Rohloff gear oil quntaties

[Andyb1]

I know that Rohloff have reduced the oil to 12.5ml at each change, but I was surprised to find this on the Thorn web site that says to use just 8ml!

[PH]

Where does that come from? The advice in the "Living with a Rohloff" booklet it refers to is to add 25ml, then after mixing remove 17ml, it results in the same 8ml (+ the 7ml that never leaves) but the oil in the hub will be cleaner and a higher proportion of hub oil to flushing oil.  I've been doing it this way for years, no issue.

[mickeg]

I recall seeing that several years ago.  I am sticking with the 15 ml that is in the Thorn Video. 

That said, I still own the older larger size 250 ml bottles.  If I had the newer half size bottles, I would drop that to 12.5ml.

On April 21, 2016, I wrote:

My target was 15ml, but the syringe moves rather jerky when you push it and I got 16ml in it.  I did not want to try to push the 1ml back into the bottle.  Perhaps it is the engineer training in me that caused me to be that precise in my posting here.

I have also seen 8ml, but my hub costs too much money for me to skrimp that much.  Thus, I aim for the 15ml number.  At these links do a word search to find the reference to 8ml.
http://www.sjscycles.com/thornpdf/ThornBikeOwnerManual2Web.pdf
http://www.sjscycles.com/thornpdf/thornlivingwitharohloff_lores.pdf

As I noted above, I bought the 250ml bottles a year ago, thus I have a big supply of oil and have no reason to scrimp.  Plus, there is no downside to use 15ml if only 8ml is necessary.  Thus, I plan to continue using 15ml.

I am not sure if I should start to try to only use 15ml of cleaning oil or if I should continue to use 25ml, but it will be a year before my next oil change so I have some time to think about it.

I am quoting myself from:
https://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=11786

[UKTony]

I recall seeing that several years ago.  I am sticking with the 15 ml that is in the Thorn Video. 

That said, I still own the older larger size 250 ml bottles.  If I had the newer half size bottles, I would drop that to 12.5ml.

Me too.
At that time (pre 2018, I reckon) it seemed to me that  Andy Blance was on a mission to reduce the amount of oil Rohloff owners needed to use presumably to help save us money and prevent concerns he heard about oil ‘leaks’. I think his recommendations initially went down from Rohloff’s 25ml to 15ml then he came up with 8ml with reservations as to noise. He said all had Rohloff’s blessing. By then I’d got quite confused (not difficult) so stuck to the video as George has.
What I don’t understand is where he got the figure of 7ml because as far as I can see Rohloff have always said ‘’up to 12.5ml’  sticks to the internals..

[Andre Jute]

I stand with George here. The Rohloff hub is too expensive to scrimp on service.

Those big syringes aren't precision instruments. It is virtually impossible to draw in a precise number of milliliters, and it is bad practice to overfill the syringe and then push some back into the canister. I don't know the name of the fellow at Rohloff who thought up 12.5ml but there's surely some space in there for the clumsy and the unlucky. So the 8ml, for those who can manage to hit it spot-on, might have some logic behind it, but I prefer the 12.5ml with whatever margin upside margin is in it.

So I'm not embarrassed to admit I normally hit 14ml relatively precisely, and intend carrying on with a service metric that has served my Rohloff well for c15 years.

[martinf]

If too much oil is used it will slowly seep out.

But I reckon that this is a good thing, unless it is excessive.

My 50 + years of experience with old Sturmey-Archer oil lubricated hubs (3-speed AW3 and then 5-speed S5/2) leads me to believe that slow outward oil seepage largely prevents any water entry.

Seepage might be more of an issue with disk brakes than with rim brakes - I reckon it might be more difficult to clean oil off the disk brake pads than with ordinary brake pads, but I have very little experience of disk brakes on bicycles. I only have one, on the rear wheel of my Rohloff-equipped Brompton, here my reason for using a disc is to keep the chain cleaner as rim brakes spray water and muck off the rim, this effect is worse with small wheels as everything is closer to the ground. Apart from the other Bromptons, all but one of the other family bikes have Chaingliders, so, for me, cantilever or V-brakes are quite sufficient on these.

But so far I haven't had any excessive seepage with either the old 25 ml method or the more recent 12.5 ml method. Rohloff seals seem to keep the oil inside the hub better than Sturmey-Archer hubs, so seepage is slow enough that an occasional wipe stops oil getting near brake surfaces.

[Andyb1]

PH - it is a copy of page 24 in the first link that mickeg has given.

It seems that there is a great tolerance in what volume of oil to add after flushing the hub, from the earlier recommended 25ml right down to 8ml!

[PH]

PH - it is a copy of page 24 in the first link that mickeg has given.

It seems that there is a great tolerance in what volume of oil to add after flushing the hub, from the earlier recommended 25ml right down to 8ml!

Thanks.  It's a bit odd that it then refers you to "Living with a Rohloff" for a more detailed explanation and that explanation is different! 

Best practice for oil changes.
Advice for temperatures above –10°C Mar 2019
Run the hub for at least 3 minutes in gears 3 or 5 and then drain out
as much oil as you can - there is often no excess oil that can be
drained out.
Add 25ml of rinsing oil, replace the drain plug and run the hub for at
least 3 minutes in gears 3 and 5, then drain out as much as you
can. Leaving to drain overnight is best, if you can.
Add 25ml of Oil of Rohloff, replace the drain plug and run the hub
for at least 3 minutes in gears 3 and 5, to thoroughly mix the 2 oils
and then drain out 18ml of oil and replace with a NEW drain plug.
You will now have around 14ml of oil in the hub, 7ml of which will
be adhering to the surfaces. The excess 7ml of it will leak out much
more slowly, as an oil mist.
You’ll have very little excess oil in the hub, when the next oil
change is performed - but your dropouts will not be as messy.

As mentioned before, I'd be as concerned about the quality as much as the quantity, adding 8ml makes it roughly a 50/50 mix with flushing oil.  Adding 25ml makes it roughly an 80/20 mix even if you then remove some. Plus it's acted as an additional flush. 

It seems that there is a great tolerance in what volume of oil to add after flushing the hub, from the earlier recommended 25ml right down to 8ml!

I think that's right, it's the flush and fresh oil that's important, as the "Living with a Rohloff" booklet says:

It should be noted that, even if you deliberately drained
all the oil out of the hub, there would still be sufficient
oil adhering to the internal parts to prevent any
damage, until the next oil change was due!

[mickeg]

...

As mentioned before, I'd be as concerned about the quality as much as the quantity, adding 8ml makes it roughly a 50/50 mix with flushing oil.  Adding 25ml makes it roughly an 80/20 mix even if you then remove some. Plus it's acted as an additional flush. 

It seems that there is a great tolerance in what volume of oil to add after flushing the hub, from the earlier recommended 25ml right down to 8ml!

I think that's right, it's the flush and fresh oil that's important, as the "Living with a Rohloff" booklet says:

It should be noted that, even if you deliberately drained
all the oil out of the hub, there would still be sufficient
oil adhering to the internal parts to prevent any
damage, until the next oil change was due!

I am not too concerned about the ratio of cleaning oil to lube oil.  If I recall correctly Rohloff suggests a 50/50 mix for very cold conditions to reduce viscosity.  They would not suggest that if the cleaning oil was not a good lubricant by itself.

I used to commute on 1960s and 1970s vintage Triumph motorcycles.  In fall I would drain out the 20W50 engine oil, replace with 10W40 for colder weather.  With 20W50, it was nearly impossible to kick start the engine in sub freezing temperatures, I needed thinner oil.  But in warm temperatures, the 20W50 was needed to increase viscosity for lubrication in critical areas. 

Older auto engines used different grades of oil for different temperature ranges, but nobody suggested it was ok to thin out a thick oil with kerosene, as the kerosene would not have good lubrication properties.  Since Rohloff felt that adding some cleaning oil to the lube oil to lower viscosity at lower temperatures, that must suggest that the cleaning oil has some good lubrication properties by itself.

Compared to a motorcycle engine capable of climbing hills at highway speeds, I am a pretty low wattage engine on a bicycle.  I am not going to worry too much about the wear on a Rohloff hub caused by my riding if the viscosity was off.

I agree with PH, it is the flush and adding fresh oil.  The flush is to purge out particulates that have accumulated and adding some fresh oil is to renew the lubrication properties. 

The base recommendations from Rohloff for frequency of oil changes was deemed adequate by Rohloff for their machine, I consider that good enough.

[Andyb1]

The current instructions on the Rohloff web site are basically:

- add 25ml flushing oil and ride bike 1km
- drain hub (gets rid of any small particles and water)
- add 12.5ml of new lubricating oil
This is different to the Thorn ‘living with Rohloff’ guidance that PH quoted.

As others have said, there will be a mix of flushing / lubricating oil in the hub as well as the new lubricating oil which means it is important to use Rohloff oils rather than any alternative.

[mickeg]

The current instructions on the Rohloff web site are basically:

- add 25ml flushing oil and ride bike 1km
- drain hub (gets rid of any small particles and water)
- add 12.5ml of new lubricating oil
This is different to the Thorn ‘living with Rohloff’ guidance that PH quoted.

As others have said, there will be a mix of flushing / lubricating oil in the hub as well as the new lubricating oil which means it is important to use Rohloff oils rather than any alternative.

I make sure that I use every gear when I ride it with the cleaning oil, most critical are gears 1 thru 7.  I have heard that gears 3 and 5 will be adequate, but I prefer to be thorough so I use all the gears.

[Andre Jute]

I make sure that I use every gear when I ride it with the cleaning oil, most critical are gears 1 thru 7.  I have heard that gears 3 and 5 will be adequate, but I prefer to be thorough so I use all the gears.

It's your hub gearbox, George, and you should do with it as you please.

However, for the benefit of newbies:

It's not just a rumor that with the cleaning oil in the box you should ride x distance in gears 3 and 5, it is a Rohloff instruction, with the reason given, that gears 3 and 5 bring both epicyclic trains into use and cleans all the gears.

It follows by the mathematical logic of sets that if you ride only the regulated x distance spread equally in all the gears, every gear will receive less cleaning oil and wiping action than if you followed Rohloff's rational instruction.

It's a pain riding that far in only those two low gears, so I just spin the rear wheel with the pedal in each of those two gears for half of the y minutes given in the manual, which is also permitted.

[John Saxby]

My 50 + years of experience with old Sturmey-Archer oil lubricated hubs (3-speed AW3 and then 5-speed S5/2) leads me to believe that slow outward oil seepage largely prevents any water entry.

Martin, that's a superb example of making a virtue out of necessity!  (My preferred way of expelling Bad Things from my life. )

Good on yer, mate.