Author Topic: Tube Coping Calculator (one for Dan or anyone else who self build bicycles)  (Read 5185 times)

macspud

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 730
I came across this handy tube coping calculator whilst watching vids on you tube http://metalgeek.com/static/cope.pcgi
You can imput tube diameters, angles, wall thickness and get a printable cut patern to wrap around the tube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yT108iL-vMw  
Looks useful for people doing self build frames (immediately thought of you Dan, knowing you do self builds).

Danneaux

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8281
  • reisen statt rasen
Thanks, Mac; very thoughtful of you to flag this one!

Yes, hobbyist framebuilding is a fun and wonderful pursuit, and will surely tell you if want to do it professionally (a hearty "No!" from this hobbyist; for one thing, the liability insurance here in the 'States would surely kill any profit. For another, it is a *lot* of very hard work to produce even one frame from scratch. Add in the demands of a custom build for fussy/unpredictable others and...no thanks).

I have tried a more primitive version of this coping calculator in the past (it wasn't as nicely smooth-edged), but now use a tubing notcher...a little fixture that holds the tube in place at a set angle while I run an electric-drill-powered bimetal hole saw through it, while using lots of cutting fluid. Using a file for cleanup, all my joints are light-tight and tube edges are plane with the mating tube.

One of the toughest things about mitering is getting both copes (at each end of the tube) to be in the same plane (so the head tube is in vertical alignment with the seat tube, for example). If you're fussy like me -- I am not happy unless everything is "true" to within 0.1mm/.003in -- it can be a real challenge. So far, I've found the best method is to set the uncut tube on a surfaced table and then draw a machinist's scribe the length of it, then rub some machinist-blue dye into the scribed line to use as a hard reference for aligning the copes at either end. I also spent a lot of time getting my notcher dialed-in so the cope is centered on the tube laterally as well. I've seen frames with the tube in plane, but the top tube offset a millimeter or two to the side.

Boy! A hobbyist builder sure does learn about and soon comes to appreciate the challenges faced by custom and production builders!

Tubes aren't always rolled or drawn "round", the walls vary in thickness, butting isn't always accurate or internally unflawed, and odd-shaped tubing can be twisted. I used a rare Phil Wood elliptical tandem keel tube for the main frame spar on my Folder, and the ends were over a degree out-of-plane. It wouldn't have mattered much in tandem use, as the tube would have been set the "wide way", but I employed it with the long section vertically, and had to deliberately mill it off-center to get both ends to align. The fillet hid the needed fudging -- it aligns and I know what was needed to do so, but a buyer would have no idea as the cake is already baked by the time it is ridden.

Lugs often require a lot of cleanup, and the published angles aren't always as-claimed. Fillet brazing gets around the lug issue, but there can variations in the same brand of flux, and even gas-fluxers pop and fuss from time to time. I take great care to braze in a draft-free environment, but I've seen other builders braze in the breeze of an open window; not great for controlled cooling of the joint.

It makes me sympathetic and empathetic to manufacturers who occasionally have an unexplained failure of unknown origin. Some flaws just don't show, even in the building! Annnnnd...some flaws do show but go out anyway as the fault of the builder. For example, a friend recently paid USD$8,000 for her complete custom-built frame/bike. She was thrilled with it until she tried to shift the cassette into high gear and found the builder had forgotten to notch the lower end of the right seatstay for clearance at the dropout. Oops. Her other similarly-priced custom from another builder had a misaligned fork, a sad reminder that sometimes production bikes are made to higher basic standards than full-on customs.

Returning to that topic of liability here in the 'States...a person really can't build a frame and then even gift it to a relative or friend to ride; it just isn't worth it. Insurance companies are now going back through two or three parties to recover their payout costs, so I don't sell or pass-on any of my creations, making them only for myself.

Thanks again for the thoughtful link, Mac; very much appreciated!

All the best,

Dan.

Andre Jute

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4128
Yes, I've used various versions of it, though simply to demonstrate that tubes for a slightly strange design could easily be cut right. I failed to find someone to build my design and bought the nearest thing commerically available, a crossframe mixte from Utopia in Germany. I found the versions of the miter program I used via Sheldon Brown's site. If you grasp the geometry, programming something like it is, if not trivial, not all that difficult either; you could do it any program with macros, like the Microsoft/Office spreadsheet Excel, possibly even in the Apple Numbers app, though I haven't tried it. Hint: the minimum smooth and accurate resolution for the drawings is 800 pixels per inch (ppi), this being an old EPS standard that high-accuracy graphics programmes like Adobe Illustrator print to, a standard taken over into PDF.

Andre Jute

Danneaux

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8281
  • reisen statt rasen
Building your own frame surely gives the flexibility to add whatever little whatsits you ever might wish for. In my case, it was a chance to mill a replaceable bottle-cap lifter from alu billet, then mount it to a boss I brazed on the underside of the chainstay. The bike folds and sits on itself, needing no securing when folded; it wedges itself shut with its own tubes, so the underside of the 'stay becomes the top when at rest...ready for bottle-opening time. As noted previously, a rare treat for me is Jarritos Mexican soda pop ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jarritos ), which uses crimped-on caps. Gotta be ready when a Jarritos presents itself! Tamarindo (tamarind seed) is my flavor of choice (photo 1, prior to final finishing and polishing).

No piccies of the full bike at the current stage 'cos the hinges are also the patent model, but I hope to soon have the full-sus 406mm-wheeled, 27-sp folding touring bike of my dreams. It folds to nearly fit within the outline of a 700C wheel/tire, and easily fits upright in the hatch well of my '89 Honda Civic Si with the seatback up and room for bags. It takes a full set of Ortliebs and awaits only a couple more cable guides, a final braze of the sus-steering mast and wet-paint to be ridable. I designed and made (milled, brazed) the frame, racks, suspension and ancillary items like the telescoping seatpost myself, buying only the drivetrain, saddle, 'bars and brakes. The thing is modular, so it slots in at 19lbs/8.6kg "bare" and configured for speed, 28lbs/12.7kg in full-on expedition touring mode. I weigh 78kg and can stand on the rear rack with no problem. Too many projects, too little time.

The second photo shows that twisted tandem keel tube. Nothing "wrong" with it beyond the usual distortion that comes with forming such odd-shaped tubes. I halved the difference at each end and the tube sits straight between the copes, to my usual 0.1mm tolerances. Of course, the bottle bosses all had to be off-center to accommodate the twist, but that's part and parcel of the builder's challenges.

Best,

Dan.

« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 06:46:13 PM by Danneaux »

swc7916

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 52
I have tried a more primitive version of this coping calculator in the past (it wasn't as nicely smooth-edged), but now use a tubing notcher...a little fixture that holds the tube in place at a set angle while I run an electric-drill-powered bimetal hole saw through it, while using lots of cutting fluid. Using a file for cleanup, all my joints are light-tight and tube edges are plane with the mating tube.

R+E uses a method that I thought was quite ingenious:  They miter their tubes abrasively.  The mitering machine consists of a belt sander with different sizes of mandrels that match the diameter of the cope and a sliding table that locks the tube at the desired angle. Coping is very quick and accurate.

They also braze on a bottle opener on all their touring models.

Danneaux

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8281
  • reisen statt rasen
Quote
R+E uses a method that I thought was quite ingenious
<nods> It sure is a nice way to go about it, and seems to work better in a shop environment than at home for the hobbyist builder. For one thing, my belt runs were nowhere near as long, so the belts wore out more quickly in my use. Second, it made a whale of a lot of waste dust even with an air-evacuator hooked up to the sander. In a production environment neither is a problem, but it didn't work out as well as the notcher for my own less-frequent use.

I will still sometimes use pre-sized sanding drums after my notching for cleanup, and this works really well and beats filing, which I hate.

On the other hand, my electric and air-powered bandfiles work pretty well, and they use short belts. The difference is they are only used on detail work and softer stuff than cro-moly. I had expected to use them to smooth my fillets, but I have found I can lay and smooth my fillets with the torch so smoothly they don't really need much if any abrasive finishing -- yay! The secret is in absolute cleanliness of the joint and rod, just the right flux, and technique. I ScotchBrite my rods before each pass to pre-remove surface oxides, and it really helps with laying smooth fillets.

Best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 07:59:48 PM by Danneaux »