Wool bibs, full wool bibs. No synthetics.

[No]

I don't like the idea of wearing plastic clothing to be honest. Doesn't make sense to me.

So, do any of you know of any company that makes wool bib shorts with NO synthetic parts to them? A blend of less than 20% synthetic might be acceptable, but I don't want some plastic fabric crotch like most wool shorts have.

(I'm pretty sure this is the wrong forum for this but I am not sure where to put it. Plus I've already put it here so it'd be a pain for me to move. Please move it if you have the tools and this is not the right place for it.)

[George Hetrick]

Have you looked at the Ibex bibs?

http://shop.ibex.com/Apparel/Mens-Ride/Arrivee-Bib

[Danneaux]

(I'm pretty sure this is the wrong forum for this but I am not sure where to put it. Plus I've already put it here so it'd be a pain for me to move. Please move it if you have the tools and this is not the right place for it.)

Hi No!

I think you placed your query pretty well. It is sort of a general technical question and doesn't quite qualify for the Muppets Board.

So, do any of you know of any company that makes wool bib shorts with NO synthetic parts to them? A blend of less than 20% synthetic might be acceptable, but I don't want some plastic fabric crotch like most wool shorts have.

I do! Right here: http://www.kucharikclothing.com/tights-100-merino-washable-wool-p-336.html?osCsid=n340bggffmvioec506dppc0ri0 This link takes you to the page for Kucharik's 100% all-wool tights. There is an option to get them with a bib and another option to get them with an all-leather chamois, so *no* synthetics or plastics of any kind.

That said, I ordered a pair of these wool tights (no bib, no chamois, optional double-wool bottom for durability) earlier this year and sent them back, which wasn't inexpensive (two-way postage plus a restocking fee, so yes, I was really sure they wouldn't work for me). The problem? I found the seams just too big and "ropy" to be comfortable and the zippers in the legs didn't work very freely at all. The wool was much thinner than I had thought it would be...about as thin as the extremely worn 35 year-old Giordana tights I was hoping to replace. It was soft to the touch, however, and looked as if it would be non-scratchy in use. The gentleman named "John" who answers email queries is John Kucharik himself, so you do have a means to contact the maker directly.

Kuchariks are the only option I can think of if you wish for "no plastic" cycling clothing. Hope this helps.

Best,

Dan.

[No]

Oh! This is good. Thanks!

What is real leather chamois like anyway?

Do they ever have sales?

And where is that double layer option?

Also, a lot of high end wool is thin. Every wool balaclava I've had has been thin. Still work for the most part though. Double em up if you need more or use a scarf. Only really need more thickness if it's REALLY cold or cold and very windy.

[George Hetrick]

What is real leather chamois like anyway?

Literally (and figuratively) a pain in the butt.

After washing, chamois dries hard, so you have you carefully massage the entire chamois (and possibly apply a softener). I am much happier with the modern synthetics (I like the ultrasuede, which looks much like an old chamois, but remains supple after washing).

[Danneaux]

Agreed, George; "real" leather chamois has maintenance and use issues the newer synthetics don't. It requires care in washing and drying else it can crack, it needs that "chamois butter" (something to keep it supple and comfortable/pliable) massage, and bacterial buildup can become problematic on longer tours when they cannot be laundered regularly.

While I still have all my chamois-lined shorts, I wear those with a synthetic liner; that says something.

Do they ever have sales?

Occasionally, but generally...no, not on woolies. Their sale page is here: http://www.kucharikclothing.com/specials.php It generally includes things like team overruns, returns, and excess stock.

And where is that double layer option?

No, none is listed. I asked specifically in an email query this last March, and John Kucharik told me the double-seat option is USD$20 more. I placed my order with him by telephone so I could be sure to specify my needs. They don't have a double-knee option; I asked. A shame, as that would have been nice for shielding the knees from cold winds and would have extended their temperature range downward. John K told me the wool they use will not fade and is color-fast with less than 1% shrinkage. Kucharik's wool is a flat weave, not ribbed or corded.

Figure on paying about USD$142 for the tights with zippered legs and including bib, chamois and the double wool bottom + shipping by USPS. They will fit a little more ehm, "slack" than lycra tights, so expect a fit a bit like a pair of long-john underwear...not exactly baggy, but not skin-tight, either.

Best,

Dan.

[No]

Have you looked at the Ibex bibs?

http://shop.ibex.com/Apparel/Mens-Ride/Arrivee-Bib

Nope

"Seat and inside legs: 87% Polyester, 13% Spandex"

[No]

They will fit a little more ehm, "slack" than lycra tights, so expect a fit a bit like a pair of long-john underwear...not exactly baggy, but not skin-tight, either.

Best,

Dan.

And they don't hold the coconuts to keep the from moving about all over?

What exactly is flat weave?

[Danneaux]

And they don't hold the coconuts to keep the from moving about all over?

Except in the most general of ways...no.

What exactly is flat weave?

Imagine a knit t-shirt...that's a flat weave. The Kucharik tights are like that, but a bit heavier than a t-shirt. "Flat weave" generally means there is no texture or ribbing in the weave. "Plain weave" is another term for it.

Best,

Dan.

[Danneaux]

Some additional thoughts, No...

It sounds as if you're planning to wear the all-wool tights and nothing else below, since you asked about the chamois.

You probably have an idea in mind already, but if you're still trying to decide, I would suggest getting the tights with the double-wool bottom and no chamoi, so you can wear them over cycling shorts, then peel them off done them as effort and temperatures vary during your rides. The shorts will have a chamois of their own, and it can be unpleasant riding on two of them -- too thick atop the saddle, and the pair can end up making a sort of wad of material that is uncomfortable to sit on.

As for bibs, I've found they can complicate "breaks naturelle", when you need to relieve yourself. Since most bibs are worn under jerseys (and jackets, if it is cold enough for bib-tights), all that has to come off to make operations possible -- cold, drafty, and extra loose clothing to deal with. For this reason, I find I don't wear my bib-tights as often as I'd thought, and instead use regular tights over shorts so things can come part more readily when needed for elimination.

One additional alternative is all-wool leg warmers. If your shorts are already wool and you just need extra warmth on the legs, this can be a really nice way to go, as the "sleeves" (legs) can be folded or rolled to fit in jersey pockets. I sometimes also use all-wool arm warmers with both my wool and synthetic jerseys for the same reasons and they really help. They can also store compactly in a rear jersey pocket.

It is astonishing how warm one can be for so little weight and bulk. I've been perfectly happy to ride in 15-25°F/-9 to-4°C weather if I'm working hard, wearing only a heavy wool jersey with wool arm warmers, wool shorts with wool leg warmers or wool tights, an uncoated wind jacket, and a pair of thin lycra tights over the bottoms to break the wind. A gilet (wind-vest) can warm the chest as effectively as a bib. Yes, more pieces to keep track of, but much more versatility in about the same overall bulk.

Kucharik has all-wool arm and leg warmers as well. Mine are Sergal, as I recall.

Just a few thoughts on a slightly different approach in the hope it might help.

Here is a nifty little tool to get some ideas on what garments are appropriate for a given weather state when cycling:
http://www.bicycling.com/whattowear?cm_mmc=Facebook-_-Bicycling-_-Content-Story-_-what-to-wear

Best,

Dan.

[No]

Did you get the plain ones or the multi paneled ones?

Oh, and I won't be buying tights. Just the shorts.

[Danneaux]

Did you get the plain ones or the multi paneled ones?

Oh, and I won't be buying tights. Just the shorts.

No, I've never owned or seen Kucharik shorts, so I can't offer an opinion there. My wool shorts were much older versions I got from Arni Nashbar when his firm was still called "Bike Nashbar", and from Alan Goldsmith's Bikecology mail-order business based in Santa Monica, California in ~1977-78. That I still have them and they're in good shape says something about the design, craftsmanship and materials. They still fit, too!

In general, the tradeoff is: More panels means a better fit at the cost of increased numbers of seams.

Extremely careful design, cutting, and shaping of two-panel cycling bottoms (shorts, tights) *can* result in as good a fit as multi-panel, but it is very tough to do and takes a skilled expert to pull off. A local woman made my heavyweight (8.5oz/yd) lycra cycling tights in her basement business, and she managed to make the legs with just a single vertical seam (and they had self-stirrups, too!). She then joined the two legs with a continuous vertical seam at the trunk. They still fit as if they'd been painted on, yet give freely under stress so they don't pinch and never wrinkle over my cycling shorts or even when worn over my wool tights over cycling shorts. A pretty remarkable bit of design and sewing.

For wool shorts...I think I'd favor plain ones over multi-panel. It really depends on the fabric and construction, though. I think John Kucharik could give you the pros and cons of each.

Best,

Dan.

[No]

*confused*

"That said, I ordered a pair of these wool tights (no bib, no chamois, optional double-wool bottom for durability) earlier this year and sent them back, which wasn't inexpensive (two-way postage plus a restocking fee, so yes, I was really sure they wouldn't work for me). The problem? I found the seams just too big and "ropy" to be comfortable and the zippers in the legs didn't work very freely at all. The wool was much thinner than I had thought it would be...about as thin as the extremely worn 35 year-old Giordana tights I was hoping to replace. It was soft to the touch, however, and looked as if it would be non-scratchy in use. The gentleman named "John" who answers email queries is John Kucharik himself, so you do have a means to contact the maker directly.'

[Danneaux]

Oh no, No...the limitations of the written word!  This would be so easy if speaking face-to-face! 

That said, I ordered a pair of these wool tights (no bib, no chamois, optional double-wool bottom for durability) earlier this year and sent them back, which wasn't inexpensive (two-way postage plus a restocking fee, so yes, I was really sure they wouldn't work for me).

This means Kuchariks are the only all-wool cycling garments I know of currently. They are considered by many to be high-quality, and I agree. Despite this endorsement, the tights did not work for me and I had to return them unused. Even though I needed to make a return because they didn't meet my expectations, I feel I can still recommend them in good heart provided I explain why they didn't work for me. Everyone is different, and they would likely work well for someone else. Kucharik has been in business a very long time and has many happy and satisfied customers.

I only ever ordered one item from Kucharik...the wool tights with the double-wool bottom and no optional chamois or bib. I returned the tights because -- while they were very nice -- they didn't meet my own expectations/needs. I really wanted them to work but they did not, so I paid to return them, which proved to be a little expensive (the cost included postage to me, return postage, and a restocking fee, just as clearly described in Kucharik's policies, which I read before placing my order).

I have never ordered or seen their wool shorts, so I can't comment on them or recommend a specific construction or style except in general terms.

I just realized I have several Kucharik lycra jerseys I purchased used from resale shops. They have proven to be well-made and of high quality. In my opinion, the Kucharik clothing I own or have tried looks a little more hand-crafted than some of the factory-produced items you see coming out of the Far East. This is not necessarily good or bad, but it has distinguished their products for me as a bit "different" than most commercially-produced cycling clothing on the market.

I hope this helps.

Best,

Dan.

[No]

Ah, I was thinking shorts while you were talking tights. Buying tights and shorts is just too expensive, so I'll be going for just shorts.