Early Club Tour rims

[AdrianStone]

I've seen a number of early Club Tours with Mavic T261 rims, so I gather they must have worked OK with the cantilever brakes?  I ask as my LBS tells me the front wheel which sports a Mavic T261 is too wide for the brakes to work effectively, not even if I switch to a V brake.  Opinions?

Thank you

[B cereus]

I guess this relates to your earlier post about an ineffective front cantilever brake. Have you tried lowering the straddle wire as I suggested? Doing so shouldn’t take more than a couple of minutes, and it’s the simplest, cheapest and probably the most effective thing you could do.

I own a Club tour of similar vintage to yours. It has the same Shimano cantilever brakes as yours and has Mavic T261 rims. The only difference is that mine has drop bar levers but there’s more than enough stopping power to get the rear wheel off the ground.

I think I'd be looking for another LBS.

[AdrianStone]

Thanks for the reply, and yes it is.  I've felt a bit caught between the advice here and the LBS.

Back to the LBS today to explain my concerns, they're going to look again at simpler solutions.

Thank you for the advice again, it is appreciated

[mickeg]

I've seen a number of early Club Tours with Mavic T261 rims, so I gather they must have worked OK with the cantilever brakes?  I ask as my LBS tells me the front wheel which sports a Mavic T261 is too wide for the brakes to work effectively, not even if I switch to a V brake.  Opinions?

Thank you

Let us know how wide the rims are (outside, not inside width), as I have never heard of such an issue.

Most brake pads can be adjusted for width by how the washers are placed on the pad.

[PH]

Back to the LBS today to explain my concerns, they're going to look again at simpler solutions.

I'm interested to hear the explanation!  The T261 was a popular touring rim about thirty years ago, it's 26mm width isn't in any way exceptional, it was the standard rim on many bikes including the Dawes Galaxy. There was some variation in brake boss widths until V brakes standardised it at 80mm, but forks designed for touring tyres wouldn't have been far off that.  Your canti brakes are pretty standard fare for the time period as well.  As said in your previous thread, those brakes work better the lower the straddle wire, as a consequence that also increases the distance from the rim.  I may be missing something, but I can't see why your brakes wouldn't work as well (Or as badly) as cantis have always worked.
If it were me and the bosses are wide enough and you're not concerned with keeping it original, I'd fit V brakes, there's good reason they replaced cantis, though they will also require different levers.

[mickeg]

If you switch to V brakes, as PH noted, those need different brake levers.

Or, if you want to keep using the same brake levers, you can use one of these:
https://problemsolversbike.com/products/travel-agent

Those are getting harder to find now when so may people use disc brakes instead.

I use those on my Nomad Mk II and on the front on my Lynskey.  On those bikes I am using normal road brake type brake levers.

I am using the longest Tektro V brakes that I could find, they have an arm length of 110mm.  On my Nomad I want as much clearance as possible since I use 57mm wide tires and 65mm wide fenders.  Thus, a long arm length was needed.

[B cereus]

I would recommend you have a go at solving this problem yourself. It will teach you the finer points of setting up this type of brake and give you the confidence to keep them performing optimally as the pads wear. The Park Tools web site is an excellent source of bike maintenance information.

https://www.parktool.com/en-int/blog/repair-help

This video deals with cantilever brakes which are very similar to those on your Club Tour.

https://www.parktool.com/en-int/blog/repair-help/cantilever-smooth-post-brake-service

My only criticism would be that I’m not a great fan of straddle link wires. In theory the correct length link wire should help to optimise MA but in practice this doesn’t allow for variations in the distance between the mounting bosses nor their height above the axle. Their main advantage is when running without a front mudguard, where they eliminate the risk of a conventional straddle wire snagging the front tyre and pitching you over the bars if the main cable fails.

[AdrianStone]

Thank you again for the replies.  I do now have the bike back home, the bike shop found some pads which fit, as in they don't extend back inside the forks, they do seem better, though I think I'll have a go at adjusting the height of the straddle wire, thank you for the Park Tools links.

I have checked the rim width with my ancient vernier callipers, these show the front rim to be 24mm (not 27mm!).

I do indeed have the wrong brake/shifters on flat bars, they are Shimano ST-EF35-8 and ST-ET35L, the bike was converted from drops to flats by the previous owner. I gather my options are to change these levers, to something like Deore LX M567 combined shifter/levers or change the cantilevers to V brakes, but again told by the bike shop that this would not be possible, but feel I might do this at some point, just a case of finding suitable V brakes.

Thank you again for all the words of advice and support, appreciated 

[martinf]

I do indeed have the wrong brake/shifters on flat bars, they are Shimano ST-EF35-8 and ST-ET35L, the bike was converted from drops to flats by the previous owner. I gather my options are to change these levers, to something like Deore LX M567 combined shifter/levers or change the cantilevers to V brakes, but again told by the bike shop that this would not be possible, but feel I might do this at some point, just a case of finding suitable V brakes.

I don't have issues with cantilever brakes myself. Two of my own bikes still have them, as does one of my wife's bikes. One of my "visitor" bikes has a cantilever brake on the front. Braking is less fierce than with V or disc brakes, but I can still lock the wheels on all my bikes in heavy rain, even the Bromptons with calliper brakes, so the limiting factor for braking is tyre adherence.

Converting from cantilevers to V-brakes can be an issue with drop bars, as suitable levers are becoming harder to get. It is less of a problem with flat bars. I have done several conversions on flat bar bikes, the most recent being a fairly old Dawes (probably late 1980's or early 1990's). Not yet had any flat bar bike where it wasn't possible to fit V-brakes instead of cantilevers.

For these conversions I use inexpensive XLC BR-V03 110 mm V-brakes, these give good clearance on wide tyres with mudguards. I reckon they work as well as more expensive models so long as the original brake pads are replaced, and with their bronze pivot bushes they seem to last quite well. Paired with fairly inexpensive Shimano DEORE BL-T610 brake levers, good quality brake cables and housings and Kool Stop brake pads (there are other good brands), in my opinion they work better than cheap cable operated disc brakes and about as well as the entry level Shimano hydraulic disc brakes.

I only have one disc brake on my own bikes, it is a good quality cable-operated TRP Spyre on the rear of my "touring" Brompton, which is heavily modified from standard with a Rohloff hub. Braking is, as always, limited by tyre adherence. The disc has three advantages on this bike :

- transmission picks up less muck than with a rim brake. It isn't possible to fit a Chainglider on a Brompton.
- rim wear is eliminated. The 16" rims on Bromptons wear quicker than on a large wheel bike, this isn't much of an issue for me as the rims are reasonably inexpensive and I build my own wheels.
- rim heating on long descents is eliminated for the rear wheel. Small rims heat up quicker than large ones. The disc will heat and cause brake fade, but I reckon this is less dangerous than the tyre blowing off a hot rim. 

[B cereus]

I do indeed have the wrong brake/shifters on flat bars, they are Shimano ST-EF35-8 and ST-ET35L,

I’m not surprised that braking performance was poor with V brake specific levers.  I would make it a priority to fit full size V brake callipers both front and rear before I rode that bike much further.

Decent V brakes aren’t expensive and there’s a good supply on the secondhand market. The cheapest options generally use the frame mounting boss as a pivot bearing. Paying a little more will get you internal pivot bearing bushes and better brake shoes with replaceable pad option.

[mickeg]

...
I do indeed have the wrong brake/shifters on flat bars, they are Shimano ST-EF35-8 and ST-ET35L, the bike was converted from drops to flats by the previous owner. I gather my options are to change these levers, to something like Deore LX M567 combined shifter/levers or change the cantilevers to V brakes, but again told by the bike shop that this would not be possible, but feel I might do this at some point, just a case of finding suitable V brakes.
...

I am not going to try to figure out by model numbers if the levers are mountain bike type levers or road type levers.

Road type levers have much shorter cable pull distance, but they put much more tension on the cable than mountain bike levers.  Thus, if you are using mountain bike type levers on canti brakes (canti brakes that should be used with road type levers), you need a lot more hand strength to put as much cable tension to activate the brakes.  I think that is what you are saying your situation is.

On the bikes where I showed my V brakes where I use the Travel Agents, I am using road levers which put a lot of tension but not a lot of cable travel distance.  The travel agents convert that short pull/high cable tension to long cable pull/less tension to activate the brakes.

I use road type levers on my Airnimal Joey.  And I use "mini" V brakes on that without using the Travel Agent to compensate for cable pull/tension.  The mini V brakes that I use have 85mm long arms.  I have to be careful when I hit the front brake that I do not go over the bars on that bike.

I do not have any good photos of the brakes on my Airnimal, but I cropped a much bigger photo that does show the mini V brakes.  The tires on this bike are 40mm wide, as you can see there are no fenders.  I doubt that these brakes would fit on your bike if you have fenders as 85mm arm length may be too short.

[PH]

As B cereus says, you appear to be using V brake levers with canti brakes, that's a mis match that is never going to give satisfactory braking.  The first thing I would do would be to stop using that bike shop, they should have spotted and pointed that out to you on the first visit. If your bosses are 80mm apart, or close, get some V brakes.  If they are significantly less, you'll need some straight bar short pull levers.
It's confusing that people are referring to these a road or MTB components.  There's long and short pull brakes and brake levers, whilst it's more common to find short pull used with drop bars, they are in no way exclusive.

[mickeg]

...
It's confusing that people are referring to these a road or MTB components.  There's long and short pull brakes and brake levers, whilst it's more common to find short pull used with drop bars, they are in no way exclusive.

Sorry if I am confusing, but that is the way I learned it many years ago.  Long cable pull was specific to V brakes, and I only saw those on mountain bikes at first.