Author Topic: OEM axel plate in non-Rohloff-specific droput. Is this going to work?  (Read 2543 times)

AlexRa

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The OEM axel plate fits fine in the horizontal drop out on my bike. It’s not a Rohloff specific dropout. But it fits. The bike is a steel frame Surly Cross Check. 
Is there any reason this won’t work and provide the required torque anchoring? 
Keen to do this as it means I could loose the long torque arm. 
(Also I know it will mean I need some other way of achieving chain tension).

Andre Jute

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Re: OEM axel plate in non-Rohloff-specific droput. Is this going to work?
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2024, 11:29:33 PM »
There's no reason you shouldn't do it if
-- the little ovoid nub on the Rohloff fits in the channel without play
-- there is enough steel there to resist deforming the track end
-- you can arrange chain tension some other way.

The obvious way, on a Thorn forum anyway, to achieve the last requirement is to find an eccentric bottom bracket shell to fit inside the one on the Surly, plus a bottom bracket of small enough diameter to fit the eccentric bottom bracket shell. Otherwise you're going to be up for welding in an oversize bottom bracket shell: ouch.

However, there's another way, often used on bikes with track ends like yours and Shimano Nexus and other hub gearboxes, called a "t-nut", which allows the axle to slide in the track frame-end (what you call a "horizontal dropout"), thereby tensioning the chain. Bernd Rohloff didn't like this, presumably because it didn't meet his engineering standards, but a cyclist in a bind finds a way. I've never seen it done on a Rohloff but I have two other bikes with this arrangement, and it works, albeit not as conveniently and precisely as the expensively over-engineered Rohloff house design for sliding axle hangers, which Rohloff put in the public domain. Rohloff axle nuts are on a low-torque regime, so to provide positive location you might have to rough up the metal on the outside of the track ends a little (not inside the channel).

Note that chain tension, as long as it is on the loose side -- never, ever, on the tight side -- is less critical with a Rohloff than on any other hub gearbox I can think of. You're supposed to motivate a Rohloff with a much slacker chain than people cross-badging from derailleurs feel comfortable with. You may be able, depending on the exact dimensions of your bike, to arrange a correctly loose chain for all conditions of your fave chains with nothing more than a quick release half-link for even a full link. It seems to me worth a try.

Oh, for a time when even a small boy could understand and remember all the ins and outs of bicycles!
« Last Edit: May 02, 2024, 01:24:53 AM by Andre Jute »

martinf

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If you can't use the horizontal dropout to achieve chain tension, there is a simple bodge that I use on my one remaining full size bike without a Chainglider:

https://surlybikes.com/parts/singleator

The bike on which I use this is an old VTT from the early 1990's designed for derailleurs, it has vertical dropouts and no means of fitting an eccentric bottom bracket without major surgery. I use this as a visitor bike at our island flat. It has a Nexus premium 8 hub, but the system would work just as well with a Rohloff.

I fitted the Singleator pushing up on the chain, with just enough tension to stop the chain falling off. So the extra friction caused by the one Singleator pulley is not really noticeable, in theory it should be half the friction from a normal dérailleur, maybe less as the chain doesn't bend very much.

The downsides for me are :

- one pulley to clean (trivial).
- not possible to fit a Chainglider (a nuisance because this means more chain maintenance).

There are other brands of one-pulley tensioner that would probably work just as well.

Even an old derailleur would work (done this in the past), but it was more of a hassle to set up and clean.


AlexRa

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Thanks everyone.
I guess my question is - is the torque going to bend the drop out? Or is this probably ok? Anyone done /tried anything similar?

mickeg

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The OEM axel plate fits fine in the horizontal drop out on my bike. It’s not a Rohloff specific dropout. But it fits. The bike is a steel frame Surly Cross Check.
Is there any reason this won’t work and provide the required torque anchoring?
Keen to do this as it means I could loose the long torque arm.
(Also I know it will mean I need some other way of achieving chain tension).

If I recall correctly, Cross Check is not a disc brake bike, thus the frame is not designed to take the torque from a Rohloff.  If you are in first gear and pedaling hard up a hill, there is a lot of torque on the frame.

I did an internet search for broken bicycle frames with roholff hubs and here is an example:
https://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=14014.0

Dan had a good post on that thread with reference to Rohloff site:
...
...
Quote
How exactly does a Rohloff increase torque anyway?
The Rohloff's torque reaction arm or tab serves to counter the forward torque applied to the hub under drive. The internal gearing of the hub also multiplies torque on the tab, so there is additional stress applied to the portion of the frame where the torque arm or tab is attached/contained. Rohloff provide a good explanation here:
https://www.rohloff.de/en/service/handbook/speedhub/assembly/torque-anchoring#c26000

Best,

Dan.

Rohloffs have been around for much longer than bike disc brakes, but disc brakes also put a lot of torque on the frame, so there have been other options created to mount the hub on disc brake hub frames.  In your case the torque arm is the only option if the frame was not designed for the torque.

mickeg

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Looks like you asked the question that I was typing the answer to before you asked, just as I was about to hit post.

WorldTourer

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The Surly Straggler, the successor to the discontinued Cross Check that has the same basic geometry but runs disc brakes, is generally regarded as a Rohloff-ready frame. It would be interesting to know whether the dropouts on the Straggler really were beefed up in the processing of including disc-brake mounts, compared to the old Cross Check.

PH

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Thanks everyone.
I guess my question is - is the torque going to bend the drop out? Or is this probably ok? Anyone done /tried anything similar?
I'd say probably OK, but do you want to ride around without the certainty?  If it were me, I'd put the money you are going to spend on the trick EBB towards having a framebuilder swap the dropouts for proper sliding Rohloff ones. 

JohnR

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I see that the sliding dropouts face forwards https://www.tritoncycles.co.uk/frames-forks-c6/road-frames-c47/cross-check-frameset-p17171/s50822. I would be happy to use the OEM axleplate provided the support block is to the rear of the axle (ie deepest into the U-shaped dropout) and the axle remains well within the dropout. The other way round might also be acceptable depending on the thickness of metal in the dropout. How long is the dropout compared to the length of the axleplate?

Rohloff's guidance on torque anchoring is at https://www.rohloff.de/en/service/handbook/speedhub/assembly/torque-anchoring. I once got stuck into some material strength calculations before deciding that if one of the torque anchor options is a bolt through a rack support hole then the force can't be massive compared with the strength of steel otherwise the M5 bolt holding one of these https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/hub-spares/rohloff-oem2-adapter-for-m5-fender-luggage-rack-bolt-8552/ would shear off.

AlexRa

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Yes! This is exactly what I was thinking. Surely if it’s acceptable to use a luggage rack eyelet for torque anchoring then this must be ok. The drop out looks may more substantial than the eyelet.

Unfortunately the only way it fits is with the axel right at the back of the drop out and the axel plate tab forward of it. It looks like it should work the other way around. But it doesn’t


JohnR

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One of the drawings at https://www.rohloff.de/en/service/handbook/oem shows that the end of the OEM axleplate is 32mm from the axle centre provided I have interpreted it correctly. How long is the dropout? The Rohloff guidance I noted previously shows that the worst torque condition is in bottom gear and the torque is backwards relative to the wheel rotation. This means that the force from the axleplate will be pushing upwards into the dropout assembly which looks quite strong. If in gears 12, 13 and 14 then the torque is in the opposite direction but is a much smaller force.

The Rohloff documentation somewhere gives a design loading which I concluded represented an overweight gorilla riding the bike (or maybe it's the tandem case with two strong riders?). I was happy to adopt a substandard solution on my Rohloff bike on the basis that I'm at the lighter end of the weight range. My opinion is therefore that this will work provided the support block remains in the dropout under all chain adjustment positions and you don't weigh 140kg. Given that the chain length can be adjusted in increments of 1" (25.4mm) unless using a half link, it might be necessary to choose the chainring / sprocket combination which provides the required gearing while keeping the axle close to the back of the dropout.