Author Topic: e-Bike tires as touring tires?  (Read 4856 times)

Danneaux

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e-Bike tires as touring tires?
« on: October 12, 2012, 07:39:13 AM »
Hi All!

I remain interested in all things bicycle-related, so my attention has been piqued recently by the evolving e-bike (pedelec) market -- bicycles with motor-assist. While I am not in the market for one myself, I'm intrigued (just as I am by carbon-fibre facing bikes), and Andre's posts have given me a lot to think about as well.

I see most bicycle tire manufacturers are developing and selling specialized tires for this market (Schwalbe offer five different models), and they all have similar goals -- low rolling resistance for maximizing battery efficiency, a comfortable ride (supple sidewalls/air suspension) to overcome the heavier weight of a hub motor/bb motor and bicycle with batteries, good flat resistance, a versatile tread, and tolerance for higher speeds.

Here's what electricbike.com have to say: http://www.electricbike.com/tires/
...And Schwalbe's take: http://www.schwalbe.com/gbl/en/startseite/?gesamt=320&flash=1&ID_Land=38&ID_Sprache=2&ID_Seite=126

Hmm. Sounds like many of the characteristics I look for in touring tires -- particularly for loaded or expedition touring. Makes me wonder how suitable these e-bike tires might be for loaded touring. Looking at prices, e-bike tires are priced more economically than their touring brethren, so that is attractive as well.

So, do or have any of you used e-bike tires for human-powered trekking? Andre, your thoughts and suggestions wrt usability for this purpose? You're among our more experienced and vocal e-bike users and have more background on the related components; what's your take on e-bike tires as trekking/touring tires?

Best,

Dan.

Andybg

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Re: e-Bike tires as touring tires?
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2012, 09:21:32 AM »
Certainly sounds like an interesting proposal.

As you say, I think many of the desires in both is exactly the same so I am not sure why their is a need for two different tyre ranges.

It will b interesting to see if there is much real difference or it is a case of targeted marketing of almost existing products?

It would be interesting to contact Schwalbe and ask them exactly what the different attributes the tyres have.


Andre Jute

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Re: e-Bike tires as touring tires?
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2012, 02:59:33 PM »
Here's what electricbike.com have to say: http://www.electricbike.com/tires/

I wouldn't trust these clowns as far as I can throw them. For instance, in the fourth sentence I read on their site, I find this nonsense: "Other than gearing, the taller tires do not make a big difference on ride quality, stability or ride efficiency." It's rubbish on every single count. Not only do they get what they say wrong, they miss out on the actual advantages of smaller wheels (strength and via strength longevity of the wheel though not of the tyre). Read Andy Blance on 26in wheels and you'll hear everything you need to know; these ignorant bandwagoneers at http://www.electricbike.com/tires/ should take a tip.

The entire next paragraph, on gearing, is crap. You don't gear up or down by changing wheel size, not unless you're an idiot, you change gearing by ordering the motor to have the right rpm, which is arranged by its construction and/or internal gearing.

For the preservation of my blood pressure, I didn't read any further.

...And Schwalbe's take: http://www.schwalbe.com/gbl/en/startseite/?gesamt=320&flash=1&ID_Land=38&ID_Sprache=2&ID_Seite=126

Schwalbe is a class act and an exemplary corporation for the open way they provide technical information to customers, and give them a window on their thinking. But, for the time being, it seems to me Andy is right, this is a case of targeted marketing, existing concepts, carcases, treads, compounds being repurposed to an emerging market. I don't see anything new here. Yet. But there's a point that needs consideration, and typically Schwalbe has already considered it, even though I think they're the bike tyre company that least needs to consider it. It's the speed rating of bike tyres.

When I designed a bike from the ground up around balloon tyres, I chose them among other reasons to match my tendency to go bombing down bad hills at the maximum speed the gradient will sustain, sometimes well over what the road surface might indicate. I'd already done a ton (100kph/62mph) on Marathon Plus, and noted their minimum temperature rise with approval. I expected not only greater roadholding and more refined handling from the balloons, but actually greater speed, and was not disappointed, as I have described before. I'm a big fan of Schwalbe tyres.

However, the Schwalbe are overkill for your average commuter and utility shopper. Or were until the pedelecs arrived.

I've already noticed that, since I fitted the electric wheel at the front, my rear tyre has worn faster than before. I ride more often, I ride further, I ride faster, I ride harder, I brake harder, generally the tyre gets harder used. I think that even for your less sporting rider, this could become a pattern. I didn't have a Big Apple on the front since the motor arrived but have recently refitted one and we'll see how much the motor accelerates wear. Certainly the Kenda tyre that came with the electric wheel showed visible wear in my test of 1500km but I have nothing to compare it to, so I don't know if it was faster wear than it would have been without a motor.

It is that likely pattern Schwalbe is responding to by marking out a group of their tyres as particularly for pedelecs: sturdier tyres of known utility, including to speed freaks. It stops people from fitting flimsy tyres and then ruining Schwalbe's hard-earned good name by complaining that they didn't last. It stops people fitting narrow tyres to electric bikes and then complaining that they aren't suitable. Etc. It's an idiot barrier.

I imagine that Schwalbe are already thinking ahead and developing a range of high-speed, longlasting tyres. But I don't see how they will differ all that much from touring tyres, if your touring tyres already belong to the Marathon or especially the balloon families. What the effect of a stiffer rolling surface, possibly required to control wear at higher speeds, might be on a tyre used for conventional loaded touring is difficult to forecast: you'd presumably notice lower rolling resistance but there might be a cost (how much? who can tell?) in comfort. I expect Schwalbe will have more than one range of electric bike tyres, including some that will sacrifice everything for speed, and some that will sacrifice speed, perhaps with a limiting rating like car tyres, for comfort and longevity. The ideal loaded touring tyre would be the latter one, because the speed it sacrifices will be well above what legs alone can achieve, and the comfort and longevity would be superior to what is now available.

In pedelec tyres, as in touring tyres, within any given load capability, you can have comfort, speed, punctureproofing and longevity. Choose any three. Or choose the biggest Big Apple and get all four -- but at the cost of a custom frame to get the clearance. It is somehow odd to contemplate a future in which the Big Apple, considered with awe by everyone who's ever ridden it on demanding roads, is the lowest common denominator. (Of course, the Big Apple might turn out to be a fluke that nobody can ever match again, like the first series Michelin X...)

But this I will confidently forecast: the day of the 32mm touring bike, except for the nostalgic backwardslookers, is done. The future of touring lies in 47mm tyres and up into the balloons. The reason is that, if pedelecs are not just a passing craze — and I don't think so, the development from now on will be centred on tyres suitable for pedelecs, and for good technical reasons, pedelec tyres had better be pretty wide. The touring fraternity is simply not big enough to justify a separate development budget. They'll have to take filter-down technology from pedelecs. Since, as you know, I consider the Big Apple, and especially the folding Liteskin version with its Extraleich type 19A tube, a superb allround sporting tyre, including as a superior tarmac tourer, I can't but consider it a good thing for tourers as well that pedelecs give impetus and provide funding for new tyre development.

An amusing by-effect of this might be that your credit card tourer will become a fatter bike with an electric motor than your old-fashioned human-powered loaded tourer. Wild speculation or a wiley forecast? You tell me.

Andre Jute
Andre's World Tour of His Patch of West Cork from Murragh to Kilmacsimon Quay

Danneaux

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Re: e-Bike tires as touring tires?
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2012, 03:44:21 PM »
A fine and cogent analysis from you as always, Andre; I expected nothing less!
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...For the preservation of my blood pressure, I didn't read any further.
Sorry: I wasn't trying to wind you up, but I knew this would get a reaction. Y'see, by page-ranking, this is a primary source for many. It struck me as "wrong" in so may ways, but worth it for the contrast to the Schwalbe press announcement link, which is spare and well-reasoned as usual. Sorry for the unintentional stress test.
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An amusing by-effect of this might be that your credit card tourer will become a fatter bike with an electric motor than your old-fashioned human-powered loaded tourer. Wild speculation or a wiley forecast? You tell me.
Okay! I think your prediction is spot-on, Andre, and will happen far sooner than later.

All the best,

Dan. (...who truly appreciates the high level of knowledge and discourse this Forum and its membership provide)