Advice on touring frameset please!

[La Fringale]

Hi everybody,

Happy New Year!

I am so glad I discovered this brand and this forum. I am sure you guys will be able to help me.

OK, I started touring 10 years ago. A friend invited me to join her. I then concerted my Marin Muirwoods commuter into a touring bike. I have been using it since but last summer I realized the limitation of the frame. Fully loaded, the frame flexed a lot. So I am on the market for my dream bike. So far, I have narrowed my search to two brands : Thorn and Co-motion.

I live in the middle of Canada (Winnipeg, Manitoba), I have dual citizenship (born French) and used to live in Birmingham and Bath.

I am looking for a steel frameset, 26'', really sturdy, rim brakes, no Rohloff.

The Nomad seems to fit the bill but is it available for a standard derailleur?

Thanks for the answers and expect more questions to come!

François

PS. Photo taken in Cuba.

     

[JimK]

I think the Thorn Sherpa is what you are looking for. It is basically the Nomad but with a derailleur instead of the Rohloff.

Shipping to Canada is a lot more attractive than to the USA!!

Ten years of touring! Wonderful! You will really appreciate a bike like the Sherpa!

[Danneaux]

Hello, François!

I recently purchased a Thorn Sherpa myself, and I faced many of the same issues and choices.  I dearly loved my Miyata 1000LT expedition touring bike, but found its frame -- perfect for lesser loads -- was simply outmatched for the weight of water and food I needed for extended, solo desert touring.  I wished for a derailleur-equipped, expedition-grade tourer to replace it; 26" wheels were a requirement for durability and ease of replacement.

Although I had long known of Thorn and followed this forum as a guest, I looked first at local offerings including Co-Motion, located in the town where I live. Over the years, I have paid a number of visits to their facilities, and have spoken to both Dwan Shepard and Dan Vrimoet, principals in the firm. They are very nice people, easy to talk with, and eager to share their design philosophy and innovations.  I have been pleased to follow their rise in the market, and their current facility is a model for small-capacity frame design and production. Their early experience was largely in tandems, and they have successfully adapted those heavy-duty designs to their single touring bikes. They are common locally and highly valued by their owners. As a hobbyist framebuilder who can take all the time I need, I think their small-production build quality, fit, and finish are very good and their custom work excellent.  I am sure they could help advise you on a frame to fit your needs. They do offer true custom sizing and component specs at extra cost if you have specific needs than cannot be met otherwise.

I feel fortunate to live in an area with a number of custom builders, and I also gave some serious thought to building my own expedition touring frame but couldn't meet the timeline for completion.  A Co-Motion would have been more expensive outright, but I would have saved extra costs due to the exchange rate, credit card conversion fees, import duties, and shipping, which altogether added nearly USD$1000 to the price of my Thorn.  In the end, costs would have been fairly comparable.  I have seen Co-Motion and ridden other local offerings, and it took a leap of faith to buy Thorn's Sherpa sight unseen and unridden.

Even so, I selected a Thorn Sherpa as better suited to my needs and preferences, and I have been happy so far in all my unladen riding and heavily loaded test rides.  The bike has handled well on poor roads with very heavy loads, and it is also pleasant and surprisingly fast unladen. The real test will come this Spring when we leave together on the first of a series of long tours. Though everyone configures their bikes differently to suit their own needs, mine is proving to be all I hoped for. Some photos and a description of it are here: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=3896.msg17095#msg17095

Among the features tipping the scales toward the Sherpa were my preference for:

- Standard dropout spacing and component specifications/sizes for easy replacement globally
- Frame design, sizing, dimensions and braze-ons of the Sherpa
- Rim brakes instead of discs
- A fork with curved/raked blades rather than a steerer crown-offset/straight-blade design
- A production frame/overall bike spec that better fit my needs

I chose based on my personal preferences and what better suited my needs, as anyone should.  You've narrowed your choices down to two firms among many that produce frames well-suited to your requirements.  Go with the one that best suits you and you'll be fine.  Since you're on this forum, I can endorse the Sherpa, currently Thorn's only derailleur bike in this heavy-touring class. Your Marin Muirwoods is a popular conversion for this purpose, but it is not purpose-built as is the Sherpa.  As Jim mentioned, the costs and duties shipped to Canada are likely to be far less than they were for me here in the States.

Best of luck, and feel free to ask if we can help with your questions.  This Forum is a wonderful resource comprised of knowledgeable, experienced, and friendly people.

Dan.

[Danneaux]

François,

Looking closely at your Marin Muirwoods, I can offer a further suggestion --

You may wish to purchase only a Thorn Sherpa frame and transfer the bulk of your components to it, a considerable savings over the expense of buying and importing a complete Sherpa. Your present frame could then be sold to recoup some of your costs.

Your present bike appears to be very nicely equipped.

Best,

Dan.

[La Fringale]

Hi Dan,

Thanks for the advice.

I will probably go for a Sherpa frame as soon as I have taken the measurements I need. I will transfer the parts of the Marin but will get wheels built locally. There is a very good wheel builder in town that convinced me that White Industries hubs would be perfect. Rear wheel will have 40 spokes, front wheel 36. Look at this piece of art: http://www.whiteind.com/rearhubs/cassettehubs.html.

I have looked also at the Ripio which probably would be closer to the Marin geometry. I guess I could do some off-road/rough roads touring and still use it on the road with slicks. The contrary would not be true with the Sherpa. The Ripio seems to be made to carry a heavier load. Thinking, thinking... 

I am still undecided about brakes though. I have heard pros and cons about V-brakes and cantis. First reaction would be to think that V-brakes and parts might be harder to find in some countries (I gave away all my spare parts in Cuba), but does that still hold true? Cuba is probably an exception and I guess V-brakes are found on any cheap bike nowadays.

In terms of performance, one would think that V-brakes are more powerful, correct me if I am wrong.

FL

PS. Nice bike you have.           
 

[Danneaux]

Hi François,

Your plan for a frame swap sounds like a good one; the next task is deciding just which Thorn best suits your needs. Looking at your present setup, I'm not sure the Ripio would be as well suited to carrying front panniers unless you were to substitute a rigid fork with rack mounts. I'm sure Thorn could better advise on the resulting geometry, but the rigid Mt.-Tura fork ( http://www.sjscycles.com/thornpdf/ThornMtTuraForkHiRes.pdf ) might make this possible should you wish to forgo a suspension fork in favor of ready cargo-carrying capacity at the front. Forum member Bruce equipped his Ripio this way; sadly, it was stolen last June.  Pic here: https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/UQbuzLwxg2N7UMrIqIhW8c2tOr9h5d9lDbe0Fov_PSs?feat=directlink  If you go with a Ripio and sus-fork, there is a Tubus front rack available to fit: http://www.ortliebusa.com/CartGenie/prod-83.htm At least one version of the Old Man Mountain racks could likely be adapted to a sus-fork as well: http://www.oldmanmountain.com/Pages/RackPages/FrontRacks.html

Have you read the thread on Ripio sizing, here?: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=2694.0

Yes! Those White hubs are gorgeous, and I am sure you'll be happy with them. The high-low flanges should build up quickly and easily, and White have a good reputation for reliability. A 26" rim with 40-holes will be just about bombproof and extremely reliable. For reference, I use 26", 36-hole rims on my tandem and have carried well over 600lbs/272kg touring loaded on rough roads and gravel with no wheel problems. The previous owners weighed 750/340kg pounds in rider weight alone on the same wheels. Adequate strength should be possible with 36 spokes and replacement rims and hubs would be more readily available.

As for brakes...I can't speak for everyone, and each camp has its ardent adherents. In all fairness, each type of brake (v-brakes, hydraulic rim brakes, and mechanical and hydraulic disc brakes) has advantages and disadvantages. That said, there were factors that swayed me in favor of v-brakes (besides being standard equipment on my Sherpa):

1) While there appear to be many proprietary designs of disc brake pads, v-brake pads are universally interchangeable, making replacements easier to find.

2) Rim brakes seem to last a bit longer than disc pads, based on the anecdotal accounts I've read (I myself have no experience with discs, so cannot comment based on personal experience).

3) V-brakes with cartridge holders allow for carrying spare pads in a minimum of space. Replacements are quick and easy with minimal readjustment required.

4) V-brakes are mechanically simple and extremely reliable.  They are also exposed to grit, but some users still report they may be more reliable than discs in gritty, grimy conditions -- contrary to what one might expect.  Avid BB7s seem to be widely regarded as a good choice in mechanical discs. You may wish to read an article on the subject on Vik's "Lazy Randonneur" blog: http://www.thelazyrandonneur.com/  Vik has been a member of this list for some time, and is a nice fellow and a valuable resource.

5) Discs can be easily bent/warped/damaged in transport compared to v-brakes, and can be problematic in that way.

6) A rim is really a huge brake disc, and has greater swept area than any hub disc I know of, with greater resulting heat dissipation.  On the other hand, with discs, none of that heat goes into the rim and they don't cause rim wear.  If we consider the longer hub-to-brake distance of a rim track versus a disc, then the greater moment arm of the v-brake should provide more powerful braking, ceteris parabus (all things being the same).  Unfortunately, they are not the same, and no one brake excels over the other across all conditions.

Lots to ponder, indeed! What a fun dilemma...

Best,

Dan.