Author Topic: In praise of riding low pressure tyres fast  (Read 91369 times)

macspud

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 761
Re: In praise of riding low pressure tyres fast
« Reply #135 on: September 29, 2025, 08:23:20 PM »
Here's a video of testing different tyre pressures
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7r8f3w89XeM

Andre Jute

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4203
Re: In praise of riding low pressure tyres fast
« Reply #136 on: September 30, 2025, 12:35:56 PM »
Here's a video of testing different tyre pressures
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7r8f3w89XeM

Brilliant find, Macspud. When I first came into cycling on the net, I was outrageously abused by clowns who claimed to be scientific cyclists for saying what the fellow in video now preaches as received wisdom. Back then only Sheldon and Jobst stood up for real science, which I'd brought with me from racing car development, as had Jobst Brandt.

The most interesting thing here, for me, after the rigorous test method, is the large input to the results that the presenter accords the rider, irregardless, as we used to say down under. An instance, which is a key origin point in this long-running thread, is that I ride 60mm tyres, at the time I started doing so considered by many cyclists as grotesquely wide, at pressures between 1.5 to 2.4 bar, which many considered grotesquely low ("Double the pressure and you shrink the tyre's contact patch, and get a more efficient bike!"), but which on my rough lanes curling down steep hills, gave me the roadholding and stability that made me so much faster on my touring bike than the local peloton on their road bikes riding on the highly pressured narrow tyres of received cycling wisdom. See, I knew something else, besides the scientific purity of pressure and tyre width in iterated, controlled tests: a comfortable driver/rider is less distracted, even less fearful, and therefore translates greater confidence into riding  faster. The fellow in the video admits as much where he talks about professional racers on cobbled stages after he hobbles away from the cobble test. Engineers don't like this sort of talk, and pure mathematicians visibly squirmed when I explained the art of statistical market research*, but in many fields of research there is a necessary element of art beside the purely mechanistic motions of exposing the inner working of whatever, useful throughout the process but (usually)most obviously seen in the design stage of the experiment (so that, to name only one possible error, you don't test the wrong hypothesis) and then again in the interpretation of the data (so that, inter alia, you don't mistake correlation for causation).

BTW, we should commend this presenter for describing the losses resulting from wrong tyre inflation in Watts, large numbers much easier to visualize comparatively than the numerically small efficiency loss which is always normalized to a percentage, and which therefore seems tiny. However, notice something? The efficiency losses between correctly and incorrectly inflated tyres are larger than those some cyclists obsess about between derailleur and Rohloff drive systems!

* They're more inclined to be open to the meaning when it is called "psychology" rather than "art", but it is actually art in the sense that all lateral thinking is art, even when it is about structuring Popperian research correctly.

Andyb1

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 217
Re: In praise of riding low pressure tyres fast
« Reply #137 on: October 14, 2025, 06:34:12 PM »
Andre,
Any thoughts on having a ‘traditional’ stiff walled Marathon Plus 1.75 on the back and a 2.00 Big Apple on the front to act as a shock absorber (a bit like a hardtail MTB)?

Andre Jute

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4203
Re: In praise of riding low pressure tyres fast
« Reply #138 on: October 15, 2025, 04:50:26 AM »
Any thoughts on having a ‘traditional’ stiff walled Marathon Plus 1.75 on the back and a 2.00 Big Apple on the front to act as a shock absorber (a bit like a hardtail MTB)?

Interesting thought. You can tailor the roadholding and handling of your bike via tyre parameter and operation choices for sure. In fact, those should be your initial attempts to gain control of the bike. Compare that normative case to what most cyclists do first: consider a softer saddle, a mechanically sprung saddle pin, mechanically sprung front and rear connections between the frame and the hubs. Actually, working through the tyre possibilities gives you the most bang for the buck.

I knew about all this from motor racing but it was reinforced for me when a Royal Dutch Gazelle I bought sight unseen turned up with a recent relatively strong cable disc brake at the front and an elderly design of hub brake at the back. This in fact gave me a sort of anti-skid braking, which I considered a safety measure as I'm a social rider, carrying on conversations, always distracted by whatever there is to see, therefore liable to slam the brakes on hard rather too often, which is in any event how I ride even when alone. The equivalent of this, and relevance to our discussion of basically sidewall stiffness/tyre pressure, is inflating the front tyre (of two otherwise identical tyres) less to give it more grip and thus better turn-in, or, if you prefer less understeer, while the harder rear tyre will slide more easily and thus add additional oversteer. That is, the bike had now been tuned away from its safest commuting or touring state towards a road competition state.

My next bike had the latest killer hub brakes front and rear; they left the best disc brakes for dead; I hated them because they were always trying to give me a faceplant, on or off, no nuance. In addition, there was nothing I could do to adjust their relative gripping strength, so that whatever retardation they decided upon was what was delivered to the contact patch of the two tyres. This bike also had computer-controlled adaptive suspension only in the front, which would soften the suspension at speed, and make it stiffer when the rider slowed down, so that the fork would go solid just when the brakes were reaching peak grip, resulting in a faceplant, or at the least an anti-social, embarrassing, dangerous uncontrolled stop. This bike was fitted, first with a workalike tyre that on inspection appeared to come out of the same mold in Indonesia as the Schwalbe Marathon Plus, so when those tyres got flat-spotted from too many spectacular slides, I fitted real Marathon Plus 37mm wide, which was a mistake. Those wretched tyres tried to kill my back. Eventually I under-inflated them, the front one to give some compression in the last stage of any hard stop, the rear one to get the roadholding at speed back to what it was (predictably consistent) before I started buggering around with what I could control -- the tyre pressures -- in order to correct the designer's errors, of which the worst, admittedly, was a saddle like a malicious wedgie (on a deluxe commuter!), which I threw off before I rode ten paces on it.

My next bike was designed from the ground up to ride on 60mm Big Apples, and I was in a position to specify the rest of it in detail, for instance the weakest (largest compression chamber) of the Magura rim hydraulics, which have been an absolutely brilliant choice for the particular bike and my riding style. Today I inflate front and rear the same, but perhaps lower than most cyclist who ride on similarly rough lanes would, but I tried various inflation regimes before returning to the first one I tried, very low and equally. The cost of all this comfort and security has been two snakebites in getting on for twenty years; I can't even say with any certainty what it has cost in extra tyre wear. My bike is expensive and a very big hassle to source and import, so I wasn't surprised when a lady wrote to me and asked if she could come from Dublin, a round trip over 300 miles, to ride it before attempting to order one like it. She loved everything about my bike but said it was a bit heavy on the steering at speed on a curvy downhill. I explained that I like it that way as a safety feature, and demonstrated that the steering could be made finger-light by just inflating the tyres higher. She frightened herself witless -- and me, following in her car, too -- when she came within inches of the thorny gorse hedge, definitely not a bike-friendly feature of the Irish landscape; I didn't fancy having to track down another in the colour scheme of British Racing Green with gold coastlines by a fellow who had been an apprentice on the assembly line in 1936 when the basic design was first made, and who in the year he lined my bike was officially declared the Master Craftsman of Europe by Volkswagen.

This was also the bike on which I made my first front drive electric motor experiment, with a motor which arrived already built into a narrow rim, which also came with a 35mm tyre by Vredestein (POS), so I tried it. This would have made a successful bike for a novice or a casual cyclist. Its main characteristic was safe understeer, which also meant it was less disturbed on bump by the uneven and sometimes even treacherous lanes of the West Cork countryside.

We've now arrived, via a set of examples of which I have experience, not just theoretical knowledge, at a point where I can answer your question. I too might have tried the fat front/narrow rear tyre distribution that you posit, had the occasion ever arisen, because I hate having road irregularities delivered via the frame straight into my hands and wrists as stress-frequencies. The problem is that I would have had to change riding style, and had to back off from the edge of adhesion to a riding style more suited to my age. Duh, dull.

Of course, if you normally ride with a sensible safety margin, you may never discover what is theoretically wrong with the fat front/narrow rear setup. If you do decide to try, start slower than you normally ride, and don't forget to let us know what you discover.

All of this is given on the assumption that we're talking about day rides. If we're talking about touring with any kind of a load, even just a saddle bag, never mind the loads we see the real transcontinental tourers on the forum carry, it seems to me obvious the fat tyre had better go on the back.

There's an additional point to consider: pedaling the fat tyre will be more efficient than the thin one, because the fat tyre's contact patch is not only larger but more optimally shaped.

Good luck.

Andyb1

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 217
Re: In praise of riding low pressure tyres fast
« Reply #139 on: October 15, 2025, 03:05:08 PM »
Paraphrasing……
If equal sized tyres at equal pressure give neutral handling then changing to a wider, softer walled front tyre at a low pressure and a narrower, stiffer walled rear tyre at a higher pressure will reduce understeer (and may make the bike too responsive).
Is that correct?

My cycle speeds are much lower than Andre’s, max 25mph (40kmh), normally 12 - 16mph,  and I rarely corner fast.  If I want to go quicker or corner steeper I use a motorbike.

I am interested in a softer 2.00” tyre on the front with the existing 1.75 Marathon Plus on the rear for touring on roads that may be rough in Sri Lanka this coming winter.  My all up weight with food and water will be 105 - 110kg.
My logic is that the softer / larger front tyre will give a little suspension over bumps while the tougher Marathon Plus on the rear will be more puncture resistant - and will be dragged over any bumps.  Repairing a rear wheel puncture is always a bit more work than a front one and rear wheel punctures seem more frequent, hence the Marathon Plus on the rear.
The slightly larger / softer front tyre should also be better at going over any sand I hit, while the heavier loaded and narrower rear tyre will did a groove and slow me down and help me stay upright.

Anyway SJS have 26 x 2.00 Big Apples at £21.99 so I rode over there today and bought one.  I also have a 26 x 2.00 Dureme I bought from mattmatt so a couple of options to try.

Could Andre expand on his second to last paragraph, copied below, as I seem to be changing my bike in the opposite way!

‘If we're talking about touring with any kind of a load, even just a saddle bag, never mind the loads we see the real transcontinental tourers on the forum carry, it seems to me obvious the fat tyre had better go on the back’


(As a footnote, on two previous tours in India I had 1.75 front tyres / 1.50 rears and that combination worked well, so I am just upping the tyre sizes a little and introducing a front tyre type which has softer walls which can be run at a lower pressure (around 30psi).)






« Last Edit: October 15, 2025, 03:20:59 PM by Andyb1 »

Andre Jute

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4203
Re: In praise of riding low pressure tyres fast
« Reply #140 on: Today at 03:31:16 AM »
Paraphrasing……
If equal sized tyres at equal pressure give neutral handling then changing to a wider, softer walled front tyre at a low pressure and a narrower, stiffer walled rear tyre at a higher pressure will reduce understeer (and may make the bike too responsive).
Is that correct?
No. "Neutral handling" is a dangerous misconception -- a neutral bike would be a lethal bike because you don't know which way it will break.  What you mean to say is "If equal sized tyres at equal pressure give PREDICTABLE, SAFE REACTIONS TO STEERING INPUTS, then" etc.

It is worth emphasizing the important implication, that roadholding/handling aren't just theoretical results of tyre choices, but in the first instance a matter of the rider's safety and security on the bike, which become more important on foreign roads of unknown quality, at higher speeds (25mph is more than enough to do you serious harm), and as the load on the bike rises as it normally does in touring. An understeering bike is safer than an oversteering bike (and a neutral bike is NOT WANTED anywhere except at the very top of road racing).

My cycle speeds are much lower than Andre’s, max 25mph (40kmh), normally 12 - 16mph,  and I rarely corner fast.

Thanks for the giggle. I actually ride slower than you do, on average 15kph/10mph, but I'm rarely on the level for any distance, so on the downhills I can get up to 55kph, though I'm now of an age where a broken hip could easily be a death warrant, and will almost certainly be the end of cycling, so every year I back off 5kph on the steepest descents, and stay an inch or two further away from the edge of the tarmac, which is also generally the edge of the deep ditch beside the lane.

My logic is that the softer / larger front tyre will give a little suspension over bumps while the tougher Marathon Plus on the rear will be more puncture resistant.

In my experience the Schwalbe Big Apple and the Schwalbe Marathon Plus (both with the best compound and the toughest anti-intrusion band) are equally puncture proof, each pair succumbing to two punctures over the course of about 11,000km. In theory, the Plus should be more puncture-resistant because of that ghetto-style anti-broken bottle sidewall where the Big Apple has a soft, thin, very flexible skein that looks like it could be broken through by exhaling near it.

Could Andre expand on his second to last paragraph, copied below, as I seem to be changing my bike in the opposite way!

‘If we're talking about touring with any kind of a load, even just a saddle bag, never mind the loads we see the real transcontinental tourers on the forum carry, it seems to me obvious the fat tyre had better go on the back’

I think you've not only answered yourself already...
I am interested in a softer 2.00” tyre on the front with the existing 1.75 Marathon Plus on the rear for touring on roads that may be rough in Sri Lanka this coming winter.  My all up weight with food and water will be 105 - 110kg.
My logic is that the softer / larger front tyre will give a little suspension over bumps while the tougher Marathon Plus on the rear will be more puncture resistant - and will be dragged over any bumps.  Repairing a rear wheel puncture is always a bit more work than a front one and rear wheel punctures seem more frequent, hence the Marathon Plus on the rear.
The slightly larger / softer front tyre should also be better at going over any sand I hit, while the heavier loaded and narrower rear tyre will did a groove and slow me down and help me stay upright. 
... but also explained why I referred to your experience.

You may remember we arrived here via me explaining that this sort of engineering thought exercise is an art. It's actually worse than that in this particular instance because tyres, whether on cars or or bikes, are infuriatingly non-intuitive in response, and frustratingly resistant to reduction to algorithms. However, there's a small relief here because we can just assume that all the other design factors on your bike are near-optimal, because the bike is a Thorn, known to be properly designed as a conservative tourer. So my first approximation, in a theoretical discussion that newbies may read and try to apply, was aimed at a standard, normative case, an answer that would endanger no one.

Add your bike load, and your experience, and we now have another condition, a loaded touring setup which you found satisfactory. The fat, low pressure tyre at the front has plenty of grip and a large contact patch to turn the greater weight, but will be slowed a little by it. The narrow rear tyre, even with greater pressure, will also squash out a bit more under the luggage mass and slow down any tendency to dangerous oversteer further. Looks to me like the load actively countered the "wrong way round" fitment. Also, your conservative incremental style of developing your bike is inherently safer than making large changes.

Something else to consider: A load in saddlebags provides surface towards the back of the bike for sidewinds to push against. This can be a good thing because bike stability is best served by the Center of (Aerodynamic) Pressure behind the Centre of Gravity of the bike with luggage and rider in place.