dirty oil

[hendrich]

I changed the oil today in my rohloff, which I do yearly. As before, the stuff that comes out with the cleaning fluid is black and appears very dirty. I follow the 2 flush method, splitting the 25 mL cleaning fluid in half and doing twice. Rohloff says 25 mL is good, but I am sorely tempted to use 50 mL of cleaning fluid for each oil change. On the other hand, I could go crazy and flush with my whole 250 mL bottle, but there would still likely be some dirt coming out. Does anyone use more than 25 mL cleaning fluid?

[julk]

My first Rohloff hub was a bit notchy on gear changes at first.
SJSC recommended a double flush for the first couple of oil changes to get any swarf out.
The hub did get smoother at changing, but then the bike got stolen.

The replacement bike’s hub was smooth from day 1 so I no longer do double flushes.
But if you think the hub benefits from them then continue the practice.
Julian

[hendrich]

"swarf"...I learned a new word, thanks. I have experience in machining, but never heard "swarf" always called them turnings.

[Andre Jute]

It seems to me "swarf" is too established a word to be called techie slang. I can remember hearing it used as far back as the 1960s by elderly craftsmen, long-since time-served artisans, as a collective noun for tiny slivers of steel knocked off gears as they gather in the sump, and other collections of shavings of metal attendant on metalwork. There's even a craftsmen's hand cleaner called Swarfega, presumably with some (long-forgotten?) connection.

[JohnR]

My inclination is to make the oil changes more frequent rather than do double-flushing. The first three oil changes for my Mercury's Rohloff hub have average 75% of the recommended interval although there's an element of chance in that as I aim to do the changes when the weather is warm and the oil flows more freely. I wouldn't be wanting completely clean oil as having some fine metallic dust in the oil in the hub probably helps with the final polishing of the gear surfaces.

[PH]

Do whatever makes you happy, I've never seen a report that not doing an oil change better caused an issue, I suspect the requirement for annual or 3,000 miles is already on the cautious side.

Here's what makes me happy:
Flush with 25ml
If it looks dirty flush again with another 25ml
Insert 25ml Oil
Go for a ride
Remove 15ml

Mileages on my hubs are
103,000 (96,000 recorded, 7,000 a very conservative guess for the rest)
48,000 (Though only 7,000 of those by me)
11,000 for the baby of the group

All three had a couple of early oil changes when new, then the regular annual/3,000 mile routine, though I'm not fussed about +/- a month or a few miles.
No problems so far.

I'd also note that the oil has changed over the years, the stuff I bought with the bike in 2003 went in looking dirty! Plus you had to shake it up as it partly separated.

[Andre Jute]

Discussion of advanced oil change practices in "Power-servicing your Rohloff" found at http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=13327.0.

[steve216c]

Hi Hendrich,

I haven't double cleaned my hub.... so far... but with the price of Rohloff oil, it is an expensive extra expense, unless you purchased bulk oil at a great price. I suspect most Rohloff owners buy the single oil change kit- although I have no facts to support that.

When I purchased my (non-Thorn) Rohloff bike 2nd hand 2 years ago, I change the oil within a couple of weeks of getting the bike. The previous owner wasn't really certain on when and how many km previous change had been. And that was the messiest oil I've extracted. Since then, more than 10,000km and 2 further oil changes the oil was a grayish hue, but not almost black like on my very first flush.

When I started looking at the price of Rohloff oil, I was tempted at trying out the 'alternative' non Rohloff oil change as described here http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?PHPSESSID=jtiok3hgt6vh93mj25rr4dto32&topic=12554.0 but then I was able to source a 'party-sized' pair of 1 liter original hub/cleaning oil @ EUR 44/ bottle. Even better, a friend of mine paid half, on the condition that I help him with his oil changes, which he had previously paid a bike shop to do.

BUT- if you are going through the cleaning oil a bit quicker by double flushing- you might want to consider mixing your own drinks if the flushing oil is eating into the budget. Using 1 part Rohloff oil to 7 to 8  parts white spirit could be a cheaper way to create a hub oil-flush should you feel the need to clean it with more than the standard volume of flushing oil.

No money back- no guarantee and I have NOT tried this, although I would probably have done had I not sourced my original oil so cheaply.

[mickeg]

I would not put any trust in that Crazy Guy posting on their analysis of the oil.

The only parameter on that lab report that I think is applicable is viscosity.  I have been retired for over a decade now, and with a job change two decades ago, I have not looked at any laboratory analysis of petroleum products in that much time.  But suffice it to say that a hand written note stating that it was similar to a Mobil product or similar to adding two different petroleum products together is simply a comment made by a lab tech without much basis.

I have no expertise in Rohloff lube, other than having read that some oils can cause some problems in the hub because some oils contain compounds that can damage something in the hub.  But that was years ago when I read that and I do not recall what those problems were.  At the cost of the hub, I am quite content to still be using oil from my Rohloff 250ml bottles that I bought several years ago.

Comments number 8 and 10 on the crazy guy posting were by me. 

I do not think a double flush is necessary.  But if you really want to do that, go ahead.  And if you then get concerned about consuming your cleaning oil faster than you are consuming lube oil, perhaps do one of your double flushes with half cleaning and half lube oils? 

It was several years ago when I bought my 250ml bottles.  Price has gone up some since then.  I think price for where you buy depends a lot on where you live.  Cost of shipping can vary a lot. 

UK
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/tools/rohloff-all-seasons-cleaning-oil-speedhub-oil-twin-pack-2-x-250-ml-bottle-for-speedhub-50014-8409/

EU (several sellers, this is where I bought my hub and oil)
https://www.bike24.com/p2406748.html

In USA Cycle Monkey used to charge over $100 USD for the 250ml bottles, but now they no longer list it on their website.  And I do not see that size bottles on Amazon either.  I looked at Co-Motion, they only sell the single change sized bottles too.  But, all sellers in USA that sell anything to do with Rohloff mark up the prices so much, even with the high shipping costs you often are better off ordering from a seller in Europe or maybe post-Brexit UK.

[Andre Jute]

In any event, the Rohloff oil is formulated as it is, and we pay for it whatever Rohloff has to charge (not a lot in relation to the cost of a new gearbox), because anything else may attack the seals in a Rohloff gearbox which are much lighter and of much less sturdy materials than in non-cycling gearboxes -- go beat on a weight weenie, it wasn't me whispering in Herr Rohloff's ear about reducing the weight. This idea of adding white spirit to the cleaning oil/extreme winter oil is crazy, and should come with a bond that those who spread it will pay for the gullible owner's Rohloff to be sent to SJS (if they'll even take it after such abuse) or Germany to be torn down and have new seals fitted.

[PH]

Oil price is only expensive if you're buying single shots or drinking it 
Previously I bought the litre size and shared it, I don't think it's a coincidence that the 250ml size is priced just enough to make that not worth the bother.  My original oil changes worked out at under £2, current ones from the 250ml stock are £4.50
Current SJS prices for 25ml of both:
£3.00 if bought in 1 ltr bottles, that's £60 a litre
£4.60 if bought in 250ml bottles, that's £90 a litre
£13.00 for a single shot, that's £260 a litre   

The last one sounds a lot, but it's still only £13 year.  Advantage for me of having bigger bottles, isn't just the saving but the convenience of having it ready, I might decide to change it early before a tour, or straight after it's been accidentally submerged, or just because it's about due and I have some free time.

[PH]

This idea of adding white spirit to the cleaning oil/extreme winter oil is crazy

I thought so too, when it came up elsewhere it was pointed out that White Spirit isn't even a standardised thing, there's three main types and variations within them.
OTOH - I've been dipping Alfine and Nexus hubs into automatic gearbox oil for years, based on something I read on the internet, and they run smooth, but it wouldn't have made me cry if that hadn't worked and the oil was a tenner instead of £60 for the Shimano stuff.

[mickeg]

The single oil change kit includes syringe, spare plug, etc.  So, it is worth getting one or maybe two of those if you are a new owner.

I re-use the plug screws.  Dave W (formerly of SJS) commented that the Locktite helped prevent dissimilar metal corrosion, so I put thread locker on my drain screws.  Dave also commented that you need a special threadlocker that does not dissolve in oils, but I never bothered to buy that.

I have mentioned this before, will repeat it here.  When I have flown on a plane, I had a lot of oil leakage after the flight.  I suspect either the orientation of the hub which I suspect was on the side with non-drive side down and also air pressure fluctuations during the flight.  For that reason, if I planned to do an oil change before a trip, I will drain and flush the hub, but I fly with it without oil.  I then add the oil upon my arrival.

[martinf]

This idea of adding white spirit to the cleaning oil/extreme winter oil is crazy

I thought so too, when it came up elsewhere it was pointed out that White Spirit isn't even a standardised thing, there's three main types and variations within them.
OTOH - I've been dipping Alfine and Nexus hubs into automatic gearbox oil for years, based on something I read on the internet, and they run smooth, but it wouldn't have made me cry if that hadn't worked and the oil was a tenner instead of £60 for the Shimano stuff.

I use Rohloff oil for my Rohloff hubs, reckoning that it wasn't worth skimping on the cost of the oil for expensive hubs.

I bought a couple of kits to get some spare syringes and tubes, then 250 ml bottles of the cleaning and lubricating oils. And after I finished the 250 ml bottles, I bought litre bottles.

I also now use Rohloff oil in my few remaining Sturmey-Archer hubs. In the Sturmey hubs I use a few drops per hub per month, my last 125 ml bottle of Sturmey-Archer oil lasted for over 5 years, so I decided that with the bulk Rohloff oil available it wasn't worth the bother looking for a cheaper substitute.

I also bought a bulk pack of the Rohloff drain plugs (20 ?), which I also use on the Shimano Nexus 8 premium hubs fitted to six family bikes. On the Rohloff hubs I generally fit new ones at each oil change, the Shimanos get the used ones.

For the Shimano hubs I use a synthetic gear box oil, easy to find in relatively cheap 1 litre bottles at local motor supply shops.

My logic here is that the official Shimano dunking oil kit costs about as much as I paid for each hub (about 70-80 euros, I bought several when they were available at discount prices at SJS Cycles), and that I have already invalidated any guarantee by drilling the shell for a drain plug and using outboard-motor grease to reinforce the weather resistance in the two accessible outer bearings.

I started using this synthetic oil in 2012, and so far I have not had any problems, so it probably doesn't damage the plastic parts inside the Shimano hubs. My opinion is that using oil instead of the factory-supplied grease increases the efficiency of these hubs. The drain plug allows me to "top up" the oil to replace seepage through the seals, which is slightly more than the seepage with Rohloffs but still fairly minimal, and so increase the interval between opening the hub for inspection, oil bath and regreasing the outer bearings, which I generally do about every two years or so.

[mickeg]

I have a Sram Dual Drive hub, I have never opened it and have no intention of doing so.  It is on my folding bike, works great.  Occasionally I drip a few drops of oil into the drive side hollow axle where the shifter rod threads into it, that is all.  For those of you that are not familiar with the hub, it is a three speed hub like a Sturmey Archer, but it can take a Sram or Shimano 8 or 9 speed cassette.  I can't fit a front derailleur to my folding bike so this is how I expanded the gearing range.

Decades ago I bought a used three speed bike, had a Sturmey Archer hub with drum brake.  The previous owner had oiled it enough that oil had gotten into the brake linings.  When I bought it, the seller also gave me an incomplete bike that was the same but with a women's frame.  Later I stripped the parts off of the women's frame bike and discarded the frame, keeping the parts and wheels.  When I could not buy tires for that men's frame bike in the late 1980s, the bike and spare parts went into storage. 

Now that it is easy to buy 650b tires again, earlier this year I put some tires on the "spare" wheels that came off of the women's frame bike onto the men's frame and have used it some for errands.  Apparantly nobody had put excess oil into that hub.  The brake works fine, the linings appear to have no oil contamination.

But, I would be nervous about adding any lube to the rear hub.  Since my errands on that bike are typically less than five miles (~8 km) round trip, the bike gets very little wear on it.  Date code on the hub is 1966.

Thus, of my fleet of three IGH bikes, the Rohloff is the only one that actually gets a regular lube job.

..... On the Rohloff hubs I generally fit new ones at each oil change, the Shimanos get the used ones.
.....

Great quote.