Camp furnishings: Chairs, tables, and such

[Danneaux]

Hi All!

Danneaux's gone soft?
Not that I'm going soft, mind you (never!), but certain camping accessories now have greater appeal for me than before. For well over 30 years I used my shoulder blades, elbows, and heels to row my way into and out of my end-entry Gore-Tex bivy. It got a little old at times when my path took me through mud and wet grass in the rain or snow on the way to shelter and a sleeping bag. Now I have a side -entry tent and I just roll in and out. I feel like a sybarite. I used to sit on the same little square of blue foam I use to pad my rack beneath my rack-top load. Now, I've decided I need something better to sit on.

Softy!

What's out there? Camp-chair types
I've surveyed the camp-chair scene, vetting all entries for bike-touring suitability. There's a lot of good choices out there, but they fall into four general categories:

1) The three-legged stool.
2) The fold-up chair in various guises.
3) The sleeping pad converter.
4) The 90-degree chair-pad with webbing at the sides to hold the back upright. Some fold out to make a sleeping-pad substitute.

There is a Fifth category, the sling-strap chair, best typified by Nada Chair ("not-a-chair"): http://www.nadachair.com/ I have one of their S'port Backer models, which folds into its own backrest and then zips shut. It works as advertised and provides great back support. Unfortunately, it has several drawbacks:
a) It is heavy.
b) It takes awhile to deploy and store.
c) It has no bottom, depending on you to supply your own (OEM, bleacher seating, log, or the ground).
It hasn't worked for me as I'd hoped for cycle-camping, so the search continued.

So, what does Danneaux want?
Of course, I wanted something...
1) Small and quick to pack and unpack.
2) Lightweight to carry.
3) Reasonably comfortable.
4) Deployable/stowable without a lot of fuss.
5) Sitting up off the ground.

This last requirement has become more important to me in recent years, as I do more desert touring. The little blue-foam rack-pad leaves me sitting at ground level and is hard to access, sitting as it does beneath the rack-top load. I find myself sitting on things that are hard on my lycra cycling shorts. Logs are sharp, as are goat-head thorns. Rocks aren't too comfortable after sitting on a saddle all day. Pavement can be blistering hot.

Wha'd Dan get?
So, I bought two examples, a 1) three-legged chair, and 2) a fold-up chair. The latter is better described as a "tent pole chair".

Stool
The stool I got is the REI Trail Stool: http://www.rei.com/product/765283/rei-trail-stool Unfolded, it is 15in/38cm tall x 13in/33cm x 13in/33cm across the top. Folded, it is 4in/10cm x 22in/56cm. Seating height is 15in/38cm, weighs 14oz/454g on my scale; my neighbor proved it will support 225lbs/102kg with no problem. It is a nice little stool, with flared foot-caps to prevent sinking, and added strength from a webbing wrap around the base that locks the stool closed for transport. It has a shoulder strap for carrying (no case on this year's model), and is the perfect height for most things, including filching stuff out of the panniers when Sherpa is upright on his Click-Stand. Regularly USD$22.50, I got mine for $15 on sale. A steal at that price. It is the same length as my rack-top dry sack, and stows neatly and readily accessible under the same Arno straps I use to secure my rack-top load, making it quickly available for roadside lunch stops and such. I chose green/grey to better blend in when I am stealth camping. Perfectly useful, except...

It has no back to lean against. The seat bears an uncanny resemblance to a bicycle saddle after sitting on the latter for 16+ hours. It is a surprisingly long reach down to the stove's throttle or pot when cooking. I find myself leaning elbows-on-knees in the same position I spend all day when riding. It isn't the break I sought.

Wah.

Chair (or most of one!)
Then, there's the fold-up chair. I got an Alite Monarch Butterfly Chair ( http://www.rei.com/product/792007/alite-monarch-butterfly-chair , mfr's site here: http://www.alitedesigns.com/monarch-chair.html ), consisting of a reinforced nylon and mesh sling suspended from four tent poles secured in a central hub. It is a Click-Stand you can sit on. The chair has two legs (you supply the other two with your own extremities), and it balances and rocks on the ones supplied. It.is.cool. It is low. it is a real chair. It is also expensive at USD$70 (a $10 increase in the last year).

The Alite Monarch looks very much like the Alite Mantis ( http://www.rei.com/product/830542/alite-mantis-chair ...and... http://www.alitedesigns.com/mantis-chair.html ) or the Australian Helinox Chair One ( http://www.helinox.com.au/pages/helinox-chair-one.asp ) also marketed in the US by Big Agnes ( https://www.bigagnes.com/Products/Detail/Accessory/HelinoxChair ), but sits a little lower and lacks those models' four stubby legs. I think the Monarch will do better on soft soil with its two big foot-pads than the quad-leggers' tiny rubber tips, but time will tell.

The olive green is no longer available, so I chose black to better blend in when stealth camping. I liked the orange, but it would have shown up like a distress flag. After all, I chose the green tent and matte black bike to be as inconspicuous as possible in camp.

What the Monarch does have going for it is light weight at 19oz, and it packs really, really small at 4.5in/11.4cm x 13in/33cm. The seat itself is 22in/56cm high x 21.5in/55cm wide x 17in/43cm deep. You sit about 5in/13cm off the ground, so it is stable. The seat pocket is seamless (a balm for bike saddle-weary bottoms), and the back support is good. Examples do vary, however, so it pays to "test-sit" them in a store. Some were loose and almost hammock-like, while others were very taut and firm. One was sewn with a twist that had me spilling out the left side. The only problem I ran into is the back supports tend to move toward center when you're in the chair, and I found they pinched me below and rearward from the armpits when sitting in one particular position. This is a problem if you're slim-hipped and wide-shouldered. Folks built the other way (narrow up top, wide below) who tried them at the store were happy with the models that pinched me. People -- and apparently chairs -- vary.

The Monarch is low enough to tend a stove, and adjusts steplessly to accommodate many positions. Slide/lean forward in the seat pocket, and you weight your legs. Sit in the middle and you have neutral balance even with legs crossed semi-lotus position or sitting with ankle-on-knee. Lean back, and you have a recliner and can achieve the same zenlike state of balance you did as a second-grader in those old wooden school chairs, but without the risk of injury if you fall 'cos you're only a little ways from the ground and can catch yourself with an outstretched hand. There are a few caveats: If you're on a hill, place the chair so it faces downhill. The legs should be pretty level with each other laterally or the frame will twist to the downhill side. I'm guessing a person could break the chair if they did something dumb like "walking" it along the ground to a new location while seated. Otherwise, it does seem to answer my needs and packs small enough to fit in the top-cap of one rear Ortlieb BikePacker Plus rear pannier.

Trouble in Paradise...but hope springs anew
Only problem? Last night, I exchanged the one shown in the photo 'cos after using it for a half-hour to read the newspaper, it stretched-out till I was sitting on the alu tubes. I think the mesh side panels on that example were a bit too generous. The replacement, an older green display model, blends into the scenery even better. A few on the showroom floor had defects, including skewed covers that caused them to list and then to finally collapse to one side, so I've got to be a little lukewarm about it at this point. If it holds up, great! A full-on test while extended touring will tell the tale.

I'm toying with the idea of packing a Dollar Store half-size umbrella in a light color, perhaps spray-painted silver. I dream of sitting beside the bike roadside, dining on lunch in self-made shade and a small patch of coolness amidst 124F/51C temperatures. If I epoxied a 10-24 threaded insert to the handle, I could fasten it onto my rear rack using the Rowi camera clamp and tilt it as needed. Bliss! (at least till the wind blows it wrong-side out).

So, wha'd you get?
What chair or stool (if any) do you use while bike touring?

Best,

Dan.

[julk]

Dan,
I always take a foam garden kneeling pad, sits between the rear rack, pannier hooks and any rack top load - although I am looking at ways of reducing that load. Useful on site for kneeling and sitting, especially for visitors! It weighs 45 grams.

I also always take an Exped Downmat 7 with chairkit, I like this a lot - it is great to sit on a warm chair. I am reluctant to use it outside my tent, since I took up cycle camping in my retirement the weather had been appalling (last good summer was 2006 here in the Northern UK). The mat and chair kit weighs 1.64 Kilograms.

My last luxury is a folding 3 legged stool by Haglofs. Sadly they are no longer made. It is just the right height to sit on when stirring the food cooking in the Trangia. The base is reinforced by a cloth triangle which resists sinking into soft ground, mud and sand (it worked for a neighbour in the Sahara) and also into snow - not tried yet thanks. It can be leaned a bit so that your legs and it make a 3 point stable configuration. It weighs 308 grams.
Julian.

ps
The most comfortable low camping chair I ever used was by Lafuma. It had a steel frame so weighed too much for cycle camping. It held you just off the grass with your legs stretched out in front. The top of the back and the front of the seat were slung canvas, no bars to dig into you.

[Danneaux]

Hi Julian

Some fine choices there, with well-thought reasons for same.

The most comfortable low camping chair I ever used was by Lafuma. It had a steel frame so weighed too much for cycle camping. It held you just off the grass with your legs stretched out in front. The top of the back and the front of the seat were slung canvas, no bars to dig into you.

By any chance, was it this one? http://www.rei.com/product/830408/lafuma-micro-pop-up-chair

I tried that one yesterday and it was so comfortable I didn't want to get up and go home, but the store would have closed eventually. I really liked it for all the reasons you mentioned, but it was just too large for me to carry. The garden kneeling pad is a great idea, and the Exped Downmat-chair sounds like luxury itself -- heavenly on a cold evening!

My last luxury is a folding 3 legged stool by Haglofs. Sadly they are no longer made.

Is it a bit like the "WalkStool" ( http://www.walkstool.com/ )? It has collapsing legs and two positions; the lower creates a single pivot point that makes a stool with one or two of a person's knees providing the other leg(s). I was really impressed by the video on their site showing a few stools supporting the entire weight of a Volvo V50.

Best,

Dan.

[il padrone]

Current future entry for the 'gotta get one' list is the Helinox Chair One





I tried it on the Australia Day Weekend tour and it led to responses from all who sat in it as follows

"What ever is that?"

"A bit much on a bike ride really?"

"How much did you pay?!!"

"OK, I'll give it a try"

"Hmm, that is comfy"

"Ooh, that is really nice!!"

"You don't need this back for an hour or so do you?"

[bikepacker]

This was a camp stool review I wrote about 3 years ago for a newsletter. http://www.bikepacker.co.uk/stool%20review.htm

I have since been a convert to the Helinox chair, it is a fantastic piece of kit and I cannot recommend it too hightly.

[jags]

i have a three legged stool i bought from the states light very strong but not all that comfy 

now bikepackers stool is the bee's knees i tried it on our Irish tour and honestly i was very reluctant to give it back it was so comfy.
but i can't tell you how it packs or what it weighs or even how much it cost .

but yes a stool on tour must be one of the most important pieces of kit to take.

[Andre Jute]

I just took out my painting stool. It clearly came from the same factory as Dan's three-legged stool that folds through the hockey puck at the junction of the legs. Mine doesn't have the flat feet but it also has the carrying strap, and holds together with a velcro strap (boo!) around the top of the legs when closed. The material is strong enough polysomething, and the tubular legs are not limp; until my recent weight loss, to where I'm now only 7 pounds heavier than when I represented several countries in a variety of sports, I weighed 215 pounds, and I still scale in at 197 pounds, and the cloth and tubular legs don't complain. How long the hockey puck will last under that much mass is an unknown. €12.50 at Cork Art Supplies. The reason I have to take it out to be certain what it is, is that it lives in a box of surplus equipment. I sat on it twice. The first time I sat on it I fell over backwards. It could have been nasty, as my head came to within an inch of the metal side table to my desk. Once you have the knack of centering your wight over it, leaning slightly forward rather than backwards, it is relatively stable. But that is not how I prefer to sit on my bike, or on a stool. It is also not how a heart patient should sit. So, instead of living in my bike basket or my painting bag, the thing went into the surplus box.

I wasn't expecting a Herman Miller ergonomic chair (at my desk I sit on one of Miller's Mirra chairs and it is pretty good, but it probably weighs a hundred pounds), but that REI/CAS type of tripod chair is marginal for middle-aged gentlemen. It isn't actually rubbish, but for me it was a waste of money.

I now stand to paint if I arrive at a spot I want to paint by bike, and if on foot I sit on my shooting stick, but that's not a permanent solution to anything because, despite a central tubular section, all that cast and lathed aluminium is clearly intended to be carried in a Range Rover, not used as a walking stick when on foot for more than a few paces.

Andre Jute

[il padrone]

BTW, I didn't  mention but that Helinox chair is rated to 145kgs   It weighs 850g.

[Danneaux]

I sat on it twice. The first time I sat on it I fell over backwards. It could have been nasty, as my head came to within an inch of the metal side table to my desk. Once you have the knack of centering your wight over it, leaning slightly forward rather than backwards, it is relatively stable.

Andre,

I'm sorry you had a bad experience with your three-legged chair, but can understand how it happened. Sitting on any of these things is an acquired knack. After reading about your preferred seated posture, I think perhaps I should warn you away from the Helinox/Alite type of chairs as well. A few friends who tried mine are not used not used to such chairs, and there were a couple topple-sideways (not backwards) incidents, though fortunately no injuries 'cos it is so close to the ground -- the exact source of the problem in their opinion: too far down to catch themselves. They also had trouble getting up/out, but they weren't strong-legged cyclists like we all are.

I love it and have had no problems, so tastes vary. I found the quickest way into mine (remember, my Alite Monarch Butterfly has but two legs and rocks like a rocking chair if one wishes; Alite also make a four-legger) is to grab it and cup it 'round my bottom on the way down as I'm in the act of sitting. I find myself sitting in the chair just as its legs touch the ground. It is then a simple matter of settling back and relaxing. I seem to have become addicted to the rocking feature, but can also sit still with no effort and no strain to my achilles tendons. It is very stable, unlike the classroom chairs I balanced on two legs when in elementary school. The Alite two-legger is configured in such a way that it is extremely hard to tip over backwards 'cos a person's legs act as more than adequate ballast. If anything, one tends to tip forward.

REI have just introduced a hybrid version of this sort of chair; it is convertible from two legs to four, as desired: http://www.rei.com/product/829239/rei-flex-lite-chair It is also cheaper than the Alite version, at USD$69.50 compared to Alite's four-legged Mantis/Helinox copy at USD$120-$125 depending on color/finish. In contrast, REI currently have my two-legged Alite Monarch Butterfly on sale for USD$55: http://www.rei.com/product/792007/alite-monarch-butterfly-chair

I am rather broad-shouldered for my size, and find one possible drawback in a chair of this type can be the metal braces that support the backrest. I seem to be just fine with mine, but wider folk may not be, and complained the supports dug into their shoulderblades. Also, much heavier friends than I have reported the seat can sag after awhile to where their bottoms contact the support tubes. The problem seems to be more likely if one is skinny of bum rather than pear-bottomed. I've not experienced this on mine, but did on a couple I tried in the store.

Hope this helps, as not all brands/models are readily available in all countries, but the alternatives are astonishingly similar.

Forum members with an affinity for such sitting devices can proudly call ourselves...Chair-men [and women] of the Board.   <Cue groans>

Best,

Dan. (...who is now a confirmed chair-person while on-tour...chair, rather than stool)

[bikepacker]

Unless you are a complete fool it is almost impossible to to topple a Helinox chair. Perhaps you should rely on the experiences of those who have used them extensively before you make risky comments.

[StuntPilot]

Another vote for the Helinox Chair One. A fabulous (if expensive) chair. I don't mind paying top price for an item of quality that will last a lifetime. The alloy tubes are made by DAC (Dongah Aluminium Corporation in South-Korea) which is one of the best producers of quality alloy tubing. It assembles quickly and has a high build quality. I have not seen the Flex-Lite but that looks good too and a bit cheaper.

So, what does Danneaux want?
Of course, I wanted something...
1) Small and quick to pack and unpack.
2) Lightweight to carry.
3) Reasonably comfortable.
4) Deployable/stowable without a lot of fuss.
5) Sitting up off the ground.

Looks like the Helinox does what you want Dan. While there are smaller chairs/stools, the bulk I find is not too great on a touring bike. Relate that to the comfort and it is well worth carrying on tour. Very happy with mine!

[Andre Jute]

Unless you are a complete fool it is almost impossible to to topple a Helinox chair. Perhaps you should rely on the experiences of those who have used them extensively before you make risky comments.

I for one am delighted to take your word for it, Bikepacker, especially since you come recommended by a proper Irishman like Jags. But at £80 for a chair that I'll sit on once or twice a year for ten minutes, I will have to take your word for it, as I'm not spending that much to find out for myself.

Standing to make a quick watercolour sketch does me no harm, and if I want to sit, I can park the bike next to a convenient stump or gate and sit on the saddle with one foot on the stump or the gate, and the other on the pedal or the handlebars (which makes a convenient table of my thigh, though my painting kit is so highly developed for hit and run work that no table or easel is required. Very comfortable, my triple-sprung Brooks B73. And already paid for. Not to mention that on sale at SJS it was nearly 40% less than a Helinox chair.

Andre Jute

[bikepacker]

Obviously the economics of any purchase has to be related to possible usage. Camping at least 60 nights a year gives makes mine very economical. In fact if I were only camping for a few nights a year I would still get one, as it adds to my cycle camping experience.

[Danneaux]

Admin note:

Hi All,

Having received two reports related to a recent post by Bikepacker on this topic, now is a suitable time to remind all members of the Forum Guidelines, posted here: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=26.msg6285#msg6285

Among other things, the Guidelines state...

A topic/post will be edited or deleted if it contains:
• Obvious disregard for the interests of the community... anti community spirit.
• Defamatory statements that are not salvageable by editing the topic/post.
• Incitement to a flame war.

A topic/post will be locked if:
• It contains unacceptable behaviour or anti community spirit.
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And a final guideline...
• Above all else, use your common sense, be respectful and reasonable to people and companies.

My mother taught me at an early age diplomacy, tact, and politeness are the grease of human interaction, as is putting oneself in the place of another when speaking or writing; a wise concept that keeps things running smoothly and a hallmark of this Forum. Acting out may be allowed on other fora, but not here; I won't tolerate attempts to course a flame war on the Forum, however inadvertent those efforts might be.

So, let's get back to the merits of stools and chairs and such in this topic, and perhaps help others by kindly sharing our experiences so those contemplating a purchase can make informed choices.

Best,

Dan.
Thorn Cycling Forums Administrator

[bikepacker]

And perhaps you should remind members of this forum not to decry products based on hearsay when they have no experience of such.