Author Topic: Pedal width increase?  (Read 5764 times)

ourclarioncall

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Pedal width increase?
« on: April 01, 2023, 04:07:54 am »
I’m going to try an explain this but might need a couple attempts

Here goes

When I’m riding my bike it feels like my feet want to be out wider but obviously they can’t or they will fall off the pedals

If I measured from the outside of the left pedal to the outside of the right pedal and got 15 inches (just randomly made that up) can I increase it to 25 inches ? (Hypothetically)

Can the length of the cranks or pedal platform where your feet rest by wider?

After a lot a squat exercise and analysis I’ve figured out I have long femurs/upper legs and I think shallow hip sockets.

In squatting people are often told to squat with their feet at shoulder width and feet facing forward but that is a one size fits all approach and just won’t work for everyone. I need legs wider and toes pointing out at an angle .

Knowing this now, I wonder how this transfers over into the cycling world and getting a proper bike fit .

Is this something that bike manufacturers or bike fitting experts take into consideration?

ourclarioncall

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Re: Pedal width increase?
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2023, 04:13:29 am »
I think that’s one of the reasons my bike doesn’t feel right

I also feel like my pedals go too close to the ground , there’s been times I’m pedalling and my ankles point down and my toes are almost hitting the pavement

My toes also feel like they are too close to the front wheel . I’ve never had panniers on the front low rack but it feels like my toes would get close to hitting them.

I think it’s a short frame and it came with drop bars . I’m about 6 foot tall , long legs shorter torso . My legs just feel a bit cooped up and cramped . Older Thorn bike

ourclarioncall

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Re: Pedal width increase?
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2023, 04:14:24 am »
I don’t have huge feet either. About uk 9 or 10

JohnR

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Re: Pedal width increase?
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2023, 09:03:19 am »
You aren't the first to discover that your feet want to be on the end of the pedals. Solutions are available https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/search/?term=pedal+extender. Our hip structures aren't standard sizes and are often asymmetic.

I first fitted extenders on each side, then only on the right side as it was over-correcting the left side and my current solution is to fit the widest bottom bracket available (131.5mm) with the chainring on the inside of the spider to give the required chainline for the Rohloff.  However, this is on a non-Thorn bike which uses a 68mm bottom bracket whereas my Mercury (and I think the other Thorn bikes) use a 73mm bottom bracket for which the biggest width I can find is 122.5mm.

Have you read the bike fit guide at https://wheel-easy.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/bike-set-up-2017a.pdf ?

mickeg

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Re: Pedal width increase?
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2023, 09:19:30 am »
...
If I measured from the outside of the left pedal to the outside of the right pedal and got 15 inches (just randomly made that up) can I increase it to 25 inches ? (Hypothetically)

Can the length of the cranks or pedal platform where your feet rest by wider?
...

You can increase your Q factor by a small amount with pedal spindle extenders, but I do not recall exactly what the proper name is.  If you extended each one by 5 inches, such as you suggest, you would likely hit the ground every time you pedaled around a curve.  Also, if you extended them that much, you might put so much torque on your crank arms that they might fail.

I wanted my Q factor reduced on my Rohloff bike to match my derailleur bikes, thus my bottom bracket spindle is about 10mm shorter than it should be for optimum chainline.

Google Bicycle Q Factor for more detail.


...
I also feel like my pedals go too close to the ground , there’s been times I’m pedalling and my ankles point down and my toes are almost hitting the pavement

My toes also feel like they are too close to the front wheel . I’ve never had panniers on the front low rack but it feels like my toes would get close to hitting them.
...

I do not understand your ankle and toe angles.

Toe overlap where your shoe toes touch the front wheel or front fender (mudguard) is somewhat common.  I have toe overlap where they touch on all of my 700c wheel size bikes that have fenders installed, but it only occurs at slow speed sharp turns where I have the handlebars turned enough to put the front wheel and fender far enough to the side where my shoes can hit the fenders.  When you make a short speed tight turn, you get used to not pedaling during the turn to avoid it.

But I do not have toe overlap on 26 inch wheel bikes.  That said, if I have been riding one of my 700c bikes recently, I also stop pedaling on slow sharp turns on the 26 inch wheel bikes too because it is a habit.

Bike frame designers I think try to design bikes to avoid toe overlap but just by a little bit for the average rider, and they do not seem to take fenders into account into their designs, even on touring bikes where fenders are commonly used.

I will be out of town and off the computer for several weeks, I will not be responding on any followup questions.

PH

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Re: Pedal width increase?
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2023, 10:40:18 am »
There's a lot in your post, bike fit is complex, a lot of it is counter intuitive and every element you adjust will have an impact on at least one other.  There is no universal right and wrong, though there's general agreement that getting the saddle to pedal distance, both height and layback, where you're happy with it is fundamental. The guide JohnR links is a good place to start,, it takes a few reads, then working through with a friend and a tape measure, it's an afternoons effort, but well worth it, it might not result in perfection, but you'll be left with an understanding why not.

If you have toe overlap on a 26" wheel Thorn bike, something is the wrong size, most likely the frame, though possibly the cranks. You should have clearance measured in cm rather than mm, I do on my 700c Thorns with the biggest tyres possible. That doesn't mean you're not going to be  able to get comfortable on it, though it'll never be optimum and there's nothing you can do to increase toe clearance without a worse compromise.

Wider stance, Q factor, is in some ways personal preference.  There's good biomechanical reasons why keeping the foot under the knee joint is good for you, but if it's uncomfortable, for whatever reason, then compromises have to be made. I ride a bit duck footed, that is toe out/heel in, if I don't have a wider stance my heels (Particularly the left) if knocking the chainstay.  On a Rohloff bike it's quite easy to widen the Q, longer BB and move the chainring in.  I've also found, since giving up on SPD's after twenty years, that my foot position changes depending on what I'm doing,  pulling away, climbing, cruising... I like these wide pedals, despite being plastic and a third the price of others I've had, they have been my favorites for a few years:
https://www.bikeradar.com/reviews/components/pedals/ht-pa03a-flat-pedals-review/

Whatever you do, don't change multiple things at the same time and do give each change adequate time to evaluate.  If you do change more than one thing and it works, you may think you've won, but you won't know why and will end up back where you started next time round.

Andre Jute

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Re: Pedal width increase?
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2023, 12:54:05 pm »
Narrow tread width, what the cool boys call the Q factor to baffle you, is an evil legacy from bike racing, where fractions of aerodynamic advantage are said to count. It doesn't have much to do with a touring bicycle or with a utility or commuting rider unless he is ultrafit and ultra-knowledgeable, the sort of person who has a special frame on his handlebars to hold a cheat sheet of which gears follow which in his derailleurs, which helps him achieve the maximum possible efficiency.

I have the same problem as you, that my stance is naturally wider then even a Rohloff chainlink (which the peloton boys have already pointed out to me is somehow "unnaturally" wide, whatever that means). Unfortunately, my favourite block pedals are the silky smooth VP-191 which are not very wide. I bought a pair of wiiiiide vintage block pedals on Ebay -- for which a collector acting via the seller instantly made me a higher offer -- but unfortunately I drove off the road on a lane where a harvester or tractor had knocked a piece out of the road and I was going too fast before dawn to see it, and snapped off one of these really super pedals as it caught the edge of the tarmac over the deep ditch. In several years I haven't been able to find another pair, which I imagine accounts for the other fellow's offer.

My solution is to use the pedals I like, the VP-191 (inexpensive as pedals go, stocked by SJS), and wear shoes with thick rubber soles which are naturally a little stiff, and simply not to pay attention to the fact that the pedals are not truly wide enough for my size twelves. I wouldn't advise this solution for a long distance tourer, because it might give him some kind of repetitive stress injury in the middle of his foot-soles, but for my day-rides I've never noticed an adverse reaction.

You might also with profit study the angle of cranks. Racing cranks and vintage cranks, and recreations of the latter by people like Orange in the States, are virtually perpendicular to the ground, in aid of that narrow tread everyone in cycling axiomatically assumes is a good thing. However, angled cranks are available, and they can give you valuable centimetres of outward spacing. Instead of trying to make up all the extra pedal separation you need all in one bound with a longer bottom bracket and pedal shaft extenders, I would suggest that it is more sensible to divide the distance by as many means as available: longer axle in your bottom bracket, bottom bracket spacers, angled cranks, pedal axle extenders. Furthermore, don't try for too much at once: do it in steps, with adequate time on the bike to get used to one adjustment before you make the next. My own experience is that millimetres make a difference to a satisfactory bike fit, so that it is a pleasure to ride the bike rather than a duty; the obverse is that the same millimetres can make you so acutely uncomfortable that you mistakenly start to believe you need a huge adjustment.

About you on your bike feeling like a gorilla in too small a cage, perhaps I missed the part where you say you raised the seat post and then moved it horizontally until you are in a comfortable position, after which you may also have to adjust the handlebars because with your back at your preferred angle, your reach to the handlebars will have changed. Fiddly, but you have to do it only once.

All these adjustments interact, another reason to proceed by small steps.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2023, 03:56:37 pm by Andre Jute »

Danneaux

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Re: Pedal width increase?
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2023, 03:23:56 pm »
Quote
My toes also feel like they are too close to the front wheel . I’ve never had panniers on the front low rack but it feels like my toes would get close to hitting them....

By any chance, are you pedaling by centering your arches on the pedals? That would move your toes forward into a position where they would be "too close" to the front wheel or front panniers.

Most folks are comfortable pedaling with the balls of their feet roughly centered over the pedal spindle, giving more forward toe clearance. A lot depends on your footwear as well. Cleated shoes don't allow for as much freedom in foot placement and encourage the ball of foot placement.

That said, "be you" and do what you need to feel and be comfortable on the bike. Cycling is a repetitive-motion activity and getting things wrong for you can easily and quickly lead to repetitive-motion injuries, not good.

It can take a good while to get a bike fitted properly to one's own needs. When I first started riding "with intent" some decades ago, I did it over time by making adjustments one at a time (see PH's advice) till nothing hurt. I then duplicated those measurements on other bikes as I came to know what was required for me and why. Dialing out the pain also happily resulted in the most efficient ride for me.

Best of luck; hoping you'll get all dialed in soonest so you can ride in comfort and joy.

Best, Dan.

martinf

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Re: Pedal width increase?
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2023, 04:36:34 pm »
Narrow tread width, what the cool boys call the Q factor to baffle you, is an evil legacy from bike racing

Not sure it's that.

The 1950's and early 1970's bikes I had in my youth all had narrow Q-factors. I think this was because the bikes were either single-speed, 3 speed-hub gear or 5-speed derailleur, no multiple chainrings, not the current 10-11-12 sprockets or wide gear hub, so no need for a wide chainline.

When I got a "proper" tourer later on, it had TA Cyclotourist cranks, these have a significantly narrower Q-factor then most modern cranks. I still use this model of crank on many of the family bikes.

The angled cranks now used on touring bikes such as my 2012 Thorn have a wider Q-factor, and they felt odd to me at first. I have got used to them, but I still prefer to have a narrow Q-factor when it is possible, although this doesn't seem to make all that much difference to comfort.

 


martinf

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Re: Pedal width increase?
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2023, 04:51:32 pm »
Pedal width.

For me, this depends on the footwear I generally use.

Most of my bikes are set up for using old-fashioned black leather cycling shoes and toeclips. On these I have fairly narrow pedals, ranging from narrow MKS "Racing" pedals to various types of slightly wider quill pedals.

The visitor bikes and my old utility bike are set up for using footwear that isn't meant specifically for bikes, this ranges from low-profile walking shoes that are only a tad wider than my cycling shoes, through sandals, hiking boots and even Wellington boots.

So I have wider "rat trap" style pedals on these bikes.

Ground clearance and overlap with the front mudguard

This isn't a problem for me, as I changed to 150 or 155 mm cranks a long while back (30 years ?). Short cranks solved my knee pain problems (up till now, fingers crossed that it will keep on working), and induce me to spin a relatively low gear rather than mash  a high gear . So theoretically less stress on the knee joint but more repetitive movements for a given speed. Shorter cranks mean I put the seat post 15 to 20 mms higher than when I used 170 mm cranks, so I tend to use slightly bigger frames.

« Last Edit: April 02, 2023, 11:47:04 am by martinf »

PH

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Re: Pedal width increase?
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2023, 08:07:02 am »
Sheldon attributes the term "Q Factor" to Grant Petersen who offers an explanation about the meaning and importance:
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/bridgestone/1991/pages/bridgestone-1991-13.htm

Andre Jute

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Re: Pedal width increase?
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2023, 04:07:33 pm »
When I got a "proper" tourer later on, it had TA Cyclotourist cranks, these have a significantly narrower Q-factor then most modern cranks. I still use this model of crank on many of the family bikes.

Horses for courses, of course, but in my opinion the 52mm bolt diameter TA and contemporary Stronglight cranks (and chainrings) of that bygone period were the most elegant cranks of all time, both in appearance and engineering. It's a pity their tread is too narrow for the new generation of comfort cyclists.

Thanks for the link to Grant Petersen's article, Paul. I'm not so sure I believe his implication that the human body requires a narrow tread. Perhaps it is just that I came to cycling late in life, but my feet tend to agree with ourclarioncall that they would appreciate a wider space between the pedals than the traditional road bike provides.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2023, 04:24:34 pm by Andre Jute »

Pavel

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Re: Pedal width increase?
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2023, 06:21:38 am »
I used to race in crits, and q factor was a big deal because we had to peddle through corners.  So were short cranks and a high cadence, before the rest of the cycling world knew what that was. But one of my coaches explained that is is also much better for the body's physiology to have a small Q factor.  It uses your larger muscles, he said. 

I don't know if there is a chance that he was wrong, but he was a coach certified at the national level, and I've seen a lot of cycists with atrocious preferences as far as ergonomic, where they meet efficiency.  So for those drivers that ask "is there a good steering wheel for using my feet to steer" - I'd suggest that one should update preferences in the direction of what is ergonomic and efficient.  Pedaling like a duck is great only if one is a duck, if that makes any sense.  ;) 

Pavel

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Re: Pedal width increase?
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2023, 06:22:55 am »
Oh and one other detail.  Turning ones toes inward was also highly recommended. 

mickeg

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Re: Pedal width increase?
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2023, 03:09:32 pm »
Oh and one other detail.  Turning ones toes inward was also highly recommended.

I never heard of that, but I was not a racer and never tried to study what they were doing.

I like to have some float in my shoes with cleats, but I think none of my shoes or pedals allow enough float to accomplish that.