Drop 'bars & Rohloff: A dozen differ'nt ways

[il padrone]

Could you run the shifter on the front extension of the H-bar ?? Or is that curve intractable?

[NZPeterG]

Could you run the shifter on the front extension of the H-bar ?? Or is that curve intractable?

Not on the one your have in Photo! older H-Bars had no curve.
But look up the new Loop H-BarŪ it's designed to be run with a Rohloff Shifter, http://www.jonesbikes.com/h-bar.html

Pete
 

[il padrone]

Yes, I've seen them before and been tempted! But I do so like my bar-ends, especially for climbing and variation of hand position. The H-bars don't really give this hand angle and they make it impractical to fit bar-ends.

[JimK]

How much force is required for a Rohloff shift? Does the shifter require a palm-and-fingers grip, or could it be accomplished on a T-bar by "spinning" the grip with only the finger-tips?

Fingertip shifting doesn't work with my fingers and my standard Rohloff shifter. I can shift just fine with my thumb and index finger, but I have to get the top two segments of my index finger into the action and the full pad of my thumb. The standard way my shifter is mounted, I shift using a flex/extend action of my wrist. I think that gives more force that keeping the wrist joint fixed and rotating the whole forearm.

Amazing how all these design decisions interact with each other. I wonder if it could work to have the shifter mounted on the frame, like a downtube shifter, or even in a similar spot on the top tube.   I mounted a light similarly:

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/809124-light-at-bottom-of-head-tube

but this specific trick wouldn't be secure enough for a shifter. Maybe it will trigger a better idea?!
 

[jags]

Calling Dan just after dawning on me dan how will  you attach the gearshift on your new nomad
please tell me your not using straight bars 
your a drop man true and true 

or will we have to wait to see the new nomad build special.

[Danneaux]

Most likely, I will go the same route as Fred, as shown in his post here:
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=4049.msg20870#msg20870

I was thinking of putting the shifter on the end of the longer T-bar, but I am now thinking of a slightly different approach: Perhaps, put the Rohloff on the short T-bar just beneath the stem, then use the longer T-bar to mount my handlebar bag just above the headset, thus reducing the number of spacers needed in-between. Thr T-bars don't weigh much, and this would place the shifter nearly the same distance away from the brake hoods as it would be if mounted on a Hubbub adapter to the bar-end.

please tell me your not using straight bars

No, I'm not...

your a drop man true and true

Yes, I am.

Actually, I am still figuring out how best to do this, and have some ideas. <= A dangerous thing, Dan with Ideas. I am very open to suggestions, which is why the answers and approaches in this thread intrigue me so much. So much innovation, so many good ideas, and I am surely thankful for the responses regarding how much pressure/grip is required to make a shift. that will influence my approach to a degree.

All the best,

Dan.

[swc7916]

My shifter is on the bar end using hubub adapter, and I like it there, much better than the other options in my opinion, mainly because you can hold the shifter and steer easily at the same time, as your hand is out where you get good leverage on the bars, and also because if you are riding on the hoods you just let your hand naturally drop down a few inches and the shifter is right there. Inboard shifter positions such as on a t-bar or on the tops, seem less convenient to me and you have less steering control if your hand is in near the centreline of the bike while you change gear.

My experience exactly.  That's why I had mine moved.

[jags]

Would be hard to better Fred's set up Dan
so will you setting up the nomad exactle like the sherpa or are we in for a few surprises 

[Danneaux]

Hi jags,

Since I don't have the bike in-hand yet, some of the details in my plan are still a bit hazy even to me, but -- yes -- the new Nomad will look very much like Sherpa, which was "just right" for me. Thorn have generously offered to try and duplicate Sherpa's build as much as possible, so that will help greatly.

The bike will be matte black again, of course. I personally think the yellow is gorgeous and admire it greatly, but I often wild-camp, and it is important the bike blend in for that, rather than stand out as the yellow would. The black is also easier to touch-up invisibly over time, and will draw far less attention in my town, where it will reduce theft. It will also be "present" in many product shots for catalogs and such, adding atmosphere and a context, without taking the focus off the featured product. Bright Tonka yellow -- because it is so pretty -- would distract people from the main item being offered for sale. It is also possible I will occasionally be contractually obligated to cover the logos, and this would be easier if it is black (use a strip of matte black automotive windshield trim-tape). It will still be recognizable as a Thorn. There is an annual "lifestyle magazine" syndicated newspaper supplement with a sporting section for "middle-agers" (they don't mean me, of course!) that wants some cycle-camping pics as well. Long lead-time; it will probably be published about 18 months from now.

There are a number of things that will be missing, simply because the Rohloff drivetrain makes them redundant --
- No derailleurs, of course.
- No need for a chain-slap guard.
- No need for the N-gear JumpStop overshift protector.
- No triple chainrings/crank.
- No Campagnolo bar-end shifter covers 'cos there won't be any bar-ends to cover.
- No Deore "Shadow" series low-profile derailleur.

I will need a different (shorter) pump, and I am not sure the compact frame with its smaller triangle (more sloping top tube and designed to accommodate a sus fork) will accommodate all three of my 1.5l bottles. If it won't then I'll likely go with an alternate high-capacity cage or three like the Salsa Anything Cage (http://salsacycles.com/components/anything_cage/ ...and... http://salsacycles.com/culture/new_product_-_salsa_anything_cages/ ) and use bottles that are shorter but more squat for the same capacity. Bottlers of water here in the 'States have all decided to make their own bespoke bottles, so standardization has gone out the window. It makes the store-shelf water displays look all higgledy-piggledy.

Otherwise, nearly everything will transfer over, making it as familiar and as functional as what I'm used to. Things like the bottle opener, the Tout Terrain The Plug 2, the lighting, the Kool-Stop brake pad inserts, interrupter ('cross-top) brake levers, etc.

I'm about to write Andy and ask his opinion on the new Berthoud shifter vs. the traditional shifter atop a T-bar like Fred's setup, which I find really appealing and would like to adapt in a slightly different way. Stay tuned; I think it will work well.

And, yes, I have a couple tricks up my sleeve.

So, there you have it...Preview of Coming Attractions!

Keep those drop 'bar Rohloff ideas coming! All suggestions welcomed!

All the best,

Dan.

[triaesthete]

Hi All!

For the person who will be going the Rohloff route but has never ridden one, a question for those more experienced:

How much force is required for a Rohloff shift? Does the shifter require a palm-and-fingers grip, or could it be accomplished on a T-bar by "spinning" the grip with only the finger-tips? I've sometimes heard the eaction compared to turning a doorknob, but I've found doorknobs vary a lot in the force required.

Dan.

Dan think of it as a well oiled, ball bearing, solidly mounted German doorknob with a nice positive detente action, assuming cables are good.As you leave one detente with a little effort it's then easy and drops into the next. Nice! (I've just had a check to make sure).
For physics!
Ian

[Danneaux]

For physics!

For physics!  Yay!

Thanks for that, Ian. From everyone'scollective comments, I am building a mental picture of how the shifting will be; thanks!

I had imagined it might be more like a SRAM GripShift, though I know in that case, the indexing is in the shifter and not in the mech, unlike the Rohloff. This sounds much, much better...

a well oiled, ball bearing, solidly mounted German doorknob with a nice positive detente action, assuming cables are good

Ah....<contended sigh> Bliss!  I can just about see it...feel it. Man! This is exciting!

Thanks!

Best,

Dan.

[Andre Jute]

Actually, the Rohloff shift is the component that most obviously runs in. I found the shift quality the most objectionable thing on my new Rohloff, very disappointing for so much money. (I fear I upset some posters by describing it as "agricultural".) Yet now I don't notice it. The psychologically depressing sighing sound in gears 7 and 8 has quietened to below the level of general everyday perception, but by comparison the change in the shift is a magnitude bigger over the same distance (about 5,500km).

My shift isn't precise at all. I don't mean missed gears. I mean it doesn't have the jewel like precision of a BMW gearbox. Nor, if you read the manual carefully, is it intended to click with precision. On the contrary, it is supposed to have 2mm play, almost a full gear movement, at the control surface, and not in total but each way. Mine has quite a bit more than that. Be careful: I'm not saying it misses gears or anything like that. I'm just saying that you have to grow with that control and, as it becomes less stiff, learn to apply less force. I notice that, now, people who come new to my Rohloff box find it so soft-changing that when they begin they always change several gears involuntarily and have to learn to be gentle with it.

Dan's remark elsewhere about two Rohloff boxes, the new and the run-in, apply very much to the control.

Andre Jute

[Danneaux]

Dan's remark elsewhere about two Rohloff boxes, the new and the run-in, apply very much to the control.

Very helpful indeed, Andre, and very logical as well.

And perhaps for the best.

Back in the day, I ran my (friction, 'cos that's all there was) shifter controls very stiff, indeed. Shimano Dura-Ace, Campagnolo Nuovo Record, SunTour Superbe Pro...and then, I discovered SunTour's very soft yet accurate ratchet-clutch shifters, and my friction shifting went soft -- literally. It was no longer necessary to have the stiff, precise lever action I had previously equated with accuracy, 'cos the lever would now hold firm against derailleur spring tension thanks to the ratchet resisting the derailleur spring; the clutch was balanced to work with mech spring tension and actually aided upshifts 'cos I didn't have to overcome much lever friction.

I soon came to prefer the "softly-softly" shifting. It didn't seem or feel as precise...but it was; it got me the gear I needed and then held it. And all with less effort.

It sounds as if I might consider the well-worn Rohloff similarly. If -- at worst -- the shifter ends up imprecise in feel and wiggly -- but manages to find and hold-steady in gear (which it should, being it isn't spring-loaded, the indexing takes place in the hub, and it uses a push-pull single cable), well...that isn't so different philosophically from the idea of abandoning gear charts and such in favor of just twisting the knob one way or the other to get the gearing I need. It'll get me there, and directly, then stay there. If there is some wiggly-play centering on the numbers, well, so long as I can find them and it still works...all's still good functionally.

The "tactile aesthetics" may go off with age, but the functional result remains.

Thanks, Andre, for adding this data point wrt the shifter mechanism; most helpful to keep in mind.

Best,

Dan.

[Andre Jute]

I'm sure you know this and just misspoke, or I misunderstood you, Dan, but the Rohloff gear control is by two pull cables. There is no pushing against cables whatsoever. The principle is pull-pull.

I didn't mean to imply that the shift itself is mushy. You feel the gear click in, though you don't hear it. It's the control rather than the change that is very slightly loose in being able to turn further by at least two mm in a by-the-book Roholoff setup. And you don't actually turn it further, it's just irritating in the beginning when, as you imply, you still look at the numbers on the ring and you want to line them up precisely with the red dot. Paulson showed a photo the other day with the remnants of Tippex on the numeral 11 on the gear control; by that I knew his bike had done fewer miles than mine; I had Tippex on 11 and 7 but felt no need to replace it after it wore off. After a while you don't care about the number of the gear you're in, and don't look. If Herr Rohloff intended you to look, you may be certain he wouldn't have made the classic triangular control black on black.

Andre Jute

[Danneaux]

I understand, Andre; yours is a superb explanation and description. The pieces of the puzzle are getting filled in for me, thanks to the efforts of yourself and others.

So much would be answered with a simple test ride or even test-feel, but alas, no Rohloffs are within access by me. Your collective descriptions are the next-best thing.

As for the cable action, you're absolutely correct, Andre, and that's what I was thinking. The "push-pull" in my statement was in the physics sense; as the control turns, one cable must be under slightly more tension, therefore the other has less, so "push" in relative terms (like pushing on a string).  I was thinking aloud, but your term is the correct one.

Wonderful stuff, all, and very gratefully received by me.

All the best,

Dan.