Author Topic: Shimano front hub question  (Read 6839 times)

macspud

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Shimano front hub question
« on: April 30, 2013, 05:42:58 PM »
I'm in the market for a new 700C front wheel build and am trying to pin down which hub to go for, the wheel will be for road use, firstly for training (i.e. weight loss) and later for touring. It needs to be able to hold up to my considerable weight, 115kg at the moment hence the need to get pedalling again.
The two hubs that I've narrowed it down to are Shimano Deore XT FH-T780 or Shimano Deore LX HB-T670 Front Hub.
I'd appreciate help in deciding which of the two hubs would be best suited to my needs. From reading past threads on here, the consensus at the time was that touring cyclists preferred Deore LX as it was perceived to be longer lasting than Deore XT. Is that still the case?

The wheels to be built up by SJSCs wheel builder and the cost difference between the two builds would be negligible.

I plan to use Rigida Sputnik 36 hole rims.

Any and all suggestions welcome.

Regards,

Iain.

Danneaux

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Re: Shimano front hub question
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2013, 06:24:34 PM »
Hi Iain!

Yep, the results related in the earlier discussion ( http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=5417.0 ) still seem to be holding from what I have seen on world tourist forums. It takes awhile for data to collect and if the problem is addressed...we may not hear except by the absence of bad reports. Internet reporting is notoriously skewed. People squawk readily if something fails to meet expectations but don't always say if things go well.

I'm still pleased with the service offered by plain ol' Deore, but if the cost difference is negligible, I'd surely try LX and get the higher-finish cones in the bargain. I would still tend to avoid XT (even at a similar price) because of reported concerns over bearing life under heavier loads and while touring. On the other hand, I have the strong impression the greater incidence of such problems occur at the (more heavily loaded and stressed) rear hub and not the front. Keep in mind I have not tried recent XT and am going by reports gathered in various fora among loaded world tourists. It might well be with more regular maintenance and normal touring loads, the hubs could do well. Certainly, XT seems to work well in MTB usage where maintenance is more regular.

The Rigida Sputnik is a terrific rim, and is essentially the same as an EXAL S19, also highly regarded. That 700C rim with 36 spokes should do fine for your weight and intended purpose, especially if you are willing or able (due to frame/fork clearances) to play with matching tire width to purpose. I've had good luck switching between 28mm and 32 or even 35mm tires on my 700C rims. As the tires get wider (and taller, since they usually have a 1:1 profile-to-section width ratio), they can use lower pressures for greater comfort and better shock absorption -- just the thing when touring and I would suggest wider tires for heavier riders. Wide tires make even an underbuilt wheel last longer by sparing it some of the road shock otherwise transmitted by narrow, high-pressure tires.

As a data point, I've had terrifically good luck over the years, touring even off-road on my 700C Mavic MA-2 rims with 1.8mm unbutted spokes. I weigh 78kg, but add in a 14.5kg bike, 3kg of water in the bottles, and 25kg of load and you've got 120.5kg. A lot depends on riding style -- I post (stand up on the pedals) over bumps a *lot*, and I believe this makes life easier on my wheels. I'm generally very easy on my equipment. Still, my wheels stay nice and true over the years without needed touchup. The real keys are seating the spoke bends and high, even tension throughout. None of that should be a problem for a custom wheelbuilder.

Iain, have you asked SJSC's 'builder for their opinion for your weight and intended uses? If so, did they give any feedback on your preferred choice?

Hope this helps.

All the best,

Dan. (...who really enjoys tire and wheel discussions)
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 04:06:00 AM by Danneaux »

macspud

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Re: Shimano front hub question
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2013, 02:41:57 AM »
Hello Dan,

I am glad that you think my thoughts on hub and rim will hold up to my weight, I was leaning towards the Deore LX. I weigh more in shorts and t shirt than many cycle tourers do fully loaded. The weight is going in the right direction though, I had topped out at 145kg about this time last year. It'll be nice when my preferred portion sizes are OK to have as burning them off with cycling. I've been doing a power of walking so the legs are in quite good shape (for walking anyway) though I'm sure they will feel the burn for a while until I get used to pedalling again. I can't wait though, it has always been the best way for me to regulate my weight and fitness and the weight increase and fitness decrease only really got a hold when I wrote off my last mountain bike (long, steep hill ending with a tight bend, by the time I hit the bend my brakes were goosed from trying to slow down, I'd been a bit over enthusiastic with my speed on the way down. Long story short the bike didn't make it round the corner, I was sore but the bike was broken).
Quote
have you asked SJSC's 'builder for their opinion for your weight and intended uses? If so, did they give any feedback on your preferred choice?
I haven't asked their builder but I was talking to one of their staff today, he thought that either hub with that rim would be fine with a good build make a very strong wheel. What spokes do you think would suit? I'd like the wheels to be as strong as possible without being too terribly heavy.
I will ask them to consult with their wheel builder before finalising an order. It would be nice to have a full package in mind before hand though, to see know where he is coming from if he does suggest a different option to be more suitable.

As for tyres, I will be going for as big as will happy fit, I know that 32mm will fit fine, I will have to measure carefully for tolerance before going for a 35mm. What measurement would you say is the minimum workable clearance between the tyre side walls and chainstays? there is no problem with clearance tyre height wise.

Regards,

Iain.
 :)


NZPeterG

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Re: Shimano front hub question
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2013, 06:47:15 AM »
Hi Ian,
I have just been looking up SJS Cycles and if your after that best and strongest front hub you can not get better then Shimano XTR HB-M900 QR NON Parallax Front Hub - 36 Hole! (it a Steel)
It's an older hub when Shimano made strong hub's with top bearings

As for rim's I would go for a far Better rim  ::)

Mavic A319 700c = double eyelets (strong) Very Strong Rim's and well priced.
Mavic A 719 700c = double eyelets (strong) Strong, Light (for touring) I have them on My Africa Bike.
DT Swiss TK540 700c = double eyelets (strong) Strong and one of the few DT rim's still made in Switzerland.

Spokes I would go for

DT Swiss DB 2mm/1.8mm stronger build then plan 2mm spokes.

Of course the cost goes up but if you after a Strong, High Mileage front wheel this would be it.

O' no I have put my foot into it Again  ::)

Pete

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« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 06:59:35 AM by NZPeterG »
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Danneaux

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Re: Shimano front hub question
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2013, 07:26:05 AM »
Hi Iain!

At the fork blades, I will allow 5-8mm minimum clearance each side between the widest part of the tire and the inside of the fork blade. Because I am risk averse and don't want the front tire to foul the fork blades, I tend to go with 7-8mm minimum on my own 700C road bikes.

At the rear, you've got a bit more leeway; most 700C road bikes have either ovalized chainstays or the stays are indented for greater tire clearance on the inside faces opposite the tire. There, I have had no problem with 4-5mm minimum clearance on each side.

These measurements are for tires that caliper to a true 32mm to as much as 35mm at their widest point, and are my measure of the gap between tire and tubing at the narrowest point. Each of my bikes have indented chainstays which helps with tire clearance.

The main thing is you want to allow for the unexpected -- mud buildup, a bunch of sticky wet leaves, or a wheel being knocked badly out of true by hitting something unexpected. If that happened at the rear, at most the tire would scrub the inside of the chainstays and you'd lose a bit of paint or the wheel would possibly lock. Between the fork blades, things could become serious quickly if the tire/wheel bound up (faceplant). Again, because I am risk averse I won't go closer than 5-8mm clearance at each side up front, but I have seen others do fine with less -- on the order of 3-4mm per side -- but I wouldn't want to risk it myself.

As for spokes, I've had wonderful luck with unbutted 1.8mm DT spokes and Wheelsmith nipples in my narrow box-section rims (DT nipples tend to discolor over time in my own use), but again, I'm really easy on wheels and equipment. I built up my heavy-duty touring wheels using wider 700C Alex Adventurer rims for the Miyata with 36 unbutted 2.0mm Wheelsmith spokes and nipples laced cross-3 on Bontrager sealed-bearing 9-sp hubs and they held up wonderfully both on- and off-road during my 2010 Great Basin desert tour, where the bike had a loaded weight of 49.4kg plus my own 78kg for an overall total of 127.4kg. I used 32mm Bontrager Select K road slicks and had no problems except when I broke the Kevlar belt in the rear tire by running over the leg of a portable highway caution sign when forced off the shoulder by a car. The wheels ended the trip true as could be -- to my usual standard of 0.1mm radial and axial runout.

For your intended use and weight (keeping in mind your eventual goal to add more weight with a touring load), I would suggest either unbutted 2.0mm spokes or butted 2.0/1.8/2.0. Again, I'd go with 36 spokes laced cross-3. Keep in mind this is for your less heavily stressed front wheel only rather than a pair.

As for brands of spokes, I've built with all the big names and have found the quality pretty much identical between stainless DT, Wheelsmith, Asahi, and Sapim. I think Wheelsmith are the most thoughtfully engineered details and have the most corrosion-resistant nipples that are also the most resistant to rounding under high tension. Sapim's polyax nipples are self-centering to a degree and are a requirement when you are running low-cross spoke lacings on high flange hubs (i.e. cross-2 spokes with a Rohloff hub and Rigida Andra rim, which also has socket nipple seats in the inner spoke wells), but the nipples are a bit soft and don't seem to handle very high spoke tension as well as Wheelsmith nipples in my experience. I think it is a matter of matching features to need and one brand of spokes/nipples is not clearly better than another except in specific applications. Again, if the wheels are properly built with even high tension and protected/cushioned by tires appropriate for need, they should hold up fine for a larger rider who uses them with reasonable care to avoid hitting potholes and such square-on.

As for tires -- keeping in mind the clearances mentioned above -- I'd go with 28mm measured (actual) section width for go-fast use unladen on good roads (not that they'll necessarily have lower rolling resistance, but you'll notice the difference in acceleration due to reduced weight), with 32mm for general use and 35mm for touring; 38mm for heavier loads on bad roads if they'll fit.

You haven't mentioned the kind of bike you'll be outfitting, but if it has ramped dropouts at the rear, you can gain a bit of clearance by moving the axle rearward just a bit, though this may affect shifting precision to a degree. Remember, some tires are wider in the upper third of their profile, while others have side lugs or a tread cap you'll need to watch for, so clearances will vary by the individual tire chosen. A slick will give the greatest interior air volume for a given size 'cos you won't have to allow for tread lugs. If you go with wider tires, keep in mind you'll probably have to deflate them to pass by the brakes when installing or removing a wheel.

Each custom wheelbuilder will weigh a number of variables in recommending and selecting components and build design. When I build wheels I like to know something about a rider's needs and style as well as weight and intended use. That way, I can fine-tune things, using everything from differential lacing to mixed spoke diameters and crosses and choice of components to meet the need. I'm sure your new wheel will be fine; Thorn have built a lot of wheels for a broad range of customers and should have a good sense of what will work well for you.

On a personal note, I want to offer every encouragement in your journey back to full cycling fitness. That was surely a big "off" you had, and I'm glad you weren't severely hurt, though it must have been tough to lose the bike and I have a feeling your injuries were no picnic. Nice to think you'll be back in the saddle again soon!

You're welcome to PM me if you have any questions or want to toss around ideas.

All the best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 07:32:45 AM by Danneaux »

NZPeterG

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Re: Shimano front hub question
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2013, 08:38:06 AM »
Good Points Dan,
Spokes any of the top makes are good and nipples (but in NZ I can only get DT in a full ranger of size's)

A lot of people think that unbutted spokes are stronger then butted spokes! this in Not true!
Why because you only need the meat at the end's and the making of the middle (butting) makes them stronger.

To get strong wheels you need good spokes, double eyelet rim's, good (well made) hub's.
(I have a top end hub made in the USA, back in the 1990's AL/Ti come apart?)

Pete

Quote
most people can build wheels nice and true, But few can build a strong pair.
SJS Cycle's are one of the few in the UK.

.

 
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mickeg

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Re: Shimano front hub question
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2013, 01:42:32 PM »
I think the problems with the recent (last several years) XT hubs was the back, not front.  If my recollection is right, the M760 version had steel axles and the M770 aluminum axles.  The rear had some problems under heavy duty applications due to smaller bearings.  The aluminum axle was a very large robust design, thus the need for smaller bearings.  But I have not heard of any problems with the newer front hubs.

I have the M760 on front and rear on one touring bike, the M760 on the front of another touring bike and the M770 on the front on my foldup bike.  In both cases, I got good prices on them and if the price was not right I would have gotten something else.


macspud

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Re: Shimano front hub question
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2013, 05:44:20 PM »
Hello Peter, that's got me thinking
Quote
I have just been looking up SJS Cycles and if your after that best and strongest front hub you can not get better then Shimano XTR HB-M900 QR NON Parallax Front Hub - 36 Hole! (it a Steel)
I hadn't noticed that hub. I had thought that Parallax were stronger than non Parallax?
It does look like a very good deal and SJS Cycles note that it has
Quote
Finest EVER bearing surfaces
but does that mean the smoothest bearing surfaces or the longest lasting bearing surfaces, or does it mean that they are both, the smoothest and longest lasting?

Hello mickeg, Thanks for your input,
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I think the problems with the recent (last several years) XT hubs was the back, not front.  If my recollection is right, the M760 version had steel axles and the M770 aluminum axles
The M760 isn't available from SJSC, the M770 is but only in 32 hole version. I want/need a 36 hole hub, so I'd already discarded them from my list, good to have the input though.

Hello Dan,
Quote
You haven't mentioned the kind of bike you'll be outfitting
in answer, the bike is an old Dawes Galaxy that I bought on ebay as a stop gap, to get me back cycling whilst I continue saving for a Thorn Nomad MkII build.

The spokes used in the costed wheel build are 14g DT Champion Stainless , with nipples, made from brass, finished with a nickel plate.
 
With the wheel build I'm aiming for good strong build at a reasonable but budget price.

Hmmmm, me thinks......I'll have to do some more research and thinking on this.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2013, 07:18:14 PM by macspud »

Danneaux

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Re: Shimano front hub question
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2013, 06:09:54 PM »
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the bike is an old Dawes Galaxy that I bought on ebay as a stop gap, to get me back cycling
Hi Ian! Sounds to me like an ideal interim ride...and maybe one to keep even after you get a Thorn. One can, um, <cough cough> never have too many bikes. Big thing is to get back out on a bike. All will follow from there.
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The spokes used in the costed wheel build are 14g DT Champion Stainless , with nipples, made from brass, finished with a nickel plate.
FWIW I think that will work fine for your weight and stated needs, Iain.
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With the wheel build I'm aiming for good strong build at a reasonable but budget price.
I think you've hit a good combination, all things considered.
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Hmmmm, me thinks......I'll have to do some more research and thinking on this.
No problem; give a shout if you'd like input.

Best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2013, 06:11:27 PM by Danneaux »