Abus Amparo 4850 Frame Lock

[il padrone]

Like that cable lock by Abus.

So far I've been using an OnGuard armoured cable lock (a real tough looking brute of a lock), and I also have the OnGuard wire cable with looped ends that I can use.


But I might consider getting one to slot into the Abus.

[Danneaux]

Jim,

I'm wondering if the AXA Defender RL discussed and illustrated in this thread ( http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=1944.0 ) might possibly be just enough smaller to do the job for me. Jim? Pete? I see you both kindly provided the illustrations for that discussion in response to my questions at the time. I'll go back and print off a scaled-photo model to compare clearances with the Abus Amparo 4850 you have. The AXA does appear that little smidge more shallow in thickness and of course has a narrower opening and the actuation button has a lower profile.

By the way, I notice you each went with the Abus instead of the AXA. Was there a reason besides availability or cost? Did the Abus seem more secure to you? I spent a bit of time last evening looking at comparative tests. The AXA had earlier problems with easily compromised keyways, but that seems to have been resolved in current production. Price and security seem roughly comparable, and both brands have plug-in cables or chains available (which I would want).

Yes, the AXA Defender RL's 50mm minimal opening on the hub side is tight for tire clearance (my Duremes are 47mm inflated), so the tires would either just fit or I would/could reconcile myself to removing and replacing the rear wheel with the tire deflated. I don't have to remove it often I would have 16mm total clearance at the sidewall (63mm-47mm=16) or 8mm per side Not bad for road use, and a possible mud-scraper off. I have 12mm minimum fender clearance above the tires, and generally more. I still remember Pete's photo of the wet-red clay that required him to remove and carry the front fender to gain enough clearance for travel. Hopefully, that won't happen too often, though I was right at that point on my last desert crossing when the playa got wet.

With either lock brand, there are key-releasing and key-retaining versions. Pete, I know you went with the key-releasing type and it appears you have as well, Jim. May I ask what moved you in that direction? I have hear isolated reports of the key-retaining types occasionally losing their captive keys on rough roads. Also users cautioned it is easy to lose the loose key in one's pocket (a small carabiner might solve that problem). On the other hand, the releasing types meant people no longer had a ready visual reminder the lock was not secure. It seems most European insurance plans require a key-retaining lock for insurance validation/compensation, though perhaps that's only for proof the lock was secure at the time of a theft.

Thanks!

Best,

Dan.

[JimK]

I went with the Abus because of the wider opening. The CL mount only comes with the NKR option. I don't understand at all how the other mounts work!

BTW, I tried to lock the Abus without the key inserted and I couldn't get the knob to slide. I'd read one worry about NKR, that folks could just lock your bike, just to cause trouble. But that doesn't seem to work.

I have an AXA SL-7 on my Azor/Workcycle bike. I think it is the predecessor of the Defender. It's a nice lock, too! I hear that it is the one with the compromised locking. Oh, well. It'll be a rare thief in upstate New York who knows whatever trick is involved!

[Danneaux]

Hi All,

Guys, confirmed: A ring-lock isn't going to fit on Sherpa in any conventional location; there is too little clearance to mount even the seemingly thinner AXA Defender RL to a seatstay location due to the pump.

The other location atop the v-brakes via a booster-like mount won't clear the rear rack's forward mounting tangs. The photo-scaled model pictured below interferes though only paper-thin and set directly atop the brake mounting bolts (red arrows shows the interference). Raising the rack (possible on my Surly model) doesn't make enough difference to matter.

My idea to put the lock atop the chainstays won't work in practice. There isn't enough clearance to remove the key, and there is not enough room between the top of the lock and the bottom of the front derailleur with the chain on the smallest ring.

Happily, this leaves one location with no clearance problems -- with the lock mounted face-down below the chainstays. Trying it with the smaller AXA Defender RL cutout, everything fits as if made for it, and there is an added benefit in not being obvious* (nearly invisible if I got an all-black model available through some vendors). Lowest possible location for the weight, too, and no ground-clearance problems. It would even clear the lower 1.5l bottle cage and both crankarms. I'll explore this location further and see how practical it is. I'd hate for the lock to become a mud-catching shelf, but that's unlikley so long as it remains ahead of the fender. The sliding actuator is easily reachable from the right, and the key is freely accessible from the left. Combined with a decent set of locking skewers and a plug-in cable or chain, this might be the solution. I'll print a new model of the Abus so I can see if it will work as well.

Thoughts?

Best,

Dan. (dopeless hope fiend)

*An unnoticeable lock might invite a theft attempt, but it also ensures the thief will most likely be unprepared to deal with it and he'd have to be on his knees to pick it or break it. I also have the motion-sensing alarm. A plug-in cable or lock might be more vulnerable to ground-assisted bolt cutters, but that could be addressed by threading it through the wheel at a higher level on its way to a post or solid fixed object.

[JimK]

Clever Cycles up in Portland carries the AXA Defender so it might be practical to test the fit with the real thing before spending money!

[Danneaux]

...it might be practical to test the fit with the real thing before spending money!

Excellent idea, Jim, as 2-way shipping on one I'd have to return could be expensive. There's a well-stocked commuting shop here in Eugene as well; they might have it locally, which would be best of all worlds. The locks are a lot larger when life-size than they appear in the catalog pics. One side benefit of placing it below the chainstays is it would eliminate any possibility of chain-suck and...oh.

Oh!

Oh, no.

Drat.

Jim...the rear derailleur cable is there. It wasn't apparent from my position on the left side of the bike, but it's going to present a problem.

A cloud just passed over my usual sunny outlook...

Dan.

[JimK]

Ah, that's a pity, Dan. There are so many details that have to harmonize to make a system come together!

Maybe you have already outlined it here, but... what makes the frame lock attractive to you? I put one on the teenager's bike for the convenience factor. First of all, he'll have a hard time losing it! And it is so quick and easy. That plus the kickstand. Better to use the cable too, but if he is running late to class, it should just take like five seconds to get basic security.

I've thought about putting a frame lock on my Nomad, but I don't expect to be in any big hurry when locking it up and I always have some bags on the bike - so a U-lock works just as well.

The fact that frame locks are so uncommon in the USA certainly adds a bit of security. And a strong U-lock is a heavy item. Maybe you can snake through some tricky trade-off of weight vs security that way?

Actually, I wouldn't mind getting my lock out of my saddlebag - I keep thinking about a way to mount the lock on the frame someplace. It's like my click-stand - I am thinking of switching to my Leki trekking pole. If I could mount that to the frame somehow, and then use that to prop up the bike, maybe I could cut the time required from maybe 10 seconds down to 2 seconds. Or just mount the clickstand someplace on the frame instead of buried under all the junk in my handlebar bag. Whew! Ultra-light I am not!

[Danneaux]

Jim,

Apologies first off; I fear I've sent you on a fool's errand on my behalf. I surely appreciate your help and patience; thank you.

what makes the frame lock attractive to you?

A good question! It took me awhile to get there.

I think most of it stems from frustration with my current locking solutions, particularly when doing solo loaded touring. It would be so much easier if I had a partner; then one of us could watch the bikes. Alas, that isn't possible, so I currently carry a heavy Kryptonite u-lock and a small cable. The small cable secures the front wheel and usually the entire bike to some object. I am not fooling myself; the flimsy cable is the weak link in the system. The u-lock weighs just over a kilogram alone, so the weight is noticeable. I carry it on-edge crosswise atop the rear rack, between my tent and stuff sack. That makes it convenient enough to ensure I use it (don't have to dig for it in the bags, doesn't fill up my frame with a separate mount). Trouble is, even using the "Sheldon Method" (see: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/lock-strategy.html for the method broken, see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9fLtdZyX-A ), it is hard to get the bike with loaded bags close enough to a post or object to lock it properly with the U-lock, so that leaves me depending on the weak link of the weak little cable.

None of this is a problem when I am stealth camping in the wild. I do lock the bike when I am camped in my tent (y'never know, and I sleep more soundly as a result). The problem comes more when I am stopped in tiny towns and at rural stores to restock on food and water or eat in the odd restaurant. The bike is out of sight, which makes me nervous, 'cos there's always a good chance someone could rifle through the panniers and take the contents (HB bag goes with me). It has often occurred to me that all a thief would have to do is haul the bike behind the store and as far as I am concerned, it's gone -- Somewhere -- forever. Just that has happened to a number of tourists passing through Eugene. A couple years ago, someone stole a tandem and two singles (fully loaded) and stashed them behind the apartment building next to the Safeway store where they were parked. These tourists were in the store for 15 minutes, the area was heavily traveled, the bikes were visible and locked. It took two days for them to come to light, and by that time, most of the nicer pannier contents were gone including cameras and a laptop. They did get the bikes back, but their trip was derailed and altered in a significant way.  What floored me was the attitude of passersby interviewed on television. The common concensus was the riders should have expected it for not locking the bikes "securely enough". Too bad, so sad, whaddaya expect, pretty well sums up the attitude. <floored and dismayed; I live here with such people!>

I don't want to be one of those people (on either side of the incident).

If I go with a high-security option (say, a Kryptonite New York Legend 1590 Chain Lock), then I'll be hauling a total of 10.3lb/4.7kg. So much for ultralight.

A midway solution like an Abus Granite Bordo 6500 looks appealing, but when I sketch it out the measurements, the thing is huge. Heavy, too. Various people (and Andre, whose opinion on such things I greatly respect) have noted the thing can damage bike paint, and it hasn't fared consistently well in testing. Apparently, a combination of prying and chiseling sees it part in pretty short order. The rubberized cages have lids that fatigue and fail in pretty short order.

The ring-lock with a plug-in chain is (was) awfully appealing from a weight and convenience perspective, provided it is coupled with locking skewers and fasteners for the steerer cap (TTTPlug2) and front wheel (SON28) and perhaps the rear wheel (depending on lock location). In camp, a simple flick of the plunger, and I'd be set. In a rural or small town, the same, with addition of a plug-in tether. What really sold me on it was traveling through NL and BE with my Dutch friend, who had one. It was nice to see how quickly he got the job done compared to my u-lock. His ring-lock stored itself, too. Cool! He did a round-trip from Rotterdam to Santiago de Compostela and back last May/June and only carried the ring-lock. No problems, though I would have also carried the plug-in cable.

Part of my problem is deep-down I don't want to acknowledge the need for a lock, and if I do have to carry one, I want the world -- feather weight, immediate convenience, and maximum security. Reality says I can only choose one from that list, and I have to employ it every.single.time.I'm.parked. or risk loss.

Parking to go in and get a hamburger at the Corvallis Dairy Queen is a major operation (for those outside the US, Dairy Queen is a fast-food chain known for their array of hamburgers, fries, and a wide variety of ice-cream treats including ice-cream cakes. Really. Very popular at kids' birthdays, which may help explain childhood obesity in this country. For liability reasons, bikes are no longer allowed to use the drive-up window, which was an ideal solution in the past). There's no courtyard or such to put the bike, and once I've climbed the steps and skated across the tile floor in cycling shoes, there's no way I could get to the bike in time to stop a thief even if I could see it clearly.  Home of Oregon State University and halfway on my regular 108mi/174km training loop, Corvallis place has a massive problem with bike theft. To do a proper job of securing the bike, I've got to take off the rack pack, computer, pump and GPS and the nicer water bottles and Click-Stand (all are quick-strip items if left behind). Then, I've got to fish out the 5mm allen and unscrew the SON28 skewer and unhook the electrical connectors for The Plug2 and lights. The front rack gets padded with a Kleenex packet so it won't get concrete rash, and the front wheel is put next to the rear. The u-lock gets fastened high enough so it is harder to pop, and the contents juggled enough to fill the opening to prevent jacking it apart. Meanwhile, the fork and Plug2 are sitting there for the taking with just a 5mm allen key. It's a big hassle. Unless I eat inside, then this is all for the 7 minutes or so it takes me to order, and by the time I put everything back and walk to the park (not allowed to ride on the sidewalk, and no bike path on the cyclist-unfriendly street), the food is cold. Not worth it. Hence, the appeal of take-along rehydrated soup cooked on the meths stove from the Pocket Kitchen. I recently came out of the restaurant after ordering and found the bike in the next rack was missing its computer, bottle, and pump in that time and had slid well down the rack, leaving some paint behind.

This is the scenario when riding with just a rack-top pack. It is a real nail-biter for me when fully loaded, and limits where I decide to park when reprovisioning on-tour. I'll sometimes go to a firehouse and ask the crew if I can park and lock inside their garage. This is ideal if the grocery is nearby. Other times, if the grocery also incorporates a petrol station, I'll park there and buy the attendants coffee on my return.

So, a quicker, more convenient, but still-secure solution in such circumstances would be nice. That's what moved me toward a ring-lock and plug-in cable, augmented with the secure skewers and fasteners.

All the best,

Dan.

[JimK]

The convenience and unobtrusiveness of the frame locks is really hard to beat! But then again it is not such a flexible solution either. Anyway it was grand fun sharing how the lock works on our teenager's bike, so no need for any apology!

Here is another possibility for you:

http://www.kryptonitelock.com/Pages/ProductInformation.aspx?PNumber=999867

I got the 1518 cable which is already impressively thick. These things don't fold down to pocket size by any stretch. But 1.4 Kg isn't too horrible. Anyway, it's another interesting point in the security / weight / convenience / flexibility space.

[Danneaux]

Hi All!

I've never stopped thinking about how I might mount a ring-lock on Sherpa, and I think I may have found the solution to having both a ring-lock in the conventional location and my Zefal HPX4.

I've been looking at clearances, and it appears the pump will fit vertically behind and parallel to the seat tube, provided the base (head) of the pump seats in a Zefal Doohicki and the top is held by a Zefal nylon, endless-clamp pump peg. The Doohicki amounts to a right-angle plastic shelf that bolts to the chainstay bridge in place of the spacer Thorn used when installing my SKS fenders.

The Doohicki was developed in the late-1980s to allow placing a full-size frame-fit pump behind the seat tube of mountain bikes. They are long out of production, but I found one  in my parts bin and will see if it allows proper pump placement. If it does. there should be no impediment to mounting a ring-lock ahead of the seatstays and inside the rear triangle just as Jim and Pete have done.

I am thinking of the AXA Defender as well as the Abus 4850. They are nearly identical, but the AXA has a smaller entry (and slightly larger clearance by a mm or two at the tire end). My paper model just neatly passed the inflated Schwalbe 26x2.0 Dureme, and I often partially deflate the rear tire make installation/removal easier anyway, so this would allow a slightly wider tire to be used also. My thinking is the AXA's smaller opening might be that bit more resistant to prybar entry, and AXA also have a nifty alternative mounting method intended for ATB stays -- it amounts to a pair of vinyl-dipped cup hooks that engage a plastic spacer. It is far quicker and easier to install than the little windup metal strips AXA normally use, and allow the lock to be removed for service and reinstalled easily at a later date. The difference between the locks is almost academic, but I feel I should look at all options. Trelock are another well-regarded maker of ring-locks and I want to investigate their offerings also.

More updates as I progress.

Best,

Dan.

[Andre Jute]

For Jim K: You can discount talk about the insecurity of those Abus ringlocks. The trick of defeating them depends on having a component the availability of which is now strictly controlled in The Netherlands, and which was never available anywhere else. After my Australian friend Peter Allen alerted me to the possibility, I asked if I could have the component in Ireland, and the distributor said he would have to ask Holland; I told him that was what I wanted to know, and not to bother further as I would deal directly with the factory should the need ever arise; I also visited three locksmiths and inspected their stock and there's nothing that could be made to do the job. For practical purposes, the SL7/4850 style of lock is secure.

[JimK]

For practical purposes, the SL7/4850 style of lock is secure.

Thanks for that, Andre! We are planning to move to a college town, so I expect bike theft to be a bigger problem that where we are now. Plus it's a bit bigger town so I expect there will be more opportunity to put the Azor/Workcycles to use. Woodstock is so small that it's just about as easy to walk wherever.

[Danneaux]

Andre, Jim,

Sadly, guys, it is easier than you would think if it is one of those locks (pre-2007) with an uncorrected vulnerability. I have PM'd each of you with a relevant link to avoid publicizing the exploit. Unfortunately, the information is readily available to anyone who searches for it (and bike thieves do actively search the 'Net for exploits).

I had similar luck in my efforts on a friend's lock of this type and vintage. Both AXA (Assas) and ABUS locks shared the same vulnerability and it was discovered about the same time. ABUS offered a full refund/replacement for those affected, while AXA offered a 50% reduction on the price of a replacement.

Sigh.

Jim, if yours is one of these older locks, I would suggest changing it for a newer model, where this vulnerability has been addressed. Especially before moving to a college town. Azors are nice city bikes!

All the best,

Dan.

[JimK]

I bought my bike in March of 2006, so it certainly comes before the vulnerability was publicized. It doesn't look like the lock in the video you sent. But certainly a bit of searching shows that the lock is plenty vulnerable.

I have looked closely at this lock and still I have not figured out how it is mounted to the bike! Replacing it would be interesting!

Probably the most worrisome thing - my sister sent me a link to a New York City bikeshop that is selling bikes just like mine. Yeah, the more this style of bike becomes recognizable... the greater the danger!

[Danneaux]

Hi Jim,

Unfortunately, the AXA SL-7 is one of the locks with the known vulnerability and is also one of those most vulnerable to this exploit. Replacing it with, say, an AXA Defender RL would resolve the problem. The Defender is available in all-matte black, so would most closely match your present SL-7 for appearance. They're available for as little as USD$39.99 if you look online.

Your lock is most likely held on by bolting through it to two bottle cage-like braze-ons located on the forward part of your seatstays. As I recall, they are standard M5x.08 thread, and their purpose is the same as the plastic clips or whatever; to simply hold the lock in place, since it is located within the rear triangle and therefore itself secure against theft or removal if locked to the wheel. For a picture of the brazed-on mounts, see the chainstays pictured on the bicycle here: http://ronajustine.blogspot.com/2012/03/powdercoating-in-groningen.html

Many people think locks mounted like yours are not replaceable; this is untrue. The locks are designed to be replaced in the event the cylinder or the spring-return mechanism fail or in the event the owner wishes to upgrade at some point. The plastic cover removes like a clamshell, exposing the basic steel of the lock and the mounting bolts. See the diagram here: 
https://data.epo.org/publication-server/html-document?PN=EP1752366%20EP%201752366&iDocId=6442612

The plastic cover is for cosmetic rather than security purposes, and lends a finished, professional look to these OEM installations. It is baffling at first glance, but easy in retrospect after you've seen the diagram and performed the task, and I'm happy to offer suggestions if you'd like.

All the best,

Dan.