Complexities of selling a Thorn Audax bike.

[tyreon]

For some time I have been wasting time in looking at some bikes for sale. (I dont know why,but the interest is better than murdering people ). I have been watching (former?)member Leftpoole try to sell his Audax bike,first on here, then via the CTC bike sell section,then via Gumtree. It just aint selling!

I dont see anything wrong with the bike,and maybe if I were 40 again and had the legs and the dosh,I might put in an offer.

Still,it does not sell.

I dont think there is anything wrong with the bike or the flexible(?)price,but that...the market for prospective buyers of such a bike is very limited...In my opinion.

I will rule out any woman being interested in the bike(could be wrong . I will then rule out any man under,say,25. Then another audience of men who have no interest in any form of cycling: 85%. The bike is somewhat specialist for a niche market: rule out another40%. Then rule out those with limited income or are in ill health. Rule out some more whose size or height might not suit the cycle: another 5%. Geography plays a part: rule out another 10% because they live in Scotland or wherever and who cant be bothered to get down to the South West. Rule out again those who dont look at bicycles for sale or who dont look for bicycles for sale in the CTC,Thorn or Gumtree adverts. I have already dismissed anyone of any BAME or black background because they are little represented in cycling,or this bike's sorta cycling(hope I am not being racist;generalising ). Where am I now in trying to find a person to sell this bike to? I think I might have two persons in the UK at the moment: and one has just become a father,and the other one has just bought a bike before he saw Leftpoole's advertisement!

I hope Leftpoole sells his bike.

I am left trying to sell one of my own Thorn bikes!

I had someone call me with some genuine interest: but they left for a better,cheaper bike,better located,maybe?

The remaining interest seems to be ....how to you say...prospective purchasers from Lagos or surrounds?

I guess all things will sell in the end. When the price falls. Still,the market is limited.

[PH]

I think bikes being sold by enthusiasts are only likely to appeal to other enthusiasts who are looking for exactly that thing, or who will make compromises for a bargain.  I wouldn't spend 70% of the new price on a bike that was almost what I wanted, even when that might be a financially sensible decision.  For me, choosing the options rather than someone else having done so, along with the suppliers after sales service, would be worth the extra 30%.  Others will decide for themselves what they consider value, but as an occasional eBay browser, I see plenty of decent bikes fail to reach 50% of their original costs, though there are of course exceptions and some unfathomables like Bromptons, used versions of which often sell for close to the new price!
I could do with selling at least one bike, preferably two, I have no expectation of getting anything like what I consider them worth.  I had a genuine offer for one that I turned down, it didn't cover the replacement costs of the parts I could re-use on other bikes, I'd be financially better off stripping it for parts and throwing away a perfectly good frameset! With the other, my Hewitt, I've painted myself into the same corner as the Audax bike you mention.  I had it resprayed and re-built with no expense spared, spent about £800 on a bike that would be unlikely to sell for half that.  I have no reasonable expectation of recouping what I spent, I knew that before I did it, but expected to get more use from it.  I think that's the key, value comes from usage, I've sold a couple of bikes where I didn't really care what I got, I already felt I'd had the value. 
On this last point - Rohloff hubs seem to be one of the best examples of this and buck all the trends, I laugh at anyone who considers them expensive.  My original one came in a £1,100 bike, has done over 100,000 miles and I don't consider it owes me anything, yet I'd reasonably expect to get £500 for it on eBay

[mickeg]

If I was an ignorant buyer, I would not be shopping for a bike that is semi-custom.  I mean no offense here about buyers, but a buyer that does not know the different characteristics of different component manufacturers, etc., is more likely to buy something off the shelf that is new with warranty.

Buying an off-the-shelf model makes it easy to do an internet search and see what different reviewers wrote about major bike brands and models, etc.  Or see if any of their friends have that model and are they happy with it.  And a semi-custom bike that is sold with a choice of component groups is less likely to be appealing to such buyers, as it adds some uncertainty. 

And we have had a huge shift in bikes in past few years.  While the shift to disc brakes was occurring a decade ago, the more recent change to through axle that was occurring half a decade ago probably makes any bike that is not through axle less likely to sell to an ignorant buyer.  And a lot of knowledgeable buyers would see buying older tech like buying a car that has a clutch pedal.

I have never looked closely at the Audax, I am only talking generalities.

I built up most of my bikes myself.  I know that they would have minimal re-sale value and knew that when I built them up because I was not using a standardized component package.  I built them up with the components that I chose which means that my eccentricities were involved.

A year or two ago one of my neighbors that is a bike mechanic was admiring one of my bikes.  And I commented that the frame and fork were the last version of that model that was not through axle and had rim brakes.  He said that he wished he had bought up a few frames back then while they were still being made.  But, he would not be an average buyer, he could see the positive aspects of my bike - which was not for sale and won't be.

[tyreon]

In all things I am uncertain and undecided. Well,lots.

I think I'm half ignorant. Or,half educated.

I know some things about bicycles and quality,but never as much as some on here and other forums. Its complex. And then we all work fromwhat we want and what we want to spend and other complexities. I sorta hedge about the middle o most things. I know that other people toured on ordinary or 3 speed hubs. I guess the frames and fittings were much less in quality than something comparible today. Thus it is and as a would-be go slower,tourer(cos I dont think I could beat anyone road racing),I'd pitch myself somewhat midway on what bike I think I would purchase. Then I'd add a bit more quality and spend a few more £s,and that,I think would do me. Of course,in earlier years,I would have(and did)have,additional bikes for different cycling(as you would have different shoes as like in playing football or going to ballet). Still,older and even more slower,my cycling is reduced as is my mileage.

Nowadays I keep finding myself looking at Bromptons: tho I dont think I want one! That fold gets me every time. Oftentimes I find myself looking and comparing them on Gumtree: prices,location,model,spec. I sometimes rebuke myself for not purchasing one nearby. But then,I think it might fing it spends more time in my garage with my other bikes that,now,are under utilized.

I put it that the best sellers theseadys in the bike world are e bikes,or the gravel stuff. I dont really know. There is/was a discussion on Tom's Bikes: Is the touring bike slowly dying out. Havent had time to read it: could be interesting. My guess is the audax bike touring scene is pretty niche and small compared to all the other competing cycling that is going on out there. And,really,is there that much cycling being done 'ou there' anyways?

All yet another reason why selling a (good but) used thorn audax bike might be a long wait

[PH]

My guess is the audax bike touring scene is pretty niche and small compared to all the other competing cycling that is going on out there. And,really,is there that much cycling being done 'ou there' anyways?

I think there is a lot more leisure cycling going on than there was a decade or so ago, of all sorts, and the move away from copying the road racing pro's opens up all sorts of equipment opportunities for the willing buyers.  Some good, some bad, I appreciate the added choice.
Audax in particular has hugely increased in popularity, those events that used to struggle to get the entrants into double figures, are often now fully booked at 100+. It's changed along the way, the participants and their bikes, as has on many events the level of service and the entry fees to cover that.  The light steel tourer, what might have been called a Clubman's bike before Audax came to the UK, that used to make up 90% of the machines entered, is now in the minority. Among other factors, with such a choice of wide fast tyres not many people want to be restricted to the 28mm's deep drop caliper brakes dictate.

Nowadays I keep finding myself looking at Bromptons: tho I dont think I want one!

I never wanted one, then a couple of years ago I had a short work contract where the most practical commuting option across several sites was a Brompton and public transport, with occasional site to site trips by minibus.  I doubt it's done a hundred miles since the end of that contract, but all of those would have been trips awkward by any other means, I think every household should have a small folding bike. 

[tyreon]

I defer to your greater knowledge PH: and I do so with no sarcasm. Just because I no longer attned or attempt any audax riding theseadays I guess I presume no one else does,or few! Lots of times now I find out lottsa things I know little about or find myself in error. Me: "That coffee bar will shut down in within one year. No one wants to have a coffee in that place facing a car park" It later turns out that the coffee house(part ofa chain)is the most profitable coffee house with the cities  suburbs!

I dont know if you can ride an audax with an e bike,even if you can spot an e bike theseadays. My new olde friends are those about 80 going about 20 mph.

PC incorrect but...I thought modern man would now be expected to put in more hours doing household chores and having family-time as was was in the olden times,wherein the men went out all day doing their own thing whilst the ladies stayed indoors.  Times change. As do bikes,I guess

[Pavel]

I consider any Thorn bike purchase, or a Thorn frame-set purchase to be permanent buys.  I will never get a fair price for either were I deluded enough to try to sell.
But I knew that going in - and am fine with that.
to look on the bright side of things, consider however how much better the resale value is - compared to used condoms. 

[martinf]

I consider any Thorn bike purchase, or a Thorn frame-set purchase to be permanent buys.  I will never get a fair price for either were I deluded enough to try to sell.

With lots of things, if you buy something new it's value drops by a very large percentage even if you sell it straight away.

There are temporary and (more or less ) permanent exceptions.

Temporary - at the moment, recent used Canon compact cameras (SX 620 and SX 740) are selling for fairly near the new price, because they have been unavailable new for several months. The same goes (at least here in France) for certain models of (recent) used cars.

Permanent - Rohloff hubs seem to sell for very good prices, even after several years. And Brompton folders also sell for high prices, and have done since at least 2009, when I sold a well-used 2003 model to part-finance a new one.

I can pick up a decent usable second-hand bicycle here for about 50 euros. And have done that twice recently, when I needed to replace the frames on my wife's main bike and the small visitor bike. But as I wanted old steel frames with hooked dropouts so I could fit hub gears and Chaingliders I had to wait a while until suitable bikes were advertised locally, the majority of adverts are for fairly recent mountain bikes or road bikes, including a lot of Audax style (road bikes with mudguards and fairly narrow tyres).     

[PH]

I've done a bit of buying and selling since this thread started (N-3 +1) my experience has largely matched my opinion above:
Sold on Ebay, Surly Ogre frameset, two years old, used one year for Deliveroo so a good few marks and scratches but no real damage, honestly described with lots of detailed photos, bid was about 60% of what it cost, though obviously Ebay had a slice, happy with that, probably influenced by the price having increased and they're currently hard to find in stock.
Sold Facebook, my Hewitt Cheviot frameset, almost immaculate from a respray a few years ago.  Didn't think it was going to sell, then three people wanted it in the same week! £150 didn't seem a lot, but it's an 18yo frame and I've had more than my monies worth.
Mercury damaged repainted frame and new Thorn fork. Advertised lots of places and sold via a forum, because of the bikes history I wanted to sell face to face with the buyer rather than an internet stranger. There was no interest over a couple of months as a complete bike with Alfine, a couple of enquiries for the  frameset, just about made back the money I'd spent on the fork and respray, still glad I did that rather than scrapping it.
The Hewitt had lots of bling parts, Paul Components brakes, Nitto bars, Campag bits... those all sold well, I got more from stripping it than if I'd sold complete, goes back to my earlier point that enthusiasts like to pick their own components.  Only disappointing sale was some quality Audax wheels,  only a couple of hundred miles and they fetched less than the cost of the rims and it took three goes at Ebay to get that.

With the exception of the bling and wheels I'd adorned the Hewitt with, I'd already had my value out of these bikes and bits, what I got for the sale was a bonus.
What sometimes makes me sad is when I see a bike advertised at a fraction of the purchase price, when it's only done a few hundred miles. Good news for the buyer of course, but in some way, for some reason, the original owner probably hasn't fulfilled what they'd hoped to.

[mickeg]

I consider any Thorn bike purchase, or a Thorn frame-set purchase to be permanent buys.  I will never get a fair price for either were I deluded enough to try to sell.
But I knew that going in - and am fine with that.
...

100 percent agree. 

I am in USA, Thorns are virtually unheard of here.  Thus, the brand name does not have any reputation, either good or bad. 

Even a non-Thorn that is from a well known brand here, a used bike will lose a third of the value the minute it leaves the store, and that is before it gets any dirt on it.

[Moronic]

All this makes me more impressed with what Thorn has achieved in selling their amazing bikes new.

Still in love with my Mercury. When it goes, it will be because I am past riding and it will go to a friend of a friend who is just my size and at least kind of gets it.

Or it will go for a song with the rest of my estate. A$6500 and I feel like I have got the price out of it in value already, just for the understanding it has brought me of what is possible.

The fascinating reality is, even I expected only half as much when I ordered it. How is a used buyer to understand what's on offer? Modern economic theory makes at leadt an attempt to recognise that markets operate on information that is imperfect, but I think it is a long way from recognising just how imperfect.

As for reviews ... I still laugh inwardly now and again when I recall the review I read of the 853 Reynolds Niner gravel bike, where the reviewer saif that it rode nicely but when he went to climb it was like he had hit a wall. So he handed it back and paid hismown money for the carbon version, which was a good kilo lighter.  And just as Andy B proposed in the Megabrochure, Niner had a sticker attesting only to the steel in the main triangle. Niner is adding a few dollars to profits on the belief that most buyers won't inquire what the rest of the frame has been built from. And sadly or wisely, that is likely a very good bet. When I get out on my Thorn, I always feel very privileged.

None of which helps sell a vintage Thorn Audax. Skinny tyres are no longer the thing. Who'd have thought it.

[tyreon]

Did it ever sell?

https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?t=153250

In the past I have bought more new bikes than used,but now I see many used bikes at more than less half retail price not selling. Confusing and interesting.

I am still in the biz of trying to sell two of my bought-from-new but now used-but-looking-good bikes for far-less-than-purchased-prices: no takers. Of course,advertised for for-a-song,scrap metal prices might shift them. There's something wrong in the market,but age might have made something wrong with me. Times change. Where are all the young men(or women)who want to go touring hereabouts in Europe(or across the world),and can pick up a bike that will do the job for a third(maybe less)than a new bike would cost them and uses new technology that no local Turkish village blacksmith of cycle repair man will fix in five(minutes)?

Cant understand it all

I think I am losing it I used to read all about travellers setting out and accomplishing goals on three-speeders(steel rimmed?). I think they used to have one arm or one leg(I might be making this up ),but now its all £4k or more. Have our youth gone soft? I was never hard: no steel backbone,probably weak alloy.

Casual looking, it seems that any new bike must lose 80%,even more of its price before an interested party makes an offer. I dont go down to any tips,but I expect many decent bicycles to be dumped at them. Curiously tho,when you look on passing at second hand bicycle shops I have never ever seen any bike of any quality being sold. And those that are for sale seem as...junk(?)

Does the above make sense?

[in4]

Hmm. I guess there are a quite a few reasons for the status quo, as you see it.
Might be a change in demand/price/popularity. Ebikes are in the mix too.
FWIW. My first two Thorns were SH and great value. Both sold on for fair prices too. Both touring bikes so maybe a bit niche. My current Nomad is staying  but with belt drives becoming more available and arguably robust and almost maintenance free well…