replacing the Thorn Raven

[templek]

Im thinking of selling my 7 year old raven sport for another bike with the 'usual' derailleur gears. Which bike in the thorn range would be a similar class? I use my bike for high mileage road use and carry the occasional load. Is the nomad a good replacement?

[StuntPilot]

templek

I think the Sherpa would be a good choice for a Thorn with derailleur-type gears. The

I have a Raven Tour with a Rohloff hub and love it! Considered a Rohloff? The Nomad is a Rohloff bike more suited to heavy touring with more luggage. May be overkill if you only have occasional light loads.

This link gives you a good overview of the Thorn models ...

http://www.sjscycles.com/thornpdf/ThornModelOverviewHiRes.pdf

There are other more detailed brochures via this page ...

http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/models.html

Good luck with your new bike choice!

[Danneaux]

Hi Temple K,

It's been a few weeks now, and I find myself wondering if you have found your Raven replacement.

By any chance, could you share with us why you're contemplating selling your Raven Sport in favor of a derailleur bike? It seems most folks go the other way (derailleur>Rohloff), so it would be helpful to learn why it didn't work out for you. You mentioned your high-mileage road use and occasional carrying of a load; could you share why a derailleur bike better fits your needs? Your experience would be a valuable data point for me, who has never owned a Rohloff-equipped bike.

By the way, if you go for a Sherpa, I think you'll be pleased. I own one, and have found it to be a great all-'rounder capable of carrying heavy loads as well. See:
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=3896.0

Best,

Dan.

[Relayer]

Dan

Here are some of my thoughts which may or may not be like Temple K's.

I think whether one takes to a Raven [Sport] Tour and/or Rohloff has a lot to do with one's personal riding style, and what follows might also be viewed by some as heresay - but it's my view of RST/Rohloff from my perspective.

I am not a spinner, I don't have a problem with derailleurs since I have a choice of LBS's to fix them, I love drop bars, and I frequently get out of the saddle when climbing hills. I very much like getting into the hills with my bike.  

The RST is a heavy bike, the Audax UK review weighed it at 31lbs – which is significantly heavier than the Audax Mk3 which weighs in at less than 23lbs with a carbon fork.  Perhaps this is a tendency for Thorn touring bikes to be ‘overbuilt’ e.g. the base spec Amazon Rohloff supposedly weighs in at 23.3lbs.  This leads me to interchangeability, there are so many different variants of the Rohloff hub that they are not easily transferred from one bike to another; in fact the unit on the RST seems exclusively designed for use on frames with canti bosses on the seat stay and Rohloff dropouts. In the Nomad brochure one option is “Disc mount version of chosen colour Rohloff hub. Future proof your wheels...would cost a bomb to change this later“, I don’t have that future proof comfort with the internal changer hub on the RST, alternative frame options will be extremely rare in a few years.

I also find that my RST freewheels significantly slower than other riders on 700c wheels with drops, this may be down to aerodynamics (upright rider position with straight bars and wide tyres) and rolling resistance, but I suspect the Rohloff induces some drag as well – wheeling the bike forward causes the pedals to turn.

My RST is set up with straight bars, I chose them for compatibility with v-brakes. My bars are set below the height of the saddle - possibly roadie influence (and unusual compared to most straight bar tourers on here) but I like to cycle at a reasonable pace and I need the aerodynamics given the winds we get here. This does cause me some discomfort in my hands and wrists over distances - especially when I am pushing myself, sometimes even pins and needles up my forearms.  A 'sit up and beg' posture with comfort bars is not an option for me, I'm not past my mid life crisis yet!

When I am feeling good I climb out of the saddle and with straight bars this necessitates placing my hands on the bar ends, so I pretty much have to get the right gear on the Rohloff before I start; again climbing out of the saddle involves a lot of pulling on the bars and seems to exacerbate the discomfort in my hands/wrists. With drops and derailleurs my hands are on the hoods and I don't have to move them to change gears on the climb, and I have no physical discomfort. Incidentally, the Campagnolo loveliness on my audax bike can also change more then one gear at a time!

The Rohloff would be great for off-road riding but I definitely don't see it as a necessity for road riding.  The low maintenance was/is an attraction, but solutions to some of the tech problems with Rohloffs on these boards are beyond me, and I fear possibly beyond my LBS.  Sending a wheel to SJSC or even to Rohloff would be a major inconvenience.

I guess I'm a dyed in the wool derrailleur-roadie and without development of a mechanical Rohloff paddle shifter(s) operable from the hoods on drop bars. It has not been a totally successful [straight bar / Rohloff] experiment for me, and I fear selling it on would not give a reasonable return on my investment, therefore my RST may well become a dedicated winter bike and mild off road adventure/trekking bike – uses to which I find it is perfectly suited.

[Pavel]

Either the Sherpa or if you want something lighter the Club Tour - both good derailleur equipped bikes. The Tank, err ... I mean the Nomad is very specific and Rohloff only.  Is your Raven equipped with a Rohloff or derailleur?

Relayer, yours is a beautiful machine, one of the finest looking bikes I've seen.  I don't know what price you could get back from your investment but I know that the Rohloff itself is much like a harley in that you can get insane amounts back.  With the fact that the Rohloffs have gone up so much (here in the US) over the last few years, you could well get back what you paid a few years ago.  It should be pretty easy to retrograde a delaileur onto the frame, much easier I would think than the other way around - and you'd have the likely distinction of being the first to do so! 

The Club tour frame is the normal style bike that I lust after.  The frame weighs only 0.16 KG more than the Audax and seems versatile for those who want to haul some weight once in a while and go fast as well.  I'm currently wondering what kind of parts and sums could be used to build up a Club Tour so that it coms in at about 25 pounds ( sorry, I mean 11 or so KG).   

I would like to do Audax in the future as well as tour.  The thing that I am afraid that I may be discovering is that only a bike like the Nomad or Raven, set upright like a dutch bike may be the only way I can ride.  I've got an old track injury which when I have the seat low makes my spine and left arm go ice cold and numb.  That is why I may have to forget about the Club tour and Audax - I mean, why bother with a fast tourer if you are a sheet to the wind, right?

So lately I have been wondering about recumbents again.  I've ridden several models in the past and they are the most fun on wheels I've ever had and are FAST over long distances.  They are also peerless for comfort - but around here I'd be the only one on one of those contraptions and I guess I like the idea of Audax in the first place so I can ride with others.

But it is a good and valid, if somewhat pricey option that may be worth considering, just in case it may suit you as well, templek.
It seems that bicycles can be worse that chocolates to a chochoholic to some.  Not ME of course!!

Good luck. 

[Danneaux]

Here are some of my thoughts...

Jim, my compliments on one of the very best posts on the entire forum comparing the derailleur and Rohloff experiences. Your account is very relatable for me as someone who is an old derailleur-using roadie who has never ridden a Rohloff hub and wonders about the totality of the experience. I figured there must be some adjustments if not compromises compared to my own riding experience, and it helps to hear about them from someone with a similar background.

Yes, there are some things I would miss terribly -- drop handlebars with close-by or integrated shifting (addressed to a degree with the Berthoud shifter), the differences in hill-climbing technique (I also tend to stand and "honk" up hills and shift while out of the saddle when I'm feeling good, and sit-and-twiddle when fully loaded or tired). Thanks! Your account paints a fuller picture and allows me to better see how a Rohloff would affect my riding and enjoyment. As with all things, it is a compromise, but I feel better equipped to evaluate it as a result if your account. I can see I will have to approach the Planet Rohloff with a different mindset. It isn't just about lower maintenance and convenient gear spacing/selection. It is truly a system (as Andre has long told me) and must be taken on its own merit. Economics aside, I may not be quite ready for one (yet). My own little world of personal preference has its own set of ranked values and it would take some juggling for them to balance the scales in favor of a Rohloff. Interestingly, I can't envision a better daily commuting bike, but for touring and general use...I'd have to think a bit more at present and ponder the matter at greater length.

One of your most valuable points -- and one that really got me thinking -- is the one about the various configurations of Rohloff and how the frame is designed to match the shifting and braking options for the hub. Cable routing really is sort of hard-wired to the shifting option (internal vs. external box). Besides cost and the risk of the unknown, one of the things that swayed me toward a derailleur Thorn was the future and range of repair options available from a variety of suppliers rather than just one. Yes, I know Shimano has just introduced a 10-speed line with a 1:1 ratio, preventing easy mix-matching with older shifters, and I know the industry is trending toward electronic shifting. Still, there's a lot of derailleurs and cassettes out there (really Out There, where I travel) but only one Rohloff. I tend to buy bikes infrequently and use them for decades, so I was concerned about what might happen if a small firm like Rohloff should perish in these difficult economic times. If nothing else, your post is moving me to more carefully consider the frame that supports the Rohloff and to decide whether I would truly prefer an internal or external shifter at the hub. With ever-shorter product introduction and development cycles for all products, I find myself putting more time into trying to select future-proof purchases. It is a largely fruitless exercise (cloudy crystal ball), but helpful for those of us who must make a major purchase last awhile.

Thanks again, Jim. I'm sure I'll return to your post many times for reference as the discussion waxes and wanes and the pros and cons are enumerated.

All the best,

Dan.

[Cambirder]

I also find that my RST freewheels significantly slower than other riders on 700c wheels with drops, this may be down to aerodynamics (upright rider position with straight bars and wide tyres) and rolling resistance, but I suspect the Rohloff induces some drag as well.

I don't think Rohlhoff drag has any significant impact on freewheel performance, I certainly can't detect any significant difference between my RST and my Dawes Galaxy. I was also worried about switching from drops to straight bars, but I won't be going back as I've never really been comfortable riding on the drops and I no longer get pins and needles on 100km + rides.

If I was looking for something lighter  (as another bike rather than a replacement) I think I might go the whole hog and go with a Carbon frame.

[Relayer]

Either the Sherpa or if you want something lighter the Club Tour - both good derailleur equipped bikes. The Tank, err ... I mean the Nomad is very specific and Rohloff only.  Is your Raven equipped with a Rohloff or derailleur?

...

The Club tour frame is the normal style bike that I lust after.  The frame weighs only 0.16 KG more than the Audax and seems versatile for those who want to haul some weight once in a while and go fast as well.  I'm currently wondering what kind of parts and sums could be used to build up a Club Tour so that it coms in at about 25 pounds ( sorry, I mean 11 or so KG).  

...
Good luck.  

I also think about the Club Tour a lot, there is a very fine example here:-

http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=1829.0

Incidentally, that one was owned by a gentleman who went from Rohloff to Derailleurs.

Dammit!! I need to stop looking at that bike  

[Pavel]

The club tour?  I need to stop looking as well.  It seems to be less popular than the other Thorns, possibly because it does not dovetail perfectly into any of the extremes?  I am draw towards it because it is the one that is reputed to be the bike most likely to want to go in a straight line.   I like that in a bike.

I like both the Rohloff and deraileurs.  I just don't like hills with deraleurs as much because I have to think sometimes.  Takes me out of my trance. When they develop the 22 speed rear sprocket so I never have lament why I have to change front rings at the worst time - I will never curse my shimanos again.

I only wonder about some of the conventional wisdom's accruing on the net. I for example find that shifting under full power, especially out of the saddle is a poor experience on any derailleur I've ever tried.  It is much better on short arm derailleurs it seems (by my limited experience - I mean it could be other factors such as rear stay length or the quality of the part) but I find the gear changes under full power give a horrible crunch, often mis-shift or double shift and then shift back and the kick to the rear wheel has sent the bike several inches sideways a few times.  So I think that fable is suspect. 

But it is a bit unfortunate that it often feels like a deraileur versus Rohloff thing.  In that spirit, I want to repeat that they are both great.  It is also possible to over-think this.  Especially if one has not ridden the Rohloff.  That would be like picking a wife or friend from a catalogue based on the specs!

There doesn't have to be a best.  Steak or lobster?  Both please!   

[Danneaux]

Steak or lobster?  Both please!

So...what about a Mercury, Pavel? See: http://www.sjscycles.com/thornpdf/ThornMercuryHiRes.pdf

Best,

Dan.

[Pavel]

I have though of that Dan, but there is something so fine looking about the club tour that now it is what I tend to see myself on.  I have enough parts to build up a frame, except I would want a better rear wheel.  I think I need to get much more fit, not just for the sake of fitness but so I can be more experienced to judge better what suits best.  It's always nice to dream and Thorn seems to give plenty of fodder!  We both have bikes that are the clydesdales of the cycling world I believe.  They are strong and heavy loads makes them shine.  Ever wonder about a quarter horse in the stable as well?  What would that be, then, if it were to be?

[Danneaux]

Ever wonder about a quarter horse in the stable as well?

Hi Pavel!

I have gone that route, but I seem to have a fatal flaw in that all my bicycles -- regardless of intent, origin, or provenance -- end up becoming touring bikes, 'cos...that's what I do.

Oh, it starts out innocently enough when I figure I can "just" add a handlebar bag or maybe "only" a lightweight, Tubus Fly-like rear rack. Have to have something to hold the odd set of arm warmers or wind jacket and perhaps a sandwich or two and jersey pockets alone top-out quickly. Then, there's water. One bottle won't cut it around here where refill possibilities are nil. So another gets added. And another. Bottles grow from .5l to .75 to 1l. Then, there's lights when the 300-400km day ride keeps me out after dark. And gearing for the mountains (any journey 'cept due north Out of Here also means Up to leave the confines of the Willamette Valley), so those get tweaked. Off goes the corncob cassette in favor of one resembling a funnel. Off comes the Double in favor of a triple. Those wonderful narrow tires don't seem quite as nice when they're nibbling through deep gravel or following goat-trails, and the cross-section can only grow so much when confined by racing calipers. It gets wet and I crave fenders, andandand so it goes.

Next thing you know...Touring Bike. Trouble is, it's a Touring Bike That Doesn't Handle So Well, 'cos it's a racing bike that has seen vivisection and only the frame is light -- too light for all the other appurtenances hung upon it, compromising its thoroughbred dignity. Imagine a racehorse hooked to a plow, and you've got the picture. Better to start with a draft horse.

The thing is, I've really tried, made the effort, and drank the sweet liquor of the Lightweight Racer and...I don't seem to be up to it. A bit like the wino who finds a some aged Glenlivet, I don't seem to be really able to appreciate what I have. My experience has spanned the Steel Era, and I came to terms with myself before Aluminum and Carbon took hold, but  have no doubt my strange affliction would hold sway with them as well. It's not nature vs. nurture; it seems to be genetically hard-wired and I can't fight it. If it's a disease or disorder, it missed the DSM-IV.

My solution has been Touring Bike Light and Touring Bike Heavy, purpose-built all-rounders at both ends of the spectrum that overlap generously in the middle. The lighter version handles superbly unladen and with up to about 40 pounds of cargo (50 in a pinch) for the typical 'Merkin-style touring. It is also my rando bike, and my preferred choice for long 400km+ day rides and I don't feel caned and beaten on awakening the next morning. Sherpa does the same, riding nicely unladen, but excelling at hauling an excess of avoirdupois. Of all the bikes in my stable, I've come down to three I ride the most: The Sherpa at about 41lbs/18.6kg for All-'Round Heavy Class, the Centurion ProTour 15 at 32lbs/14.5kg for All-'Round Lightweight Class, and the tandem at 46lbs/21kg (yes, I am aware Tandem is only a little heavier than Sherpa). When I can fully reconcile myself to that fact, I think I'll part from the others.

I think I'm There.

Best,

Dan.

[Pavel]

very eloquent Dan.  However I would like to gently point out that you have overlooked another hard wired detail and that is that for some, (And I fear you may be the poster child here) the idea of "still breathing" and "being there" - are mutually exclusive! 

[Danneaux]

And I fear you may be the poster child here

...Oh, I just bounce well! 

All the best, Pavel my friend! 

Dan.