Spoke Patterns and Spoke Numbers

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So, whats the opinions here?

I know that when built by the same hand, both 3 cross I understand that 36 spoke wheels are stronger than 32.

Now then, Would a 32 spoke wheel built 4 cross compensate for the loss of those 4 spokes, only 2 per side?

I guess so long as it doesnt pass the 'tangent' stage to the hub it probably would be stronger that 32 3 cross?

Any thoughts?
(I ask as I have most of the parts to build a rear wheel 32 hole and all the parts to build a front wheel)

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lively in here eh....

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pah, if this was about tents you'd all answer.....maybe 

[julk]

If the other non replys are like me, wheelbuilding is an art left to the bike shop...

I suspect you are the expert and we look to you for guidance.

[STATO]

First off ill say ive never ridden, built or even seen a 4-cross wheel in the flesh.  Im an ameuter wheel builder and not the most skilled however ill happilly throw myself off cliffs on my mtb wheels or hit 50+mph down a col on my road wheels without worry as im confident the components used are the best you can buy (or at least ones i can afford ;0).  Its really not that hard a skill, and using a good wheelbuilding book as a guide ANYONE can build a strong wheel.  I reccomend Roger Mussons guide (www.wheelpro.co.uk).


The benefit of running 4-cross over 3-cross (as i understand it) is the lower tension in the spokes, however the use of high quality double butted spokes should allow enough 'stretch' for this to not really make an impact.

Obviously this lower tension is also a benefit in a 36 spoke wheel but the other advantages of a 36 spoke wheel are the ability to handle larger side loads due to the rim being more supported and the ability to stay true when a spoke breaks (an issue if you run rim brakes).  However modern rims tend to be MUCH stronger and stiffer than when wheels were all being built 36spoke, and these issues are not as much of a problem as they used to be.  I have built, ridden and thoroughly beaten many 32*3cross wheels in my time and if you use appropriate good quality DB spokes and a decent rim then you should have no issues at all.  

Hope that helps :0)
Rich.

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I was thinking along the same lines.

I'm planning a trip to india and was trying to decide between using 32 spoke wheels with discs or building some 36 spoke wheels and using rim brakes (or discs as it happens). I origonally wanted to use discs and the wheels off my mtb but have kind of decided that 819 tubeless rims would make spoke replacement a big pain in the bum

As with everything there is a fine line between functionality and weight. You want everything to be as light as possible without sacrificing the longevity.

I now thinking of a lighter Rim, say mavic 719 (as opposed t a ryhno) built into 36 spoke hubs but using quality DT double butted spokes. Then coupling this with quality V brakes or cable discs. Discs work better, that I am convinced of, but V's are considerably lighter.
On the rim subject, I cant help but wonder 'todays' 32 spoke mid weight rim is as strong as a 36 spoke heavyweight of the past using older technology (which many people tour on). I might look into the weight differences a little more.

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UPDATE:

I mucked about with 4 cross and found that the spokes pretty much crossed the heads of the ajacent spokes, with light contact. I felt this would cause fretting so I'm going to build 3 cross. Hope XC front / xt rear - Mavic XM719 wheels, should be light and strong.

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    The bicycle manufacturing industry in the USA went to 32 spokes instead of 36 because it is more profitable. You do not really save weight with less spokes. The rims for a 32 spoke wheel had to be stiffer so they would stay straight. Initially there was no savings in weight. I believe the English bikes had 32 up front and 40 on the back until everybody got greedy and went to 32. The lateral strength of a 36 or 40 spoked wheel is much greater. This means less maintenance for you and less expense later down the road. Now on a very large diameter hub like the Rohloff  where there is no or very little dish 32 spokes is strong enough.
    I build my tandem hubs 4 cross and cross at three and four. I use 48 spokes on Phil Wood hubs.