Author Topic: Cycle2Charge charging unit  (Read 43252 times)

PhilD28

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 49
Re: Cycle2Charge charging unit
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2020, 09:54:10 AM »
Thanks for the quick reply. Are you still finding the unit to be a good solution?

I'm currently using a Luxos U to charge a larger cache battery from my Son 28 and running my Garmin on it's internal battery then re charging from the cache battery.
While not ideal, it deals with the constant cut in and out as the small cache battery in the luxos depletes when charging the Garmin or my iphone direct when in hilly terrain.
I'm looking for a better solution for my annual 3 month tour in Europe.
thanks
Phil

silverdorking

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 42
Re: Cycle2Charge charging unit
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2020, 10:19:21 AM »
Lamentable I know but currently untested, awaiting opportunity to get son28 hub built up so afraid can't comment.
I can say that stem fitting is a piece of cake and uses star fangled nut rather than expander unit, employed by Cinq I will further inform once running dynamo wheel.

mickeg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2801
Re: Cycle2Charge charging unit
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2020, 01:50:17 PM »
...
I'm currently using a Luxos U to charge a larger cache battery from my Son 28 and running my Garmin on it's internal battery then re charging from the cache battery.
While not ideal, it deals with the constant cut in and out as the small cache battery in the luxos depletes when charging the Garmin or my iphone direct when in hilly terrain....

I have also found the Luxos U internal pass through cache battery to deplete when charging some devices.  It appears that the electronics in the Luxos U allows the device you are charging to draw power out of the battery faster than the electronics that recharge that same battery from the AC output from the hub.

I do not use the Luxos U for bike touring, only use it for riding near home.

« Last Edit: January 28, 2020, 07:00:30 PM by mickeg »

PhilD28

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 49
Re: Cycle2Charge charging unit
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2020, 03:47:27 PM »
Yes the Luxos U is a good solution up to a point and I've made mine work for 3 x 3month tours, so 9 months total to date, but only by using it to charge a 6000 mAh cache battery, which it does ok. I would like a better solution but there are quite a few options now so it gets difficult choosing a decent cost effective system,
I'd like to keep the Luxos U as it's a great light, so something that plays nice with it's existing cache would be my favoured solution.

mickeg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2801
Re: Cycle2Charge charging unit
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2020, 06:39:53 PM »
On a recent thread I posted a link which is a google translate version of a German publication that has some good data on USB chargers that draw power from a dynohub, but the article is a few years old, does not have data on the Cycle2Charge.  And this link is to Figure 13 in that article, shows watt output at varying speeds:
https://fahrradzukunft.de/bilder/21/steckdose-unterwegs-4/13.gross.png

From that graph, the highest performing charger is the Forumslader V5, puts out a bit under 2 watts at 10 km/hr and a bit over 5 watts at 20 km/hr.

This graph is from the Cycle2Charge website:
http://www.cycle2charge.de/images/Bilder/Leistungsvergleich-eng_V3.JPG

From the graph, it looks like the Cycle2Charge Version 3 puts out a bit over 2 watts at 11 km/hr.  And about 4.8 watts at 20 km/hr.

Those two chargers appear to have comparable performance curves at speeds between 11 and 25 km/hr, which is the speed most people tour at most of the time that they are not hill climbing or descending.

That is very impressive output, certainly beats my Sinewave Revolution that is also shown on the first graph.

On a different forum someone used a Forumslader on a bike tour and commented that his bike felt slower when the charger was producing a high amount of power into his power bank, but he only spent part of each day charging the power bank. 

I however have never felt any resistance from my use of a dynohub and USB charger or with a dyno powered light, but my charger put out less power.  I often leave my light on when riding in daytime because I do not feel that there is any additional resistance.

That said, I would not be surprised if the Cycle2Charge could cause noticeable drag when it is putting out higher output rates considering that some have felt the drag from a Forumslader.

I did not post the graphs, instead provided the links, I do not know if posting the graphs would have violated copyright laws or not.

Now I have to decide if my Sinewave Revolution will still meet my needs or if I will need an upgrade.

***

Appendix:

The Figure 13 I cited above was from this link:
https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=de&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=https://fahrradzukunft.de/21/steckdose-unterwegs-4/&xid=17259,15700021,15700186,15700190,15700256,15700259,15700262,15700265,15700271,15700301&usg=ALkJrhinkvnrcxwGc8xhEoE9-pzKuWjO5A

Cycle2Charge website at:
http://www.cycle2charge.de/index.php/en/

mickeg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2801
Re: Cycle2Charge charging unit
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2020, 06:45:21 PM »
I was still trying to figure out if I wanted to give the Cycle2Charge a try. 

The high output rating looks good.  Not sure about the level of waterproofing.

Their website lists shipping cost to USA at 30 Euros. 

I was quite interested until I saw the cost of shipping, total cost of the charger with shipping would exceed $100 USD.

My Sinewave Revolution still works, will stick with that for now.

John Saxby

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2033
Re: Cycle2Charge charging unit
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2020, 11:42:44 PM »
Quote
My Sinewave Revolution still works

Mine stopped working this past summer, its 6th year :(   The problem seemed to be that the USB (output) port had become ever so slightly loose, so that the charge was intermittent.

I took it to a well-regarded local repair shop which usually handles phones & tablets, and they said that they frequently see that sort of problem.  They were unable to repair the Sinewave, though, because it's sealed.

I had a good email exchange with one of the tech specialists at Sinewave, who gave me a series of tests to verify that the problem was indeed the charger, and not the wiring from the SON28.  He was also sympathetic--said that he'd never heard of this problem with one of their products.  I sent him the remains of the charger last fall -- haven't heard anything since.

In the end, I decided to buy a new Sinewave -- I'm familiar with it, and the dead 'un gave me five-plus years of reliable service.  The price for the first one worked out at about USD 20/year.  How does one assess that?  Replacement cost wasn't prohibitive, and if the new one lasts as long as its predecessor, it will take me to the end of my 8th decade. (Yikes!!)

PhilD28

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 49
Re: Cycle2Charge charging unit
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2020, 08:32:49 AM »
I think 5 years is decent service for an all weather electronic device with a usb port John.
It might be worth getting a usb male to female adaptor and keeping it in place permanently by wiping a sealing bead of silicon around it. This would protect the sinewave port and connections making the adaptor a replaceable wear part. Vibration and cable instal and removal  along with corrosion is possibly the issue.

If you buy an adaptor get one with brass or gold plated connections.

PhilD28

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 49
Re: Cycle2Charge charging unit
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2020, 08:42:41 AM »
Just a thought, I always keep a can of Deoxit D5 handy and spray my charging and lighting contact with it occasionally. It’s about the best contact cleaner and protector I’ve found. Expensive but very good.

mickeg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2801
Re: Cycle2Charge charging unit
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2020, 01:56:24 PM »
If I recall correctly, Sinewave Revolution has gold plated contacts, should not require any sealing.

I bought the Sinewave for my Iceland trip because Iceland has frequent precipitation and I was concerned that the waterproofing around the USB port area on my AXA Luxx 70 Plus was non-existent.  But the Sinewave waterproofing of encapsulating all the electronics in epoxy sounded like the best waterproofing available.  But in Johns case, that waterproofing apparently prevents repair.

The Cycle2Charge with shipping to USA would be a bit cheaper than a new Sinewave.  If my Sinewave died, i would be tempted to try the Cycle2Charge to see how well that higher charge rate works.

I also have a B&M Luxos U, I bought that because my Garmin model 64 will not directly charge off of the Sinewave or the Luxx 70 Plus because they lack a pass through cache battery, the Garmin needs that for charging.  But I bought the Luxos U primarily for non-touring use.

***

I think I previously posted a comment somewhere on this forum that I measured on one of my 20 mile exercise rides near home that my Sinewave Revolution produced on average 2.5 watts while rolling on a route that is mostly flat.

Yesterday I put my meter on the USB outlet of my Luxos U and did the same ride, I got an average of 1.8 watts.  But, the Luxos U has an internal battery pack and it is possible that much of the rolling time was recharging the battery pack, so there could be a large error in that average of 1.8 watts.  This ride was less than an hour and a half, come summer when the temperature is above freezing, I plan to try a longer test of several hours, that would reduce the impact of battery charging/discharging on the USB port.

Looking at the performance chart for the Cycle2Charge, I would probably be getting closer to 4 watts on my exercise ride if the manufacturer data is to be believed.  The link to that chart again is at:
http://www.cycle2charge.de/images/Bilder/Leistungsvergleich-eng_V3.JPG

« Last Edit: February 08, 2020, 01:59:15 PM by mickeg »

PhilD28

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 49
Re: Cycle2Charge charging unit
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2020, 04:28:33 PM »
I think there are problems other than corrosion with USB ports, once a cable is connected they aren't at all waterproof and shorting across the terminal can occur unless a cover is used. The other problem I see with USB connections is vibration wearing them out and making them loose, it's not really an ideal connection method for an all weather device subject to vibration. Hence my suggestion of using a sacrificial adaptor that could be replaced when worn. Using silicon to surround the adaptor would make it impervious to vibration  but easily replaced.

I understand the electronics are encapsulated but the terminals aren't, shorting out across them can damage electronics, I've experienced this. I normally use an adapted shower cap as a cover but have used the sacrificial adaptor on several  friends bikes and it works very well.

Danneaux

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8281
  • reisen statt rasen
Re: Cycle2Charge charging unit
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2020, 08:19:54 PM »
Quote
I think there are problems other than corrosion with USB ports, once a cable is connected they aren't at all waterproof and shorting across the terminal can occur unless a cover is used.
One of the biggest problems with continued charging in a wet environment is electrolysis. Gold-plated contacts help, but if the water gets inside beyond the connectors in the presence of electrical current then over time it can eat away at the soldered connections and copper leads, causing a break there. It usually happens between the gold plated USB pins and the epoxy the boards are potted in. I've often seen it with devices intended to be waterproof that were used in wet environments after the seals deteriorated.

That is why I use a little homemade shower cap over my charger in the wet (or dry dusty conditions) and o-rings (See attached photos below). The o-rings reduce the entry point for water, especially if the rings are coated lightly with dialectric grease to help repel water and form a light seal for anything that gets past the shower cap. In my desert touring I have to also be mindful of the effects of corrosive alkali dust as well as water encountered in rain and thunderstorms. Taking the precaution of adding one or two alkali-resistant nitrile o-rings shields the socket from dirt and water entry to an additional degree. It is also helpful to cap the open USB socket when you are not charging. I fitted a later Cinq5 weather plug to my older Tout Terrain The Plug 2+ for this purpose, but the rotating weather cap on the Cycle2Charge does a surprisingly good job of deflecting the direct entry of dust and moisture. Regardless of whether the pins are gold plated or not,common dust and dirt caught between the sliding connection can affect conductivity. Alkali dust (desert playa) can be directly corrosive, enough that I usually pack a small eyedrops bottle filled with vinegar to counteract the effects on electronics. See:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htKnGcpdBrQ
...and...
https://burningman.org/event/preparation/playa-living/post-playa-tips/
This is also why I take pH test strips with me. My first test of any potential drinking water found in the desert is for alkali level. Some is so alkaline it would scorch my oral mucous membranes and damage the electrodes on my SteriPen.

The last photo below shows one of my derailleur bikes crossing Nevada's Black Rock Desert in high summer, loaded with 26.5l of water. As you can see, this is near the edge of the dry lake's playa and this portion became damp as a result of groundwater and previous rains, making it soft enough for the bike to sink in and stand on its own. Just ahead is the larger stretch of dried salt-pan which is hard as concrete, self-leveled and a much better riding surface. The two surfaces each present their own challenges in terms of dust. The softer stuff clings and sifts, the harder stuff blows finely in the wind and when the tornadolike dust storms hit it goes into everything causing a virtual whiteout of dust. When it does rain, all turns to a corrosive pudding covered with water that sits atop the hardpan until it can soak in -- a soup that blisters skin and rusts steel pretty quickly. This photo makes it pretty clear why I prefer my Nomad's sealed Rohloff hub to an open derailleur drivetrain for my desert expeditions. It also explains why I set aside time in camp each night to clean the bike's exposed drive components.
Quote
Hence my suggestion of using a sacrificial adaptor that could be replaced when worn. Using silicon to surround the adaptor would make it impervious to vibration  but easily replaced.
<nods> All good aspects, but be sure to select a "neutral cure" silicone -- one without acetic acid. Acetic acid is the damaging, acute irritant to eyes and sinuses and lungs that smells like vinegar and can be harmful as it outgasses/cures. It can also damage electrical connections, as is well established:
https://books.google.com/books/about/Contamination_Effects_on_Electronic_Prod.html?id=wKXgVis88NkC
...and...
https://books.google.com/books/about/Avionic_Cleaning_and_Corrosion_Preventio.html?id=7Xw-AAAAYAAJ
...and...
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/789138-silicone-sealant-driver-damage.html
I learned this early in my former life troubleshooting and overhauling electronic engine-management systems. Acetic acid can etch electrical contacts as it outgasses and you can see the results under 30x magnification as pitting and discoloration that increases resistance. If you use a neutral cure silicone, acetic acid is not present. Just check the label first and then your nose -- if you smell vinegar, then try a different caulk formulation.

Best,

Dan.

« Last Edit: February 08, 2020, 11:29:44 PM by Danneaux »

mickeg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2801
Re: Cycle2Charge charging unit
« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2020, 12:12:56 AM »
Wow, your low riders were getting close to too low.

On my Nomad I use a front rack that raises the panniers up about 3 inches (~~75mm) higher than they would be with a typical low rider rack.  I have not hit anything with any panniers on the front of any bike, but I just barely heard some scraping sound when my handle bar wanted to pull a bit to one side, realized I was almost grounding my pannier on some curbing, that was on my Sherpa with a regular low rider rack.  Close call.





Danneaux

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8281
  • reisen statt rasen
Re: Cycle2Charge charging unit
« Reply #28 on: February 09, 2020, 07:30:36 AM »
Quote
Wow, your low riders were getting close to too low.
<nods> Yeah I was sinking fast, George, and it was tough pushing at the "shoreline". As you can see, the bike is standing on its own because the wheels have sunk so far.

I took this bike on that tour because I was a little short of time and reasoned 700x32C tires would be faster on the paved roads between home and desert and on the hardpan playa. They were indeed fast as I made 200km/day but when I arrived, I saw I had miscalculated and paid the price as the narrow tires sliced through the soft stuff.Except for seasonal trends, I can't really tell how the playa will be until I get there. It would have been a lot more fun with the Nomad that trip. Also, by the time I returned home I had put a lot of wear on a cassette that was almost new when I left home.

Wider tires might or might not have made much difference in flotation on that trip given how very soft the play was until I hit hardpan, but the Nomad has worked as well for me on 200km days, its much sturdier frame would have been much a lot more stable and pleasant with the load I was carrying, and the Rohloff drivetrain would surely have helped.

I've generally had no problems with the height of the Thorn lowriders, but there was one instance in Croatia where an oncoming driver made a foolish pass causing my front bags to rub-through on a bridge apron. See: http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=12758.msg95077#msg95077 I was very lucky to come through unscathed but in that instance it would indeed have helped to have my panniers ride a little bit higher that day. Generally, though, they have been fine except for a few instances. Back in the 1980s I used high-riding racks, but generally prefer the better handling that comes from carrying the load a bit lower.

Pulling things back on topic a bit...

The bicycle in the photo is equipped with a B&M e-Werk. It uses sealed, screw-type connections that do a very good job keeping out moisture and dirt. I generally attach one lead to the little box that contains the e-Werk circuitry and then connect the dedicated B&M cabling that terminates in the B&M USB port, which I keep snake into my waterproof handlebar bag. It has adjustable voltage and current and completely solves the socket shielding problem (cover the main unit or tilt it so it doesn't get direct exposure to continuous rainwater), so has much to recommend it. B&M make a separate cache battery that can be readily integrated. See:
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/dynamos/busch-muller-ewerk/?geoc=US
...and...
http://en.bumm.de/produkte/e-werk/e-werk.html
...and...
https://www.peterwhitecycles.com/ewerk.php  <== This link contains another link to a downloadable manual

The adjustable nature of the e-Werk can be its Achilles heel. It is important to match the voltage and current demands to the gadget being charged or damage can occur to the gadget; that's something to keep in mind if you swap in different gadgets with varying demands. I generally keep mine set to approximate the USB 2.0 standard 5vdc @ 500mA/0.5A (the e-Werk settings are not exact but close with 0.7v charging increments) and occasionally tweak the amperage upward for devices that can handle charging at a higher rate. Devices with nonadjustable outputs like the Cycle2Charge avoid such problems when one is tired or loses track. Still, the e-Werk works well enough I am transferring it to my gravel bike and expect to use it for some years ahead.

Best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2020, 08:44:57 PM by Danneaux »

mickeg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2801
Re: Cycle2Charge charging unit
« Reply #29 on: February 09, 2020, 11:43:37 AM »
...
The adjustable nature of the e-Werk can be its Achilles heel. It is important to match the voltage and current demands to the gadget being charged or damage can occur to the gadget; that's something to keep in mind if you swap in different gadgets with varying demands. I generally keep mine set to a USB 2.0 standard 5vdc @ 500mA/0.5A. Devices with nonadjustable outputs like the Cycle2Charge avoid such problems when one is tired or loses track. Still, the e-Werk works well enough I am transferring it to my gravel bike and expect to use it for some years ahead.

Best,

Dan.

I only use 5v USB stuff, I would have no reason to buy a unit with adjustable voltage.

When not touring, my Sinewave is in use on my rando bike.  But I use the Sinewave for touring.  I rarely do more than one tour a year, so switching the Sinewave from bike to bike is rare and not a big deal, but that was part of my thinking on buying another charger to have just for touring purposes only. 

For touring, I have largely decided to use the dynohub exclusively for USB charging.  But for non-touring, use the dynohub mostly for lighting and occasional USB charging.