Velocity deep v rims

[ourclarioncall]

I took note of these rims when reading a forum post from 2011 and wanted to know more about them . Anyone used them or recommend them? Do they still exist

Velocity deep v rims

Thick walls , big cross section

“ they are so stupendously stiff that the spokes have to do very little work to keep the wheel true. Peter White considers them the strongest rims available“

He mentions brick lane cycles uk

[PH]

Yes they still exist, you know where to look, you just posted it 
I expect all wheel builders have their favorites, what was the context?  The Deep V is a bit sporty for full on touring, it's not going to take a very wide tyre.  The Velocity rim that's usually mentioned in the context of touring is the Cliff Hanger, I almost bought a pair of these a couple of years ago, but there's rims more easily available in the UK, for half the price, that look on paper to be their equal.

[mickeg]

Not sure why you would want such a narrow rim.
https://www.velocityusa.com/product/rims/deep-v-622

I use the Dyad on my light touring bike, I wanted to be able to run tires in the 28 to 37mm width.
https://www.velocityusa.com/product/rims/dyad-622

If you want to use Velocity, I suggest you decide first what tire widths you want.
https://www.velocityusa.com/tech/rims/

Some of their rims are designed for tubeless, you might first want to think about whether or not you want to use tubeless or not.  It is easier to get a tire off of a rim if you are running tubes on a tube type rim.  I have not tried to get a tube tire off of a tubeless rim, but I hear that it is more difficult.

[ourclarioncall]

The discussion was about  “Very strong 48h 700c rims “ for touring

Then folk recommended 26” instead as it would be easier to get replacement parts

17 stone guy said 36h Sputniks stood up to the task

Other mentioned that there is no need for 48h and 36h was enough , unless going on a very long tour and wanting extra insurance

Then velocity rims were mentioned . I’m now guessing that that was a recommendation for 700c not 26” ?

[mickeg]

Some people say that a 26 inch wheel is much stronger than 700c.  I suspect it is slightly stronger, but not by much.

A decade or more ago, 700c tires that were much wider than 37mm were rare in bike shops, but wider 26 inch tires and therefore wider 26 inch rims were easier to find.  Thus at that time maybe the 26 inch rims were much stronger because they were also wider?

And I have not seen a 26 inch wheel that had a hub spacing less than 135mm in quite a few decades.  My errand bike is a 1994 and it has a 135mm rear hub.  But a lot of 700c wheels are still 130mm, which has more dish.

Co-Motion in Western USA makes solo touring bikes and tandems.  They make a solo touring model called the Americano that uses tandem strength wheels.  I recall riding behind a guy that had one with derailleurs.  It took a while for me to figure out why his bike looked so odd, the 145mm rear hub spacing was undished.  I think his wheel was 40 spokes.  I was not used to seeing a bike in front of me for several miles riding on the highway with an undished wheel before.

An undished wheel is a lot stronger than a dished wheel because the spoke tension is the same on both sides.  I think that is more important than adding some more spokes.  Rohloff wheels are undished too.

Modern rims, hubs and spokes are pretty strong.  For a solo touring bike, I think 36 is good enough.  I have only broken spokes on a 1960s vintage wheel, I have never broken a spoke or damaged a rim on a wheel that I built.  I built the wheels on my touring bikes.  They are all 36 spoke except the front wheel is 32 on my light touring bike, while the rear on that bike is 36.

But, 32 spoke is becoming more common, even on touring bikes.  They are cheaper to build and manufacturers can advertise that they are a hair lighter.  Thus, if you are looking for a replacement rim later, you might have trouble finding a 36, as 32 will be more common.

Why did I use 32 spokes front and 36 spokes rear on my light touring bike?  Two simple reasons.  I decided there is a lot less weight on the front wheel and 32 would be enough.  And the specific dynohub I wanted was in very short supply in 36 at that time, but 32 were common, I found a 32 on sale for about $40 USD cheaper than the 36.

[martinf]

Other mentioned that there is no need for 48h and 36h was enough , unless going on a very long tour and wanting extra insurance

36H, even on dished derailleur bike wheels, has been enough for me, even on the tandem I once had. This had a typical all up weight of about 150 Kg including the riders, bike and light luggage.

On my 2011 tour to Spain the 36H dished rear wheel coped with an all up weight that varied between 109 and 123 Kg, I was mostly using roads and reasonably good paths, but including a few sections of rocky tracks.

For unloaded/lightly loaded rides on good roads on my lightweight with a dished rear wheel I had no problems with 28 spokes front and rear. In this use the all up weight varied between 90 and 105 Kg. I recently replaced the derailleur hub with a gear hub, re-using the same 28H rim, this wheel should be stronger as it has virtually no dish.

[hendrich]

This depends on total weight. Our older tandem initially had 40 hole wheels. Spoke breakage on drive side was a problem until we switched to 48 holes/Dyad rim on rear. Some 100,000 miles later, never a spoke break with typically 220 kg on tour. For single, certainly can do less, but again depends on weight. On a dished wheel I would go for at least 36, no reason to bother with less because on tour I don't care to fiddle with wheels.

[PH]

The discussion was about  “Very strong 48h 700c rims “ for touring

Well I wasn't in the conversation, but it would IMO be a pretty poor choice for a touring rim.  If you were going to tour on the rim's maximum 28mm tyre size it's going to need to be stronger than a rim used with a 32+.

[ourclarioncall]

Some people say that a 26 inch wheel is much stronger than 700c.  I suspect it is slightly stronger, but not by much.

A decade or more ago, 700c tires that were much wider than 37mm were rare in bike shops, but wider 26 inch tires and therefore wider 26 inch rims were easier to find.  Thus at that time maybe the 26 inch rims were much stronger because they were also wider?

And I have not seen a 26 inch wheel that had a hub spacing less than 135mm in quite a few decades.  My errand bike is a 1994 and it has a 135mm rear hub.  But a lot of 700c wheels are still 130mm, which has more dish.

Co-Motion in Western USA makes solo touring bikes and tandems.  They make a solo touring model called the Americano that uses tandem strength wheels.  I recall riding behind a guy that had one with derailleurs.  It took a while for me to figure out why his bike looked so odd, the 145mm rear hub spacing was undished.  I think his wheel was 40 spokes.  I was not used to seeing a bike in front of me for several miles riding on the highway with an undished wheel before.

An undished wheel is a lot stronger than a dished wheel because the spoke tension is the same on both sides.  I think that is more important than adding some more spokes.  Rohloff wheels are undished too.

Modern rims, hubs and spokes are pretty strong.  For a solo touring bike, I think 36 is good enough.  I have only broken spokes on a 1960s vintage wheel, I have never broken a spoke or damaged a rim on a wheel that I built.  I built the wheels on my touring bikes.  They are all 36 spoke except the front wheel is 32 on my light touring bike, while the rear on that bike is 36.

But, 32 spoke is becoming more common, even on touring bikes.  They are cheaper to build and manufacturers can advertise that they are a hair lighter.  Thus, if you are looking for a replacement rim later, you might have trouble finding a 36, as 32 will be more common.

Why did I use 32 spokes front and 36 spokes rear on my light touring bike?  Two simple reasons.  I decided there is a lot less weight on the front wheel and 32 would be enough.  And the specific dynohub I wanted was in very short supply in 36 at that time, but 32 were common, I found a 32 on sale for about $40 USD cheaper than the 36.

So do all tandem derailleur bikes have undished wheels ?

Is a tandem wheel simply a rim with more spokes? Or is it wider like an Andra 40? I guess the hub has to match the number of spokes

I know it’s totally overkill but I’ve been looking at getting 48hole CSS rims . Mainly because I’ve always wanted CSS rims and they are the only ones I can find online . Son make a 48hole tandem hub so I think that would be fine with the rim

But the thought of extra strength and bombproofness appeals to me. Saying that , I am almost 17 stone so I like the thought of a super strong rim. I don’t really care about weight . I’m not going to be going very fast especially when loaded up.

But now you’ve got me intrigued about undisged wheels . I knew with a Rohloff it would’ve insisted vut don’t understand how it can be undished with a derailleur on the bike you mentioned 🤔

[ourclarioncall]

Okay I see what you mean now in this video

https://youtu.be/2APGsZI4P2k

So have they just widened the chain stays or is the hub ? I searched their website but could see any info . It just tells you the rims and the hub which Im wondering is maybe their own model as couldn’t find it online

Basically I’m wondering if I could recreate this undished setup or is it only available on their bike

[martinf]

So do all tandem derailleur bikes have undished wheels ?

No. It depends on the frame. Either the rear dropout spacing has to be wider than a solo or the dropouts have to be assymetric in order to have an undished rear wheel with derailleur gears. Tandems were often spaced wider than solos at the rear to accommodate an extra drum or disk brake.

Is a tandem wheel simply a rim with more spokes? Or is it wider like an Andra 40? I guess the hub has to match the number of spokes

Again not necessarily. There are light tandem wheels and super-heavy duty tandem wheels and various nuances in between. But unless you want to try an esoteric spoking arrangement, the hub has to match the number of spokes.

On my tandem, the front hub was spaced 100 mm and was pretty standard. The rear wheel was spaced about 135 mm (wide for the time, when 5-speed freewheel blocks were the norm). This was because it incorporated a large drum brake in addition to the cantilever brakes front and rear. I upgraded the rims to Mavic 4, which were wide for the 1980's, but much narrower than some current rims, such as the Andra 40. 

I know it’s totally overkill but I’ve been looking at getting 48hole CSS rims . Mainly because I’ve always wanted CSS rims and they are the only ones I can find online . Son make a 48hole tandem hub so I think that would be fine with the rim

But the thought of extra strength and bombproofness appeals to me. Saying that , I am almost 17 stone so I like the thought of a super strong rim. I don’t really care about weight . I’m not going to be going very fast especially when loaded up.

I do think 48 hole is overkill on a solo bike. Well-built 36 hole front and rear wheels with fairly wide rims and 50 mm or wider tyres should be sufficient even for 17 stone with luggage. 17 stone is about 108 Kg, adding 20 kg of luggage, which is a lot unless you are doing real expedition touring, makes a weight of 128 Kg. With the weight of the bike itself, say about 20 Kg, that makes a total all up weight of 148 Kg, so about the same as the tandem that I used in the 1980's. And unless you are a very powerful rider, you aren't going to be putting in any more power than the combined power of myself and my wife when we were both young and fit.

A non-standard 48 hole wheel will be difficult to replace on tour if it does break, which might be more likely because the holes on the hub flange are closer. I once had a 36 hole hub crack at the flange during a long tour after crashing a loaded touring bike on an icy concrete cycle path about 500 kms from home. I was lucky, the wheel finally collapsed less than a km from home when a section of flange with 3 spokes broke away from the rest of the hub, so I only had to push for a short distance.

And you can always risk having a rim break by hitting a large pothole at speed. 36 hole will be much easier to find if you do break something.

CSS has gone out of fashion. So, although I have them on my Raven Tour, I wouldn't consider getting CSS rims now, as the special brake pads are getting hard to find.

[steve216c]

But the thought of extra strength and bombproofness appeals to me. Saying that , I am almost 17 stone so I like the thought of a super strong rim. I don’t really care about weight . I’m not going to be going very fast especially when loaded up.

At my peak around 3 years ago, I was almost 20 stone. At around 19 stone I got myself riding again on a 26“ and a 28“ bike both with Rigida/Ryde Zac 19 rims. Both bikes had been in use regularly at a time I was about your weight.

Most of my rim breakages were worn out rim after 10,000km plus use on flanks rather than other damage, although I did have to repair the occasional snapped spoke which would require re-truing of wheel.

Since buying current bike, combined with healthier eating, I’ve been under 15 stone for about 2 years. I was sceptical about lower spike count and definitely wanted stronger rim, and plumped for Andra 30 rims as the 40 were not right for my frame. The Andra rims (non CSS) are self builds, and so far approx 5-7000km ridden without problems. I’m sure over the same distance on my Zac19 wheels I would have suffered a spoke break or a slight buckle in that distance, but all good on the Andras. I was sceptical that 32 spoke wheels would be up to the job given my weight, but I have been pleasantly surprised.

If you are not riding a Rohloff, I’d suggest sticking with standard 36 hole rims which are cheap and plentiful. There has been enough written on Andra rims suggesting they are truly rugged and reliable. CSS is going to be hard to source unless Ryde decided to do a run of these. But with 10,000km or more on a non CSS rim, unless you are planning a world tour, these should see you good for a long time with replacement rims quite affordable and available as well as a huge range of off the shelf compatible hubs in every bike shop.

From personal experience as a heavier rider, you don’t need to go to extreme non-Standard purchases to find a stable set of wheels. A decent Andra rim on a 32 or 36 hole hub might be enough for you. And if the bike helps you shed a pound or three, that wheel investment will quickly make itself felt.

[mickeg]

Okay I see what you mean now in this video

https://youtu.be/2APGsZI4P2k

So have they just widened the chain stays or is the hub ? I searched their website but could see any info . It just tells you the rims and the hub which Im wondering is maybe their own model as couldn’t find it online

Basically I’m wondering if I could recreate this undished setup or is it only available on their bike

The Americano is the only solo touring bike I am aware of that uses tandem wheels with 145mm rear dropout spacing.  There could be others, but I am not aware of any.

You can buy rims that have the spokes offset to one side to make the wheel undished or reduce the dish.  But I do not recall ever seeing one on a 135mm hub, as you typically have a bigger problem with a 130mm rear wheel as that has a bigger difference in spoke tension between drive and non-drive side spokes. 

I think you need to go ride your bike.  Then decide if your bike is lacking based on how the bike performs.  And if it is lacking, then be sufficiently clear on what the problem or failure was.

[PH]

I'm around 93kg and I've never broken a well built wheel (Or even those I've build myself  ) other than occasional crash damage which wouldn't have been avoided by more spokes or less dishing.  Even then, it has to be a side impact to cause damage, the front wheel on Mercury I rode into the back of a car and bent the forks on is still round and true, though the hub isn't healthy.
You don't need any other wheels.

[ourclarioncall]

Thanks chaps , some good food for thought

I believe the wheels I have now are probably all I need . But a minor and couple of major issues are that I want a dynamo hub and will have to get a new wheel built for that

Also I’ve pondered a long time the type of braking system I want . After considering the pros and cons ,CSS rims are still my preferred option . If they were available at a sensible price in 32h or 36h then I would have been happy with that but I’m too late to the party ! There is one place in Europe that sells them for extortionate prices which I’m not willing to pay. That only leaves one option which is the 48h that sjs have in stock

The minor thing is my current wheels are a little out of true. I had a go truing them last night with a spoke wrench and think I got a little improvement but I guess I would need better tools or take it to my LBS and pay them to do it. How close to true they could get a rim/spokes that may be 20 years old I don’t know . The tool I got from Halfords seemed ok but there were times it was just spinning and not taking a proper hold of the spoke to turn it. Softer metal ? Or the spoke tolerances vary ? Or just a very tight spoke? Do get spoke wrenches made from steel or something harder?

I think if I’m ever going to seriously use this bike then I want the foundation to be right from the start. A Brand new set of wheels and tyres . Then I can monitor from day one how the wheel has responded over time to my loaded and unloaded weight/my riding style  /the terrain I’ve ridden over etc.