Author Topic: Rohloff - What's YOUR Opinion ?  (Read 217049 times)

Mike Ayling

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Re: Rohloff - What's YOUR Opinion ?
« Reply #195 on: January 28, 2025, 08:55:35 PM »
Martinf, I have the exbox and was thinking of that when I posted.

Mike Ayling

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Re: Rohloff - What's YOUR Opinion ?
« Reply #196 on: January 28, 2025, 08:58:00 PM »
Now for something slightly off thread.

It is frequently mentioned that the Rohloff "likes" a slack chain.
Does this also apply to a beltdrive?

Andre Jute

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Re: Rohloff - What's YOUR Opinion ?
« Reply #197 on: January 29, 2025, 02:49:12 AM »
It is frequently mentioned that the Rohloff "likes" a slack chain.
Does this also apply to a beltdrive?

No.

But more important than the mere fact that the Rohloff "likes" (heh-heh) a slack chain and the belt drive demands a tight belt, is the fact that on the Rohloff the play in the chain is acceptable within pretty wide limits compared to a belt transmission which is circumscribed to narrow limits.

That makes the Rohloff, in my opinion pretty obviously, more user-friendly both in installation and in removal and refitting.

I'm decidedly unenthusiastic about the prospect of trying to refit a Gates belt beside a road after mending a flat.

martinf

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Re: Rohloff - What's YOUR Opinion ?
« Reply #198 on: January 29, 2025, 08:17:00 AM »
I'm decidedly unenthusiastic about the prospect of trying to refit a Gates belt beside a road after mending a flat.

I don't think I will bother getting a belt drive non-electric bike. Traditional chain combined with a Chainglider is a good enough compromise for me.

I reckona  belt drive is probably a good option on a mid-drive electric bike where lots of power goes through the transmission. There are special chains designed to cope with that, but they don't seem to be fitted on the low and mid range electric bikes I have seen.

So to minimise punctures and therefore reduce the need for unscheduled rear wheel removal I think belt drive should be combined with a puncture resistant tyre such as the Schwalbe Marathon Plus, which I already fit to the rear wheels of my two visitor bikes. I reckon the higher rolling resistance of this type of tyre doesn't matter so much with electric assistance.

I have recently sourced two second-hand electric bikes for the nature reserve where I do voluntary work. These will complement the 3 refurbished non-electric bikes I renovated last year. The idea is to make the combination of bike plus trailer easier and therefore reduce the use of the reserve's two motor vehicles, perhaps to the extent of only keeping one of them.

The two bikes I found have a Bafang mid-motor setup and derailleur gears, so the chain and sprockets probably won't last very long in the conditions for which they will be used. I'll decide whether I need to change the type of transmission after a few months of use.

Rohloff won't be an option, the range isn't needed and it costs too much. My favourite option for a utility bike is the Nexus 8 Premium, but although this hub is fitted to some mid-motor bikes it isn't designed to take the torque. I've bought a Nexus 5-speed hub gear designed for mid-motor E-bikes, and I have nearly finished building up an old mountain bike frame to test it in unassisted use.

The two other options I've considered are the Enviolo hubs, of which I have no experience, or to simply keep the derailleur transmission and replace the chain and sprockets regularly.

The advantages of going to hub gears for these two bikes would be lower maintenance and the possibility of using a stronger chain that should last longer, unfortunately it won't be possible to fit a Chainglider.

PH

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Re: Rohloff - What's YOUR Opinion ?
« Reply #199 on: January 29, 2025, 10:10:27 AM »
It is frequently mentioned that the Rohloff "likes" a slack chain.
Does this also apply to a beltdrive?

No.

But more important than the mere fact that the Rohloff "likes" (heh-heh) a slack chain and the belt drive demands a tight belt, is the fact that on the Rohloff the play in the chain is acceptable within pretty wide limits compared to a belt transmission which is circumscribed to narrow limits.
I have no belt drive experience, I am curious, though it's unlikely I'll act on that, the numbers just don't stack up for me.
Alee Denham OTOH has a huge amount of experience and has written a 100,000km review.
https://www.cyclingabout.com/belt-drive-best-bicycle-drivetrain/

In that he suggests the stiffer the frame the less belt tension is required, experimenting on his own Koga he's reduced it to the tension more associated with chains and believes this to have reduced the friction. 
His touring is pretty extreme by my standards, so comparing his experience with my own isn't like with like.  He's happy to get 30,000 km from a belt claiming this is three or four times more than he gets from a chain.  I don't doubt that, but I get at least 20,000 km from a chain and I'm not sure that I'd get 60 - 80,000 from a belt.  Without knowing that, it's hard to judge if it would ever be economically viable.

PH

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Re: Rohloff - What's YOUR Opinion ?
« Reply #200 on: January 29, 2025, 10:37:09 AM »
on Thorn bikes removal of the wheel from the frame is easy peasy compared to the faff with other IGH brands.
How much of that is the frame and how much the hub?
I've had a few IGH's, SA, Shimano (4,7 and 8spd), SRAM 7, and of course my collection of Rohloffs.  I entirely agree that the Rohloff is easiest, though IMO none of them are hard and there's more variation between dropouts than IGH's.  For example, an Alfine 8 disc hub on a Thorn Mercury frame was easier than a Rohloff on a Surly Ogre frame and any IGH in a frame that requires a sprung tensioner is likely to be a little more awkward than one that doesn't. 
I can, nearly always, remove and refit an IGH wheel without getting oil on my hands, something I rarely accomplish with a derailleur bike.

WorldTourer

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Re: Rohloff - What's YOUR Opinion ?
« Reply #201 on: January 29, 2025, 12:07:10 PM »
I'm decidedly unenthusiastic about the prospect of trying to refit a Gates belt beside a road after mending a flat.

I did this several times last summer in Central Asia (I had to ride Aktau–Samarkand with a tire that had a hole in the sidewall and was prone to occasional punctures). It's not hard at all, at least not on my Nomad Mk3 frame. By pulling the wheel up and towards the middle of the frame, the belt becomes slack enough to then safely remove the belt from the rear cog. Then you just repeat the process in reverse for putting the wheel back. You don't have to faff with the eccentric bottom bracket every time, which was a misconception I had before I used this system for myself.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2025, 12:09:32 PM by WorldTourer »

Andre Jute

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Re: Rohloff - What's YOUR Opinion ?
« Reply #202 on: January 29, 2025, 06:44:32 PM »
I've bought a Nexus 5-speed hub gear designed for mid-motor E-bikes, and I have nearly finished building up an old mountain bike frame to test it in unassisted use.

I'm interested in this. Please follow up when you know more. Thanks.

PS. While fully aware that the Marathon Plus is a brilliant tyre -- I said so when I was younger and had a harder bum -- I think that today all the other types in Schwalbe's Marathon sub-brand ride better and are, in my use on clean tarmac at least, either equivalent or only fractionally behind the Plus in puncture resistance. Big Apples Rule.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2025, 06:53:51 PM by Andre Jute »

Andre Jute

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Re: Rohloff - What's YOUR Opinion ?
« Reply #203 on: January 29, 2025, 07:28:22 PM »
He's happy to get 30,000 km from a belt claiming this is three or four times more than he gets from a chain.  I don't doubt that, but I get at least 20,000 km from a chain and I'm not sure that I'd get 60 - 80,000 from a belt.  Without knowing that, it's hard to judge if it would ever be economically viable.

That's a valid point. Not every cyclist has a butterfly touch and a hummingbird cadence. So we don't all start from the same base of comparison.

But the Gates Drive is a crossover from well-known automobile cambelt practice, where 60K kilometers is a widely known recommended replacement regime, presumably with a large built-in reserve because failure would be so expensive.

In your case, getting 20K per chain implies that you're quite light on chains. So I would hazard a guess that you might get closer to 80K per belt than to 60K. Maybe even better than 80K if your conditions are genuinely less extreme than the adventurer's. (Who knows, maybe there's acid in the urban rain that would fall on your drive belt.)

Presuming something quite difficult, viz that you manage somehow to make a decent cover for the drive belt to make the comparison like for like with the automobile cam belt, which is enclosed to keep out dirt but does not run in an oil bath, the next question would be whether the belt materials have a natural end of life. After all, a belt failure for a cyclist would not be as catastrophical and expensive as the motorist's wrecked engine. So maybe you can run the belt past even a 100K or for your lifetime: out on the edge of possibility it's all speculative. 
« Last Edit: January 29, 2025, 10:01:24 PM by Andre Jute »

martinf

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Re: Rohloff - What's YOUR Opinion ?
« Reply #204 on: January 29, 2025, 08:35:49 PM »
I'm interested in this. Please follow up when you know more. Thanks.

It won't be for a while.

The bike should be ready for service in mid-February and to form a reasonable opinion on the Nexus 5 I will need to ride it for at least 500 kms, preferably about 1000 kms. I plan to use it as a temporary replacement for my old 650B Sturmey-Archer S5/2 five-speed utility bike while the latter gets a much needed thorough overhaul.

I had the internal out, it seems very similar to the Nexus 8 Premium. I didn't risk dismantling further, so I don't know if it uses gear pinions with needle bearings like the Nexus 8 Premium.

One difference is that the sprockets are different. Nexus 8 has the traditional 3 spline driver. The Nexus Inter 5E SG-C7000 has a smaller inside diameter, but with 6 splines, perhaps to help withstand higher torque. I did once manage to wear out the 3 splines on a traditional sprocket on an S5/2 hub before wearing out the teeth.

I haven't found a reliable source for the recommended maximum torque for the Inter 5E. Shimano's publicity says it can take a much higher torque when shifting than their other hub gears, which is a good thing when used by riders not used to easing off when changing hub gear ratios. Max torque values I have seen for Shimano 8-speeds are 50 nm, which seems to me too low for even an entry-level Bafang mid motor. I have seen 130 nm quoted for the Rohloff. I assume the Inter 5E is in between the two.

The obvious difference compared to Shimano 8 speeds is the smaller overall gear range of 263%, with regular but rather large 27% gaps between the gears. This makes it less suitable for a non-assisted bike, but seems to make sense for an E-bike.


I think that today all the other types in Schwalbe's Marathon sub-brand ride better and are, in my use on clean tarmac at least, either equivalent or only fractionally behind the Plus in puncture resistance. Big Apples Rule.

In my experience, the great majority of other tyres (not just Schwalbe and not just their Marathon sub-brand) are more comfortable and more efficient than Marathon Plus when comparing similar diameters and widths designed for the same type of use (i.e. don't compare off road knobblies or spiked winter tyres with "touring" tyres)

I found 700x28 Marathon Plus particularly uncomfortable, the comfort hit is much less noticeable with 584 and 559 in the wide 50 mm width. 

The lower efficiency is not a particular concern with the visitor bikes, these are on a an island approximately 8x3 kms, so don't get used for long distance rides. My opinion (I might be wrong) is that it would matter even less on an electrically assisted bike, which will anyway have 5-6 kg extra for the motor and battery. 

As far as puncture resistance goes, I can't remember ever having a puncture with Marathon Plus in about 18,000 kms of use (family and visitors), whereas  I do get the occasional puncture with the other tyres in Schwalbe's Marathon sub-brand.

For my own use, a puncture every few thousand kms is a price worth paying for the efficiency and comfort gains of a less well protected tyre.
For a visitor bike, or a bike used by several people on a professional basis, I reckon reliability is more important than efficiency.
« Last Edit: Today at 07:05:17 PM by martinf »

Tiberius

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Re: Rohloff - What's YOUR Opinion ?
« Reply #205 on: January 30, 2025, 09:22:25 AM »
I'm decidedly unenthusiastic about the prospect of trying to refit a Gates belt beside a road after mending a flat.


It's not hard at all, at least not on my Nomad Mk3 frame.

Much the same on my Pinion/belt drive bike. Thru-axel out and drop the wheel, belt just hooks off then really simple to re hook and re fit. I've never had much difficulty removing/re fitting the wheel on chain drive bikes but I definitely prefer working with the belt, it's just less fiddly and cleaner than a chain. A completely silent drive train is a bonus.

Andre Jute

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Re: Rohloff - What's YOUR Opinion ?
« Reply #206 on: January 31, 2025, 04:02:36 AM »
Max torque values I have seen for Shimano 8-speeds are 50 nm, which seems to me too low for even an entry-level Bafang mid motor. I have seen 130 nm quoted for the Rohloff.


At https://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=15247.0 I explain why, as a long user of Bafang motors, I concur.