Clipless cycling shoes/pedals for touring: Suggestions?

[Danneaux]

Very helpful information all, Ian, and much appreciated!

Really, this "Clipless Experience" has put me all the way back to newbie status, erasing most of the past 35 or so years of experience for shoes, pedals, cleat placement, and release tension. While I always welcome the chance to learn new things, it is also humbling how much I do have yet to learn about this new facet of cycling. The kind contributions of others moved me forward at warp speed compared to going it alone.

Though I ended up getting none of the specific shoes or pedals recommended by others, Forum feedback helped me make informed selections for my needs. The shoes...I had to get what could be made to fit, but with some key suggested features. The pedals...I was able to quickly determine some sort of larger platform would be helpful in gaining stability and distributing stress while pedaling. Taking a second look at current dedicated road shoes/cleats, I made the right choice in going the MTB route for touring shoes/pedals.

I came out pretty well overall, perhaps as nicely the first time as if I'd worked my way through several purchases on my own-- and at pretty reasonable prices (~USD$145 complete). Reviews indicate the Garneau shoes and Shimano SLX PD-M530 pedals will likely enjoy long and happy lives, aided by the pedal service tool that arrived in today's mail.

Yes, I can see how the pedals can be "tuned" differentially for a given need, and your experience and feedback here helps, Ian. Thanks!

Best,

Dan. (...who finds contrasting heat and cold most helpful to the sore knees at present, and can't wait for t'morrow to try the shoes and pedals again)

[NZPeterG]

Hi Dan,
1st off be careful of backing off your cleat tension bolts almost all the way because they some times fall out when riding with your Shimano PD-M530 pedals! use a spot of Loctite 243 will help stop this.

Note: This is only when tension is back off almost all the way!


2nd If I new of your Knee's I would have said to only use Speedplay Frog SPD pedals!
I'm about to order a pair from the UK ( the UK?)
Why? Because Speedplay USA have the wholesaler for New Zealand in Australia   Why do some People in the USA think at New Zealand is part of Australia? Maybe because we know the USA is part of Canada! (It's Canada Right?)

So Speedplay Frog's (cool name   ) do not have a spring loaded tension to hold the Cleat to the Pedal but a great design. the pedals are cool too! you just have to remove a small screw and use a STD bike grease gun to lube and clean out the old dirty grease! Like in old WTB hub's and pedals.

A good tip when leaning with clipless pedals is to clip in and out when riding on some soft grass  


Pete  

[Danneaux]

Hi Pete!

Thanks for the kind tip re: screw retention on the slack pedal adjusters on the Shimano PD-M30s. The very same thought occurred to me this morning. As soon as I get the chance to test-ride them tomorrow (since it is almost midnight, make that later today), I'll Loctite 'em right up. I don't want to lose those little screws while riding!

Pete, I'm really intrigued by the Speedplay Frogs, and remember them well from several years ago. Unfortunately -- and for reasons unknown to me -- they were unavailable at either of the local REI or Performance stores, where I could have tried them on-trial. When I asked the clerks what happened to them, they were at a loss to explain as well.

I do very much like the cleat, the size of the platform, the simple design...so many things about them including the easy servicing you mentioned and their needle-and-cartridge bearing system (like my old Superbe Pro quill pedals that have lasted so well over the decades). Looking tonight, I have already found I can choose delivery to the local Performance store for free pickup and free return if necessary. The opportunity to have much longer-lived, easily serviceable bearings and knee-friendly no-spring tension would easily tip the scales in their favor, even now.

Like in old WTB hub's and pedals.

Yeah! I have WTB-licensed MTB versions of the Superbe Pro pedals on the tandem, fitted with road-quill cages. Service is a breeze when needed.  

Thanks for the personal endorsement of these pedals, Pete!

Why do some People in the USA think at New Zealand is part of Australia?

Dunno, except for poor geography skills and the chance to gouge dearly on shipping prices to Southern Hemisphere locations -- when not "restricted" from shipping at all due to manufacturer demands. REI's shipping costs to Australia are high enough to cause nosebleeds. It really makes little sense, and it is often the same flat rate no matter the item's size, price, or weight.

A good tip when leaning with clipless pedals is to clip in and out when riding on some soft grass

So far, so good on the initial go, but I've had to wait a couple days to try again. Anacin and hot-cold packs make me think I might try again tomorrow morning if the knees continue to feel better. If they still get sore with the spring tension slacked-off, then I'll *definitely* order the Speedplays even if I have to eBay the PD-M530s.

Just a couple questions...
• I understand Speedplay recommend lubing the cleats frequently using a dry lube. This makes the pedal sound relatively high-maintenance for extended touring. What do you think?
• Reports seem a bit mixed about cleat-clogging. How have you found them in various conditions?
• There have been some reports of early cleat wear. Have you found the cleats to be durable?

Thanks again!

Best,

Dan.

[NZPeterG]

Just a couple questions...
• I understand Speedplay recommend lubing the cleats after several rides. I'm a bit concerned that might cause sand pickup in the desert conditions where I sometimes ride.
• Reports seem a bit mixed about cleat-clogging. How have you found them in various conditions?
• There have been some reports of early cleat wear. Have you found the cleats to be durable?

Hi Dan,
I have Speedplay Zero (road pedals) but will be ordering Frog's next pay day. (from the UK because shipping to is far less then the USA)
But as with the Zero's you lube with dry lube so all is OK with sand and Dirt.
Clogging of cleat is no way its a clean open design (friend has only had good thinks to say about them in Mud and dirt). The only SPD's I know of that clog up badly is Shimano SPD's Sorry this is why I have only used Time ATAC and how Look Quartz pedals for the last 15th years. I Mountain Bike in load's off Mud in the U.K, Europe, and New Zealand. Frogs clean on clipping in, have been know for year's as one of the best.
Wear? I know the MK2 cleats were not as good as the MK1 and MK3 for wear. the Zero's are far better at lasting then Look or Shimano road pedals.

If you like you can wait until next year and then I can gave you a full report  

Pete  

[Danneaux]

A good tip when learning with clipless pedals is to clip in and out when riding on some soft grass

Now, Pete...a talented writer like our Andre would label this "foreshadowing", a little hint to the reader of things to come.

All was going right as rain with the *riding* of the clipless pedals till they drew first blood a few minutes ago. And in front of Family, who had gathered to see this Latest Marvel of Cycling Technology. At least they had the kindness and sensitivity to avoid applauding, but were plenty worried at this unscheduled addition to the featured marquee.

So, what's the backstory?

After this morning's aspirin-ice-heat-icing session, the knees felt well enough to have another go. Click in, head off, not a care in the world. Little birds sang sweetly and the world was at peace. Then, oh! A curbstone. That's about a 6.5in/16.5cm drop, and I encounter something like that about every three meters on a logging road. No larrikin, I figured I could ease gently down and see how it worked if I needed to make a quick dab.

Well, I needed to make a dab alright, and how it worked was I ran out of air before the street -- and curbstone-corner -- rose up and slapped me a good one, mostly on the upper side-calf^® and outside knee knob™.

Ow.

Even bigger Ow: It also managed to tear a very small hole in my handlebar tape and gouged through just the powdercoat on one of the rack struts for a couple centimeters. Now, that really hurt. I have spare tape in reserve, but it is pointless to apply till I get this pedal thing figured out. The rack strut's finish has been seamlessly, invisibly repaired thanks to several quick, light strokes with a framebuilder's finishing file and the application of gloss-matched Semi-Flat Black Krylon. You really cannot see it even from 10cm away, which is precisely why I went for Stealth Matte Black for the entire frame, though thankfully only the rack strut put it to the test. Throwing oneself beneath the falling bike does save paint.

The net lesson of this little exercise is yes, it is the spring-release tension making my knees sore. The cleats are angled and placed appropriately, and I can pedal with no pain or problems a'tall. I actually like the clipless system pretty well and it looks as if it will work about equally to the Dettos/Superbes once it is sorted for my needs. The mishap happened 'cos I did my usual sorta-trackstand in easing down the curb to avoid undue shock to the wheels and bike and lost momentum, tipping to the very side I needed to kick my heel toward for release.  I "should" have unliclipped on that side in anticipation, but to maintain a realistic methodology, I stayed cleated to see what would happen. Among the conclusions worth noting: This little mishap likely would not have happened if I'd been pedaling on the platform side of the Forum-recommended Shimano PD-M324s, a lesson not altogether lost on me.

To continue the exercise to conclusion (and to a rallying cry of, "For Science!") I dusted myself off, wiped most of the blood, hopped back on, and did the job cleanly the second go-'round, getting free in plenty of time for a toe-dab if needed.

Since the cleats are on their lightest release tension and gnawing knee pain is still a problem (far worse than the curbstone abrasion, I can tell you), I am reverting to the Dettos and Superbe Pros till I can place an order with Performance for a pair of Speedplay Frogs to try initially and carefully so they won't get all marked-up. I called the local store, got the "y'know you'll get a full cash refund for a year if they don't work for you, right?" offer again, and confirmed they have none in stock to buy today. Instead, I can get a pair shipped there for free to pick up in 7-10 days -- once nationally-depleted stocks are replenished in a couple weeks. I'm placing my order as soon as I post this.

So, the saga continues with forward progress: The bike will look none the worse for wear once I replace the tape on one side, and the pedals still look like a promising means to save my Dettos/Superbes for the next decade or two worth of use on the other bikes.

Best,

Dan. (...who seems to bounce pretty well and thinks it could have been worse than a skinned knee and a tear in the HB tape the size of a pencil-top eraser)

[jags]

AH DAn what were you thinking as long as you were ok and no damage to bike then its all down to getting used to the clicking in and out of the pedals.you'll get there buddy fear not.
still i'de love to have been there to see the fall.

[Danneaux]

still i'de love to have been there to see the fall.

Bet I could have sold tickets! 

All the best,

Dan.

[jags]

  did the neighbours make an appearence

[Danneaux]

did the neighbours make an appearence

...Nooo, but their curtains wiggled a bit, so I know they caught it.  

"Oh, just Dan again, Henry, still obsessed with that darned bicycle-thing. Never you mind, he looks harmless" would pretty well cover it.

Best,

Dan. (...who really is bicycle-obsessed and largely harmless except when he sees someone mistreat an animal)

[jags]

  no harm done Dan that's the main thing.
chainreaction does those frog pedals but there pretty expensive 98 euro and cleats are extra .

[Danneaux]

chainreaction does those frog pedals but there pretty expensive 98 euro and cleats are extra

Yeah, jags, expensive here as well. USD$105 for the "Baby Bear" oxided cro-mo spindles, USD$135 for the "Mama Bear" ones with stainless spindles, and the topline "Papa Bear" models with rainbow-finish Ti spindles are USD$250; cleats included with each. From what I can see, Speedplay prohibits dealers from selling the pedals at prices below MSRP, so competition doesn't come into play.

I placed my backorder today for some stainless Speedplay Frogs; they're due in the 16Aug and I will receive them 7-10 days later.

Just returned from the store, where I re-purchased the Shimano multi-release cleats and have now fastened them to the PD-M530s. Playing with them in the livingroom and while holding onto the kitchen counter, these seem to release at lower tension heel-out, which helps the knee pain greatly. Even better, they release with a very small heel-in movement, which doesn't hurt at all and still clears both the crankarm and chainstay nicely. They didn't release vertically when I tried to see if they would.

The effect is like the same cleat tension was reduced by about half again compared to the original cleats that would only release with a heel-out movement. I also get the additional option to tip my heel in for knee-pain-free release. I'm hoping this will hold the fort or even solve the problem before the Speedplay Frogs arrive. We'll see.

Best,

Dan.

[Danneaux]

Hi All!

Some of you have contacted me asking how the Great SPD Experiment is progressing. There is great success following more trials! Here' s a summary:

SHOES

• The Garneaus's 3-strap design proved too painful to keep. The "anchor" ring holding the top strap was placed too high and caused the inside-top corner of the shoe's throat to bite into and bruise my instep, so I returned them. They also had a pretty slick nylon sole that offered little if any grip on polished concrete floors and none at all on a platform-backed SPD pedal I tried in the store.

• Performance had a far more suitable subtitute in the Shimano MO88 suggested by Fraser (it was unavailable during my first visit). Replacing the factory insole with a flat high-density neoprene Spenco version and an arched Spenco neoprene orthotic atop it made a workably narrow fit with a size 44. They are very comfortable to walk and ride in and despite being flexible enough at the toe for easy walking, they are stiff enough over the pedals. They have a metal ratchet mechanism for quick adjustments while riding and a really grippy rubber sole that clings nicely to any slick surface including pedal platforms. They look as if they will last a long time. They are warm in my current 96°F/35.5°C weather, but should work fine and I really like them.

PEDALS

• I initially tried the Shimano PD-M530, a very nice double-sided SPD with a wider cleat surround and decent bearings. Unfortunately, my knees can't tolerate the lateral heel-out release on even the minimum tension setting.

Shimano's SH-56 multi-release cleats helped greatly, allowing me to roll-lift my ankle to release, but the pedal spring was still too strong for my knees.

I tried the platform-backed Shimano M324s and Shimano A530 SPD Sport Road Pedals in the store, and found the SPD portion still had too much spring release tension to keep my knees happy, but the Shimano MO88 shoes did a much nicer job of gripping the platform side than did the Garneaus. I cancelled the backorder for the Speedplay Frogs 'cos I realized even with no spring tension, the direct heel-out release motion is killing my knees, and the Frogs release that way as well.

• I have now found the best pedals for my needs: Shimano's new T-series (Trekking) SPD pedals. Combined with their MO88 shoes, they're pure magic, though Shimano offer an entire line of T-specific commuter/touring shoes to go with the pedals. The lineup hasn't received much press and are hard to find on Shimano's site.

In October 2012, Shimano revised their trekking lineup and introduced two pedals for the trekking/commuter market, the PD-T400 (SLX grade bearings) and PD-T700 (XT grade bearings). Except for bearings, weight, and a slightly different resin platforms, they function identically. *Both* sides have SPD cleats *and* platforms. You can use either mode on either side as you wish. Engagement is instant, and release is effortless and so natural it requires no thought. Release requires almost no twist or effort, yet the pedals hold firm in all normal pedaling including full-power sprints, uphill climbs, and finishing sprints. I spent a good part of today testing them from dead starts on graveled 24% grades and had no problems staying clicked in till I needed to release, which was always instant.

The release angle has been revised from 13° to only 8.5°. Spring cleat engagement pressure is reduced 60% and release tension is reduced by 50%. With the springs dialed to the least tension, it feels lke the shoe cleat is magnetically attracted to the pedal -- and then held by magnets rather than a spring latch. I can pedal on them as platforms or sort of "wish" my way onto the cleat. I can't imagine an emergency situation where a person would be unable to unclip in time -- it just "happens" without thought or any special effort yet I never had an accidental release. If they did release accidentally, increased spring tension would address it. The platform remains available in any case. The supplied multi-release cleats really work as advertised on these pedals. The net result is less stress on my joints and less stress on the shoe uppers.

Though both the T400 and T700 have double platforms that support the entire width of the shoe, those platforms are best used with SPD shoes with recessed shoe cleats, as the pedal latch does protrude above the platform. They can be pedaled with street shoes, but it wouldn't be comfortable for long 'cos the pop-up cleat stands proud of the platform. If a resin platform broke, you'd be left with an ordinary SPD pedal with a somewhat larger surface area akin to the PD-M530, so things look good for long-term use in severe conditions.

In-depth T400 user review: http://www.bicycles.net.au/2013/03/shimano-click-r-commuter-cycling-pedals/
Woman's T400 user review with emphasis on the ease of release with the lesser leverage of smaller feet: http://totalwomenscycling.com/bikes-gear/shimano-clickr-pedals-review-2113/
Road.cc T400 user review: http://road.cc/content/review/69035-shimano-clickr-pedals-pd-t400
T400 User reviews at Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Shimano-PD-T400-CLICKR-Clipless-Pedals/dp/B008VQCWUQ
T400 available from SJS Cycles here: http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/shimano-pd-t400-clickr-pedals-prod29434/
T700 User reviews at Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Shimano-PD-T700-CLICKR-Clipless-Pedals/dp/B008VQCT0E

Shimano PD-T400 (SLX grade) assembly diagram:
http://www.paul-lange.de/support/shimano/explosionszeichnungen_archiv/PD//PD-T400_3458.pdf

Shimano PD-T700 (XT grade) assembly diagram:
http://www.paul-lange.de/support/shimano/explosionszeichnungen_archiv/PD//PD-T700_3459.pdf

To say I'm delighted doesn't begin to cover it. The MO88 shoes and T-series pedals are a sublime combination that just works flawlessly over and over again in really tough conditions and has yet to fail me on catch and release. It is as easy as my Detto/Superbe Pro combo in all important ways and wholly natural with really no learning curve. Unlike my old combo, I can walk easily and damage-free on the new shoes and now understand why people have gone clipless. What an ideal combination for the sketchy conditions I often find while loaded-touring in wild country!

Best,

Dan.

[NZPeterG]

Hi Dan,
Very good, I can only wish mean Km's of cycle Fun with your new Pedals and Shoes.

Pete 

[mickeg]

So, how many pairs of pedals do you now need to buy to outfit the rest of the fleet?  Or, will this combination remain a Nomad only combination?

[Danneaux]

I can only wish mean Km's of cycle Fun...

Thanks, Pete! Much appreciated!

So, how many pairs of pedals do you now need to buy to outfit the rest of the fleet?  Or, will this combination remain a Nomad only combination?

Hi Mickeg!

To outfit the rest of the bikes with clipless pedals would be just too costly, especially when I have still-usable shoes and pedals for them. I'm fortunate they're nearly all equipped with extremely long-lasting SunTour Superbe Pro pedals, and I have the current Dettos and three more pairs of the shoes new-in-box in reserve (got 'em when a mom 'n' pop bike shop in Texas closed in 1989 and paid only USD$20 apiece). With care and only limited walking, the lot should last the next 20 years or so. The nylon Pavarin cleats are no longer available, but I've extended their life with some homemade steel "wear bars" to keep 'em fresh at the pedal interface. They work okay for limited pavement walking, but gravel really eats them up.

The idea is to go clipless only on the Nomad, thus sparing the others. When riding the Nomad, I'm most likely to walk in mixed terrain -- small stores, public restroom facilities, putting up the tent, pushing into camp, etc.

I just recently replaced the Blackburn racks on my rando bike with Tubus Logo Evo and Tara versions that will accept my Ortlieb bags without swapping the sizing clips (which tend to fall out of changed often). That bike is also my "faster-lighter" tourer. If I wish, I can always trade pedals with the Nomad for the occasional lighter tour and so equip that bike at no extra cost.

Best,

Dan. (...who seems to have found a happy solution for all his bikes and riding)