Author Topic: I'll consider the Gates Drive when it gets a Hebie Chainglider of its own  (Read 7016 times)

Andre Jute

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General experience is that:

*A Hebie Chainglider from the second and third generation (there may be more generations in recent years but those are the two generations I own and see no reason to replace) matched to the specific hub gearbox for which it was made, and the tooth count and width of chainring for which it was made, but which still requires constant fidgeting with it, is incompetently fitted.

*A properly specified and fitted Chainglider is, for practical purposes, silent. I was for my entire life, whichever other professions I practised for a while, a critic of serious music and a designer of ultra-fidelity audiophile speakers and amplifiers, and luxury cars the price of a big yacht, so I'm nuts about extraneous noise. The Chainglider, in my not so humble opinion, is silent enough. If you have to ride in the middle of the night on the painted lines on a smooth road to hear a component, it is silent for all practical purposes.

*Similarly, for all practical purposes except possibly rare extremes, the Chainglider is well-enough sealed. No chain cover is fully sealed; vintage chain cover talk of "oil bath" running would be actionable at law under current legislation and was always a lie before it became a crime. I run my fave chain (KMC X8) for its entire life on the factory lube inside a Chainglider, and still get three times the chain life I got without the Chainglider; zero maintenance or even inspection now that I know it works. I won't pretend that saving two chains out of every three is a big financial deal -- chains are the cheapest consumable items on a bike -- but zero maintenance every 100km is a very big deal for me, and I bet for others too. Per chain in my use, that is five and a half days (45 hours) in which I can do something else more productive than cleaning a chain. Thank you, Hebie, for the Chainglider!

*There's correspondence on this forum about running a Chainglider in a very specific, truly extreme condition, the playa type of desert -- basically a huge plain of concrete mix just waiting for water to set hard -- in which I thought it was possible that the Chainglider would act as a former to set a chain solid in concrete. But that's all theory; it's never been tested. After further years of experience in which, riding in Ireland, which is the "green and beloved isle" because it rains all the time, I never found any sign of wet or even dust ingress in my Chaingliders, I'm not sure about even the playa being hostile enough to call for the removal of a Chainglider.

*Since the Chainglider is so often contrasted with the Gates belt drive, photographs commonly available of Gates installations in use show considerable caking in the hollows between the "teeth" which will require frequent cleaning if the belt is to work optimally, or perhaps at all. That's exactly why one fits a Chainglider or the Gates belt: to avoid maintenance! The Gates belt has to be replaced too, just like a chain, and is bound to cost more than a chain.

*So the belt drive in its current development isn't permanent, it isn't maintenance-free, and it isn't clean (another major consideration for those of us who cycle in street clothes). All in all, I think it is a comparison the Gates Drive cannot win, even at the same price, until it comes with a wider Chainglider to accommodate it. Good luck with getting Hebie to make a Chainglider for the Gates belt (c.f. more correspondence on this forum about getting Hebie to make a 36-tooth front part for the Chainglider).

*Inside a Chainglider of its own, the Gates Drive belt, which is made with automobile camshaft timing belt technology, potentially could reach a lifespan approaching 60,000m/100,000km, like the belts in cars. Even two thirds of that mileage, to allow for the Chainglider not being fully sealed, like the belt cover in a car, would still be spectacular performance.

*"A Hebie Chainglider makes my bike look like a sissy with lily-white hands rides it." Listen up, my old son, women don't like to be handled with calloused hands. You'll thank the Chainglider for soft clean hands, too.

energyman

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Six of one and half a dozen of the other.
I've three bikes with Gates and one with a chain (my beloved RST) and no Herbies on any of them.
You still have to clean them but the belts just need a quick splash with a watering can compared with the chain.
Good points in the above article though.
Mind you I don't do any exotic journeys just UK only.

WorldTourer

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A Hebie Chainglider from the second and third generation (there may be more generations in recent years but those are the two generations I own and see no reason to replace) matched to the specific hub gearbox for which it was made, and the tooth count and width of chainring for which it was made, but which still requires constant fidgeting with it, is incompetently fitted.

Why do you blame the user here, instead of the manufacturer for making a product where fitting is something so easy to, in your opinion, get wrong? I’m also curious how much offroad riding you are doing and how well your own fitted Hebie Chainglider would hold up maintenance-free on all the bumpy bikepacking routes to which younger generations of riders are increasingly drawn.

Quote
Since the Chainglider is so often contrasted with the Gates belt drive, photographs commonly available of Gates installations in use show considerable caking in the hollows between the "teeth" which will require frequent cleaning if the belt is to work optimally, or perhaps at all.

Instead of looking at photographs, have you tried actually riding on a long tour with a Gates firsthand? “Caking in the hollows” doesn’t occur to any degree sufficient to require frequent cleaning of a belt, and generally one goes about cleaning a Gates drive with a splash of water and/or a toothbrush (no degreaser required, so much easier than with a chain) only if there is squeaky noise. When I rode the Baja Divide last season – one of very many cyclists with belts on Rohloffs or Pinions – I never once felt a need to brush my belt on that route which is, all in all, perhaps the filthiest I have ever cycled.

I get seriously weirded out by some of the people on this forum – and it is only this forum – who so ardently defend the Chainglider. I really think you need to get out more.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2023, 08:45:48 PM by WorldTourer »

martinf

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I get seriously weirded out by some of the people on this forum – and it is only this forum – who so ardently defend the Chainglider. I really think you need to get out more.

Perhaps because it is a simple and relatively inexpensive way of significantly reducing transmission maintenance (for at least some patterns of use) on existing bikes?

Chainglider has been well worth it for me, especially noticeable whan I was doing survey work with my old utility bike (8 hours a day, with a significant proportion of riding on wet and muddy paths and farm tracks).

A belt drive might be even better, but I am unlikely to try it myself unless/until I have to get an electric bike or recumbent due to age or disability.

Chainglider and belt both have limitations - no derailleurs, and only certain chainring/sprocket combinations will work.

Andre Jute

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Why do you blame the user here, instead of the manufacturer for making a product where fitting is something so easy to, in your opinion, get wrong?


I didn't say anything about the "fitting is something so easy to get wrong". I didn't say it because it isn't true. The evidence is all to the contrary, that most people fit the Chainglider and forget about it, like a stem or a bottom bracket. Further evidence is that those who somehow get it wrong, and have the sense to ask, invariably get it right in one or two tries.

I’m also curious how much offroad riding you are doing and how well your own fitted Hebie Chainglider would hold up maintenance-free on all the bumpy bikepacking routes to which younger generations of riders are increasingly drawn.




A sticky-mudslinging forest firebreak at night. My trousers had to be hung on the line to dry and then be brushed off because my wife thought all the mud on them would clog the washing machine. The bike and the Chainglider were hosed off; the Chainglider kept the chain dry and the mud off it.



These particular potholes are on the level and I ride right through them at about 25kph in the dark (the photo is professionally jazzed up to permit you to see what the camera saw but the rider didn't), but there are similar ones at the bottom of several other hills that I ride through in the dark at 50-60kph. None of this bothers the Chainglider which is wonderfully well-designed to flex on impact. I don't know why you bring it up; surely, if you had a Chainglider, and took it offload, you've observed this.

Here's a photo of the result when you miss your bike's footing at 45kph in the dark, an irreplaceable vintage pedal broken off on the edge of the ditch as the bike (and the rider) dropped into it:



The Chainglider was undisturbed. It's difficult to think of anything more you can ask of a chain enclosure.

Instead of looking at photographs, have you tried actually riding on a long tour with a Gates firsthand?

Why? I have a chain protector and life-extender and trousers-bottom-shield that works and that will outlive the alternative you're boosting, because the Chainglider is a permanent installation whereas the Gates Drive belt is a consumable component. BTW, I had a Gates Drive bike on test, and couldn't find the extra cost-benefit. I've also been on the Baja, racing beach buggies back in the day, and I wouldn't describe it as "filthy" compared to, say, rallying cars in tropical and sub-tropical Africa, or even to riding in Australian mud.

...generally one goes about cleaning a Gates drive with a splash of water and/or a toothbrush...

A toothbrush? Are you serious? Why should anybody want an expensive wearing device that doesn't add any functionally but requires bending over the bike for long enough to clean umpteen crevices with a toothbrush (!), especially when they already have in the Chainglider a cheap device that performs the same function with zero maintenance and indefinite service life? Bragging rights don't cut a whole lotta ice with most of the mature riders here.

I get seriously weirded out by some of the people on this forum – and it is only this forum – who so ardently defend the Chainglider. I really think you need to get out more.

Relax and smell the coffee, man, or people will think you sound like an "ardently" jilted lover about the Chainglider.

Now, if you really want to rile people up, say that Brooks makes overpriced cult saddles...


Matt2matt2002

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Oooo. Golly gosh, I've got to jump in here.

As an exotic tourer who had faithfully used a C glider for  many years in several hot n rough countries; I'm hooked and get shivers looking at bike chains without them.
Easy to fit? Not for me at first but soon got the hang of it and now, dead easy. Don't remove the front part when changing a rear flat.
Silent? Definitely. In fact I still find it a bit spooky.

Wear n tear? Yep, I had to replace the front section after quite a few years when it stopped clicking together. I didn't have to buy the whole unit, just the front section.

Perfect? Of course not. What is? Faults? My pal won't have one because he likes to see what his chain is doing. Quote. Fair enough.

I'm not out to convince anyone it's a must have, just to say, it's suits me and my exotic touring.

Just had 2,500 km pop up on the Cateye, here in Thailand. No issues with the Raven.
Pumped the rear Marathon up a wee bit and tweeked the brakes a few weeks ago.

Cheers

Matt
Never drink and drive. You may hit a bump  and spill your drink

WorldTourer

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I've also been on the Baja, racing beach buggies back in the day, and I wouldn't describe it as "filthy" compared to, say, rallying cars in tropical and sub-tropical Africa, or even to riding in Australian mud.

The Baja Divide, over its 2,000 km distance, has many different kinds of filth, including thick mud on one section. There are also a great deal of water crossings (~15 fords in just the one single day before Múlege), and I was happy to be able to ride straight through them on my belt drive. A chain would have required careful oiling, and a Chainglider would have had to be taken off to dry the chain.

A toothbrush? Are you serious? Why should anybody want an expensive wearing device that doesn't add any functionally but requires bending over the bike for long enough to clean umpteen crevices with a toothbrush (!)

Again, you are writing out of your imagination of how belt drives work rather than actual experience with them. If one wants to clean the belt a little because there is a squeak – which in my experience is actually a rare development – that doesn’t mean the painstaking brushing of every hollow that one would do with a chain. It generally means just swiping the brush across the belt, then turning the cranks and doing the same once more, and then you are done.

Great that the Chainglider works for you on rough roads. I chose to toss it in a bin along the Peruvian Divide, where the Chainglider would shift over rough terrain, especially on the hike-a-bike sections where the bike frequently gets knocked from the side.

If the Chainglider is so great, then why have I almost never encountered it on popular bikepacking routes, while I have seen more and more belts? After all, the community is generally quick to take up technology that is regarded as superior: disc brakes, forks with the triple-screw pattern for both racks and Anything Cages, Pinion gearboxes, frame bags, tubeless tires, etc. Perhaps the Chainglider is popular in local riding in Britain or on casual touring routes like Eurovelo, I don’t know. But the original thread that kicked this off was about the Nomad Mk3, so the context was a belt-ready expedition touring bike.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2023, 02:48:38 PM by WorldTourer »

JohnR

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I accept that there may be certain dusty conditions which a belt tolerates better than a protected chain. However, my experience with a Gates CDX belt drive was that it wasn't maintenance-free when used on mucky UK winter roads whereas a full Chainglider protected the chain on my Mercury under the same road conditions. I'm now on a different Rohloff bike with a chain tensioner and open Chainglider which doesn't give full protection so the chain did progressively get grimy last winter. Once spring had properly arrived I took that chain off and binned it with the replacement being another £6 chain.

One major disadvantage of a belt drive is the expense of changing the gearing ratio which necessitates buying another belt and chainring or sprocket.

Andre Jute

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Which £6 chain was that, John? Do you have an estimate of its mileage?

Rohloff riders who change their chainring tooth count need at a new front part of the modular Chainglider but generally all the common Rohloff sprockets fit the Rolloff-specific rear part of the Chainglider. Of course, you can buy many complete Chaingliders for the cost of altering one Gates setup.  i know you know all this, but it's useful to have it on the record for newbies.

BTW, this might shock some of you, but I actually think the Gates Drive is the future of cycling, and for two reasons. The first is something that you won't notice if the only cycling group you belong to is the Thorn Forum. Most bicyclists are fashion victims. The second reason merely reinforces the first one. It is that OEMs, bike manufacturers, need to add value about which they can shout "New! NEW!" from the rooftops not only to keep up their profits but to grow them. Those two factors will eventually relegate the Hebie Chainglider to a niche cult of rational cyclists, who will always be in the minority.

The greatest rationality of the Chainglider is that it fixes to within very narrow limits the dynamic losses inherent in an open chain as it becomes progressively more dirty. There is only one other bicycle power transmission device which can match the Chainglider in this respect, and it is an enclosed shaft drive, which has greater efficiency losses than any chain or belt system but which I think is likely to make a comeback now that so many electric bicycles are sold. The Gates Drive suffers a decrease in efficiency the further one rides it, only of a lesser extent than the open chain.

JohnR

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Which £6 chain was that, John? Do you have an estimate of its mileage?
KMC Z1 Narrow. It had done about 2000 miles. I decided, since I had a good stock of of those chains, that it was less hassle to replace it than to clean it. The new chain will probably have the same fate next spring but will have accumulated more miles.

For those with derailleur bikes the expense of changing the gearing range of a belt drive will be no surprise as they haven't experienced the ease of changing only the sprocket for a hub gear.

Danneaux

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This seems a good time and place to remind readers of the VeerCycle Split Belt drive system. Past thread here...
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=13283.0
Related thread here...
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=14076.0
 
Cost for the Veer kit is USD$349 including splittable belt, sprocket, and chainring. It is more flexible and runs at lower tension than the Gates system and does not require a split frame as the split is in the belt (overlapping split with pins). No connection to the maker. See...
https://www.veercycle.com/collections/all/products/split-belt-pro?_pos=1&_fid=ad7fa2758&_ss=c

They seem to be out of stock on 'most everything at present, but I see they do offer Rohloff-compatible sprockets.

A recent post on IG indicates they have developed a rear "derailleur" and two-piece rear sprocket that appears to "grow" under use. A tensioner takes up slack. Interesting stuff that is being teased by them at present. See...
https://www.instagram.com/p/Ct_C8TzPiX5/

Best, Dan.

Matt2matt2002

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A recent post on IG indicates they have developed a rear "derailleur" and two-piece rear sprocket that appears to "grow" under use. A tensioner takes up slack. Interesting stuff that is being teased by them at present. See...
https://www.instagram.com/p/Ct_C8TzPiX5/

Wow. I had to take a couple of looks at that!
And would a Rohloff be up front?

Best
Matt

Never drink and drive. You may hit a bump  and spill your drink

Danneaux

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Quote
And would a Rohloff be up front?
Matt, I think it would be better suited to a Pinion or electric mid-drive rather than the Rohloff. It appears to take up a lot of width and I don't see there'd be enough room for it on a Rohloff hub.

I have no real idea, but speculate it might be a 2-speed alternative for single-speed urban bikes? Maybe it auto-shifts at speed?

The video is sure intriguing. The tensioner is just that, while there appears to be some sort of lateral movement that sort of "folds" one sprocket toward the other to derail the chain before "growing" in apparent diameter. I'll look forward to learning more.

Best, Dan.

steve216c

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What I find amusing about this thread is how some users are passionate about being anti-Chainglider. Of course those who have learned of its virtues happy to extol them for the benefits of the the undecided or un/under-informed.

Of course everyone is absolutely entitled to their own opinions and to voice them in a friendly way.

I’d happily ride a belt drive bike if I was buying again and there was one at the right price point for me to afford. But despite the relatively high mileage I clock each year I personally don’t see the cost benefit of converting my bike or buying another bike when chain and Chainglider are such a good value and long lived combination for me.

I wonder if we could get such passionate arguments on which kind of audible signal works best on our bikes. A bell, an electric siren or a vintage post horn perhaps?

Answers on a postcard  :o

 
If only my bike shed were bigger on the inside...

WorldTourer

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What I find amusing about this thread is how some users are passionate about being anti-Chainglider.

Not me. I have just been on this forum long enough to recognize that a certain other user has made the Chainglider his idée fixe. Seemingly every bicycle forum has its resident oddball like that. I have nothing against casual riders who feel the Chainglider works for them, I just think that experience with the wider cycling community on more varied routes would put paid to any hyperbole that it’s a miracle technology and its users a chosen people.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2023, 05:58:15 PM by WorldTourer »