Author Topic: Best Bicycle for Long Distance ?  (Read 19347 times)

Andre Jute

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Re: Best Bicycle for Long Distance ?
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2012, 10:56:12 PM »
See, Jags, you guys who grew up as roadies are conditioned to think of a "proper" bike as one having drop handlebars and derailleurs. The position is even worse in America, where the Peugeot 10-speed craze of the 1970s fixed a certain type of bicycle, a lowest common denominator of racing bike, in the cycling gestalt as the ne plus ultra, and created, among other deleterious effects, the entire mindset of commuters trying to race along as fast as cars, a game that could have only one loser; it damned bicycling in the States forever to being a minority niche -- even before you added the American tendency even in their hobbies and sports to adversarial politics which now vitriolically divides the "vehicular" from the "facilities" cyclists. But for people coming fresh to bicycling, derailleurs make no sense; they're an unnatural invention of the devil, one of the worst ways in which the cycling community's focus on racing distorts bicycles to be actively hostile to new riders. On any logical analysis derailleurs make no sense. Economically derailleurs make no sense. The only sense derailleurs make is that the bicycling establishment hangs on to them to the grim death, and that's self-referential, not a reasoned preference. Bicycling must be the only hobby where "efficiency" is a euphemism for both "irrational sentiment" and "wishful thinking" (ever notice how angry roadies become at the simple, straightforward question, "What are you training for?").

But I'm an outsider. I came to cycling only 1992 when I gave up the car for my health. For me the bicycle is a strictly engineering and ergonomic and aesthetic question, and I'm anyway a professional intellectual, worse, a critic, so I view the received wisdom of the cycling community with a severely jaundiced eye. So much of it is simply stupid, and perpetrated by manufacturers either for commercial reasons or under the wretched influence of the UCI, that a blunt British designer like Andy Blance can seem refreshing, even though he says nothing startling, nothing but the most straightforward logic of designing a bike outward from it's intended service.

Andre Jute

peter jenkins

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Re: Best Bicycle for Long Distance ?
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2012, 03:16:31 AM »
On the other hand, when I decided to take up cycling in in my mid thirties, I found the simplicity and transparency of derailleur gearing almost refreshing compared to the 3 speed hubs that we used in my distant youth. And I have yet to wear out a derailleur cycling around 10,000 KM per year, although I recently needed to replace a part in my Centaur shifter. (Campag wears in rather than wearing out)

Different strokes for different folks, I suppose.

Cheers,

pj

Andre Jute

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Re: Best Bicycle for Long Distance ?
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2012, 04:06:18 AM »
As you say, Peter, horses for courses. You might explain "the simplicity and transparency of derailleur gearing" though, let's say by comparison with a Rohloff gearbox where you turn a rotary control to give you sequential, equal gearing steps.

Andre Jute

JWestland

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Re: Best Bicycle for Long Distance ?
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2012, 09:34:04 AM »
Ah, I do see the point of the derailleur == racer boy == racing in traffic == special clothing, helmet etc. (racer boys)
VS
hub gear == roadster == carrying food, passengers, work stuff == walking on bike == normal clothing. (cycling for all)

There's now commuters by Giant, Charge etc with Alfine hub gears they are finally returning in the UK.

Pedal to the metal! Wind, rain, hills, braking power permitting ;)

jags

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Re: Best Bicycle for Long Distance ?
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2012, 12:23:22 PM »
but andre  deraileur or hub there both operated by a lenght of wire both work fine can't complain about that.i 've always used either campag or dura ace mechs never have either one let me down over thousants on miles of cycling a quick wash and lube and there as good as new,and they dont cost the earth to replace  unlike a rohloff hub have to sell one of the kids to buy one. ;)

Andre Jute

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Re: Best Bicycle for Long Distance ?
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2012, 09:29:45 PM »
A straight swap of a Rohloff HGB for one of your good-looking, well-mannered kids sounds like a good deal, Jags.                                                                                       

I'm not really talking about the cable connection. The people who are put off biking by derailleurs probably think electricity runs in that cable. The problem is that they're definitely put off by derailleurs, and those who aren't put off by derailleurs think cycling is more dangerous than it really is. Those two facts betwwen them absolutely bollox any and all cycling advocacy. If you then add government disinterest and incompetence...

Thanks for the giggle, Jawine. I love my helmet, which I wear with my everyday street clothes.

Andre jute

Danneaux

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Re: Best Bicycle for Long Distance ?
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2012, 09:37:55 PM »
Quote
A straight swap of a Rohloff HGB for one of your good-looking, well-mannered kids sounds like a good deal, Jags.
They're immensely talented and artistic, Andre...might have to toss in a Hebie Chainglider and a SON dynohub to seal the deal.

All the best,

Dan.

peter jenkins

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Re: Best Bicycle for Long Distance ?
« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2012, 01:12:10 PM »
Hi again Andre,

By "simpilicity and transparency", I mean that you can see the whole shooting match and how it works. When I was a youngster (I'm a 1951 model) derailleur bikes were virtually unkown in my neck of the woods, so when I came back to cycling in the 1980's I was smitten by the way a derailleur system operates. It's all there to see, and it really is relatively simple, not a mysterious (to me, anyway) arrangement of cogs and pawls all meshing away inside a hub. I don't see having to operate 2 sets of controls for front and rear instead of just 1 rotary control as a problem, but I suppose it's second nature. Perhaps if I rode a hub geared bike for a month or two I'd notice the difference when I reverted to a derailleur version.

I still appreciate the simplicity of the thing and I have experienced very little trouble over the last 30 years. Very occasional adjustment is the extent of it but I have to concede it costs more these days to replace a casette than individual cogs. I think Jags is on the money: don't buy cheap stuff and you're set for a long and enjoyable relationship with your derailleurs.

As for the "racer boy" image alluded to by Jawine, I didn't spend much time down on the drops riding my Club Tour on LEJOG. And my Moulton TSR30 doesn't fit that image either.

Which is not to say that I would never by a hub geared bicycle at some future time, just that I think derailleurs still have a lot going for them.

Cheers,

pj

energyman

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Re: Best Bicycle for Long Distance ?
« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2012, 01:56:21 PM »
Best bike for long distance is called a train !

jags

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Re: Best Bicycle for Long Distance ?
« Reply #24 on: October 06, 2012, 04:36:49 PM »
Best bike for long distance is called a train !

classic ;D ;D ;D

Danneaux

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Re: Best Bicycle for Long Distance ?
« Reply #25 on: October 06, 2012, 04:47:31 PM »
Quote
Which is not to say that I would never by a hub geared bicycle at some future time, just that I think derailleurs still have a lot going for them.

I agree, Peter; I still have a fleet of bicycles happily using derailleurs -- and freewheels -- that are friction-shifted and date from the late 1970s through the 1980s. Their thick unramped, unpinned alu chainrings seemingly last forever, and I wouldn't think of converting them to greater modernity if they can be made to go on as they are.

Carrying it further, I believe modern-day indexed shifting has simplified derailleur use (shifting) to a point where it is about equal to a Rohloff for sheer ease...so long as we're talking rear shifting. The front shift still proves problematic for some (especially if friction-shifted), but on the whole, rear shifts are the same as on an IGH -- pause or ease momentarily (or don't, with modern mechs), yank the lever a click or two, and there you are; a nice, clean shift to the next gear. What a derailleur drivetrain cannot do is allow one to shift the entire range sequentially with a single control, or allow one direct access to the next higher or lower gear in the entire range without at least one double-shift. You have to watch out for the "naughty combinations" that result in cross-chaining and greatly increased friction and wear.

One area where derailleur drivetrains have slipped over time is in component lifespan. In current versions, the cheaper (steel) stuff can actually outlast the more expensive (alu) 'ringed versons. In the quest to make shifting ever easier and more convenient, to make chain pickup even faster when shifting under load, the teeth have been contoured to the point (sorry) where there is much less surface area. In an effort to increase gear range with crossover shifting layouts, more cogs have been added to the cassette, meaning the chains have also become narrower -- all while maintaining about the same number of usable gears, thanks to chainline issues.

What this has amounted to is faster drivetrain wear due to decreased contact surface area between meshing components. I'm a 1960 model rider, who thinks the apogee of derailleur drivetrains came with my half-step triple/7-speed cassettes and sort of trailed off from there -- at least, where component life is concerned.  An interesting take on this issue of diminishing returns wrt more/narrower cogs/chains/'rings on derailleur drivetrains can be found in an article by Dan Towle at R&E Cycles in Seattle: http://www.rodbikes.com/articles/web_articles/retrogrouch.html Look especially at the subheads labeled  "Durability" and "Increased Cost".  It is on this point where high-end modern derailleur systems that see heavy use are nearing the economic breakover point to being as costly over time as high-end IGH drivetrains like the Rohloff. Taking Dan T's argument to its logical extension, a high-mileage rider could expect to buy a dozen chains and cogsets each year with a drivetrain running a 10-speed cassette; 9- or even 8-speeds are more economical to operate, but harder to find repacement parts for.  The thrust of Dan T's argument is here:
Quote
Durability:
10-speed chains are very thin, as are the 10-speed cogs. This means that they don't last near as long as a thicker chain and cogs. In cases of heavy commuting or touring we've seen many customers who get about 700 to 800 miles out of their chain and cogs. For some of those customers, that's about 1 month of commuting. That's 12 chains and 12 cog sets per year. For a customer riding across the United States, that's 4 chains and 4 cog sets. When used on a tandem, the mileage decreases by about 30%. By contrast, these same customers would be getting 1,200 to 1,500 miles on a 9-speed chain and cog set. Does this mean that an 8-speed chain and cog set would be even more durable? Yes, but 8-speed shifters are not available anymore, so 9-speed shifters are the new durability choice.

Increased Cost:
A 9-speed chain sells for $30. A 9-speed cog set sells from $45 to $60. By contrast a 10-speed chain costs $70, and 10-speed cog sets are $100 and up. When you multiply the frequency of replacement by the cost of equipment, your maintenance costs are increased by 200%. A 200% increase in maintenance costs are not the direction that most of our commuting and loaded touring customers want to go. Some people have no problem with the increased costs or service. Rest assured we still build touring bikes with 10-speed shifting quite a bit. We just want to share why 9-speed shifters are standard on our touring bikes.

Interesting stuff, and a factor in my choosing a Rohloff for long-distance touring (and the fact that the expedition-grade Nomad Mk2 is only available mit Rohloff) going forward. It is simply going to have lower operating costs and longer component life in future, and these are huge features for me in a bicycle I expect to last for the next 20+ years of high-mileage use. It is...freeing to simply twist the dial shifter and go "up" or "down" to adjust effort or ease as desired. The Nomad is the first of my bikes never to have a gear chart, and I still catch myself looking back inside my right leg to check which gear I'm in, chuckling when reminded I don't have to!  On the other hand,  I still enjoy the fun and challenge of manual/friction shifting my now-vintage 5- and 6-cog derailleur bikes, just as I enjoy driving a car with a manual transmission -- there's a certain joy in accomplishment in employing the skills I've acquired and that adds to my riding pleasure rather than detracting from it. I'll keep my older derailleur bikes and drivetrains for as long as they last, but when they die?...Dunno what I'll do. At that point, the Rohloff-hubbed Nomad may become my only bike.

All the best,

Dan. (who loves bicycles, no matter the drivetrain...)
« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 06:33:01 AM by Danneaux »

jags

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Re: Best Bicycle for Long Distance ?
« Reply #26 on: October 06, 2012, 04:52:21 PM »
when i
 was much younger i dont believe i ever seen a hub geared bike except of course for the old black sit up and beg  bikes high nelly  ;) maybe i didn't look hard enough. but would i have bought one in my younger days emm i don't think so.
to me and all my roadie friends  campag and dura ace were the order of the day still are to be honest.
unless i win the lottery (i live in hope or dreamland) i would never afford a rohloff. so to me the derailleur is the dog's regardless of cost or politics.
maybe i'm missing the whole point  ;D ;D ;) but i would never use a hub like the  rohloff on a top end road bike look a bit silly not very  8)

energyman

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Re: Best Bicycle for Long Distance ?
« Reply #27 on: October 06, 2012, 05:01:23 PM »
OK, you get distracted as you approach a junction.  With a D-R gear you are in the wrong gear to set off, with a hub you aren't. QED !

Danneaux

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Re: Best Bicycle for Long Distance ?
« Reply #28 on: October 06, 2012, 05:22:37 PM »
Quote
i would never use a hub like the  rohloff on a top end road bike

I agree, jags...I think der mechs will continue for a good long time on high-end road and road-racing bicycles. They have tradition behind them driving the process (and sunk and amortized costs) and there is yet more refinement to be made with electric servo-actuation, a la Shimano's Di2. There is also a weight advantage (however slight) to derailleurs, and bike balance is better with the drivetrain components distributed between front and rear.  Cost-on-entry is less than a Rohloff as well, so even if maintenance costs proved to be higher, one can replace components one at a time as needed.

And, as Andre has mentioned, there are economies of scale that support the lower cost of derailleurs. He sees things a little differently than roadie-traditionalists like you and me, jags. His is a worthy and worthwhile perspective, and I readily admit he's right. The problem is, derailleurs did get established and adopted on a wide scale, and IGHs are having to claw their way back into the market against the relatively higher costs of production. One thing Andre did not address in his very well-written essay, but I think may be a factor...I think the costs of manufacture and assembly for a single IGH are likely higher than for any one derailleur-drivetrain component. Taken as a whole (triple crank, front and real mechs, freehub, cassette/cogset), they may be comparable, but people don't generally buy whole der drivetrains for maintenance...they repace individual components, and at present, those are fairly inexpensive because they are well-established in the manufacturing and supply chain.

Yep, I predict derailleurs will be around awhile on road bikes,though likely soon only in electro-servo-shifted versions on new bikes. I think the commuter and touring market will go more toward IGHs. Mountain bikes?  Hmm. Could go either way.

Best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 06:37:02 AM by Danneaux »

Andre Jute

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Re: Best Bicycle for Long Distance ?
« Reply #29 on: October 06, 2012, 06:28:32 PM »
Yep, I predict derailleurs will be around awhile on road bikes,though likely soon only in electro-servo-shifted versions on new bikes. I think the commuter and touring market will go more toward IGHs. Mountain bikes?  Hmm. Could go either way.

I've been hearing about the touring and commuter market exploding (outside the traditional utility cycling countries) ever since I started cycling, over twenty years ago. It's nonsense, wishful thinking (I too wish it were true!), and it's not going to happen. For one thing, a third to a half of humanity cannot wait to give up the bicycle, which they regard as the mark of poverty, for a small car. That fact alone makes Dan right, because in the West the commuter and touring bike was always there, all the groundwork laid, waiting for someone to pick it up, and Trek and Cannondale tried valiantly, and where did they get?

Look around you (unless you live in The Netherlands or South East Asis). Who are into commuting and touring bikes? The middle classes, comfortable people riding on expensive bikes. It's a niche market still, after all these years. It has no street cred to drive up unit numbers and bring down prices. The cheapest decent touring bike you can buy is around the Dawes price bracket, still not a cheap bike, well reputed, probably very good value, and the others around there too; but none of those mass makers make only touring bikes. Even a small manufacturer like Thorn, famous for its (upmarket but good value) touring bikes, has other strings to its bow. Just with the information available in this forum, we can already deduce a very great deal about the size of the touring/commuting bike market — and its likely future.

I think Dan will be right for a long time to come, possibly a generation or two. It's such a waste, all those expensive "racing" bikes people buy because they're fashionable, ride a couple of times, find monstrously uncomfortable and difficult to operate, and then park in their garages forever. Carbon just makes it worse by driving up average prices, and thus the cost of waste. (Carbon bikes make  an excellent example of fashion substituting for, and posing as, engineering knowledge, but that's a subject for another thread.)

Andre Jute

PS. I splashed coffee over my screen when I read your explanation of the "transparency of derailleurs", Peter. Thanks for the giggle.