it was easy where would the challenge be?

Exactly! And there's where the joy lives -- in a thorough job well done!

Best of luck on your ride.

All the best,

Dan. (...who thinks DIY is cheap tuition for the education)

[jags]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caCloMziaCk

[sdg_77]

Dan, Jags,  thanks.  I'm intending to wait until the tension widget arrives and see how my 'all even by squeeze test' measures up in reality.

That video is one of the better ones,  and pretty close to what I did, so hopefully I just need to even up the spoke tensions.

Love those Park instructions ... the Mavic rims are specified for 100 kgf which is reassuringly near to the middle of the Park figures in both the table and the instructions.

Rehetorical question, do people really need to be told how to calculate an average?

sdg.

[Danneaux]

Rehetorical question, do people really need to be told how to calculate an average?

If you take all those who do and all those who don't and divide by two, then...yes.

At least in my experience.

 

Best,

Dan. (...who is speaking experientially and not methodologically)

[sdg_77]

Wonderful ... and my wife and son-in-law are both mathematics teachers!

sdg  (a mere engineer)

[sdg_77]

Short update ....

The Park Tension meter arrived yesterday and - Dan - you were right about the original build lacking tension.  The front wheel was OK,  mostly 20/21 on the deflection scale but the rear was barely 20 on the drive side and so ~15/16 on the non drive.

I left the front as it is and tightened all of the rear spokes by ~half a turn,  found the dishing had gone a long way off and so decided to slacken all of the spokes off and start again,  then decided I was not sure I hadn't mixed up the spokes in the original build and stripped the whole wheel for a start from scratch.

After much to and fro,  definitely getting the spokes mixed up and a couple of false starts, the wheel is now rebuilt,  runs true (ish) and the dishing is good.  

Peter - I went for your approach of even tension over absolute true running.

Drive sides now 24/25 and the non drives 19/21.  Pinched a couple of tubes getting the tyre back on, but both new wheels are back in the bike for a try-out tomorrow ;-)

Also had a run round my other wheels with the tension meter and they are not as evenly tensioned as the new wheels

Thanks for the advice and encouragement.
sdg.

[Danneaux]

Thanks for the advice and encouargement.

You're more than welcome, Steve; I'm really proud of you for persevering, and the results are not just in the wheels, but in the education as well.

It might not seem like it now, but it really does get easier with time and practice, and --also in time -- one can get a very close approximation of the tension meter with "feel" and tone, helpful for field repairs when the proper tools are left at home.

Peter - I went for your approach of even tension over absolute ture running.

This is a good choice between the two, and you can always even things up later if they're not too far out. I prefer to think of tensioning as "adding layers" of tension, truing each layer as I go, right from my first threading of the nipples. That way, the wheels are tensioned evenly *and* true as I go, which eases stress on the rims that can occur if tension varies widely throughout the wheel.

One thing to keep in mind...as tension increases, so does the tendency toward spoke windup -- the spoke will twist with the nipple rather than in it. As a result, radial and/or axial trueness will be affected and tension can be as well. The way I address it is to face the outside of the rim, looking toward the hub. I tension the nipple with a key in one hand as I lightly touch the spoke shaft with the fingers of the other. It is easy to feel the spoke windup and know how much to counter-turn the key to compensate -- say tighten 1/2 turn, back off 1/4, for example. When I taught wheelbuilding, I gave each student a Sharpie permanent marker and had them draw a line the length of the spoke so they could see the spoke windup. Made the concept easier to grasp and the marks came off with a dab of isopropyl alcohol on a paper tissue. For that matter, holding a marker against the sidewall as the wheel is spun highlights the high and low spots and sometimes makes it easier for newer wheelbuilders to see just where the wheel is out of true.

Good on ya! Can't wait to read the ride report.

All the best,

Dan. (...who will admit to the occasional lapse on initial lacing himself, as will anyone who's built a lot of wheels and is honest about it. The phone or doorbell rings and...where was I? )