Plus flat

[JimK]

I've had Marathon Plus Tour ... or was it Tour Plus? ... anyway, I've had those tires on for years, probably since 2015. They still look like they have lots of life left, tons of tread. But I started getting flats! I live in serious goathead country & for sure the tires looked like pin-cushions, but up until a few months ago I'd only got a few flats, from maybe monster sheet metal screws, stuff way beyond reasonable for a tire to manage. My best guess is that somehow a bunch of thorns were slowly working through the tread... of course when I fix a flat, I triple check the inside of the tire for any pointy things. I never found any... but I imagine some very fine pointy things were eluding my fingers.

Anyway, today was the end of the road for those tires. I put on Marathon Supremes... which ought to be faster... with Michelin Protek Max tubes. Those tube are pre-filled with sealant and have other features that they say will reduce flats. We shall see.

Years ago I stockpiled a bunch of Schwalbe tires of various sorts... the Supremes came out of that stock. So they might be eight years old or so. Inner tubes, hmmm, somehow I go through those so my stock is a bit slim. The Protek tubes I got a few months back... my wife got a new e-bike so I ordered some tubes for that & just tacked the Protek tubes onto the order. I should have bought more than two - now I see they're out of stock at the place I bought them! With luck they'll last a while! 

[steve216c]

I am curious. Were you repairing or replacing the tubes when you got your flats? Could the flats have been caused from something inside the rim if the tyre itself seemed free of anything noticeably sharp?
I have run Marathon Plus till no tread left or to where sidewalks were beginning to bulge, and almost all flats I have had were caused from debris I had accidentally introduced to inside only once from very long nail from outside. This includes pinch flats when mounting tyre badly, sharp shards after drilling out for different valve, poor rim tape quality or fitting etc. But even poor quality patches hae caused repuncturing as with 6 bar, the patches are pushed to their limits.
Finally, slow puncture s might actually be valves rather than real punctures.
Whatever the cause, hope the new tyres hold for a while before your next incident

[JimK]

Thanks, that's a great list of possibilities! I did a bit of patching but also put in some new tubes... when I was patching I did find the small holes... I haven't been so careful to note the position of the tire when I take it off, to be able to infer where the pointy thing must have been or even still be, from the location of the hole in the tube. For sure I am very surprised to be getting flats all of a sudden... there is surely a cause! Hmmm, actually, when I took the old tires and tubes off today, I just left the tubes in the tires, so I preserved the connection... if I locate the leaks, I should be able to find the problem with the tires. Yeah, another surprising thing is to have the front and rear go leaky at the same time. Perhaps I rode through something really nasty. Those little bits of wire from truck tires, that's certainly possible. I don't remember riding anyplace out of my usual pattern, but then maybe a truck tire exploded out there somewhere and that's what did it. I do ride though a major trucking depot quite regularly!

I found a place selling those fancy Michelin inner tubes, at least they listed them for sale, so I ordered a few spares. Whether they'll actually get shipped.... we shall see!

[JohnR]

I would be worried about thorns slowly working their way through the puncture protection layer. in those Marathons. It might be possible to find these by looking carefully at the outside for the entry points. I would then try to push them through with something thin and blunt but, as a minimum, push far enough to smooth off the sharp ends.

[PH]

My best guess is that somehow a bunch of thorns were slowly working through the tread

If I recall, when Schwalbe introduced the Plus tyres a large part of the marketing was about how the plus layer ejected objects rather than allowing them to work their way in.  If I've remembered it right, they made a bigger thing about that than the inability of them to be penetrated.  I wore mine out without a single puncture, I'd promised myself I'd bin them the first time they did and was looking forward to the day.

I imagine some very fine pointy things were eluding my fingers.

I have a scar across the tip of a finger from finding a pointy thing
I've since found the better way to find them is to run a light cloth or tissue around the inside and feel for it snagging.

[JimK]

If I recall, when Schwalbe introduced the Plus tyres a large part of the marketing was about how the plus layer ejected objects rather than allowing them to work their way in. 

Ha! I don't know how many thorns they eject, but an awful lot stay stuck in there. I pull out the ones I can, but some get so deep in there...

I have a scar across the tip of a finger from finding a pointy thing
I've since found the better way to find them is to run a light cloth or tissue around the inside and feel for it snagging.

I have certainly cut myself, but never too severely. Thanks for that cloth snagging suggestion, that is perfect!

[steve216c]

Just another thought regarding the tubes with sealant. I was running such tubes with cheap tyres before I switched to Marathon tyres thinking that the sealant would simply fix any holes and I'd be riding into the sunset without even knowing I'd had a puncture. The reality (at least with the tubes with sealant) was that if you need to deflate the tyre, the sealant can mess up the valve and stop it sitting and sealing correctly. Hmmm, since I ride Magura rim brakes I need to deflate to get my tyre on/off easily. Easier with V-Brakes!
I did learn how to remove, clean and reinsert auto type valves as my car has a sealant repair kit which has such a key to remove the valve. But this light didn't go on before I'd ditched what were probably a couple of good tubes that wouldn't hold air in more than a day.

The other thing I noted was when I'd put a non-sealant tube in place where a sealant had been, was that the whole wheel felt somewhat less sluggish when riding. Not sure if the added weight or the effect of the gunk in the sealant being swung in the centrifugal force, but there was perceived resistance which disappeared when I stopped using sealant tubes on the same tyres. Since switching to Marathon Plus tyres I've not bothered with the sealant tubes and I've been lucky to have ridden more km with less problems probably due to the increased protection of the smart-guard layer in the Marathons.

That said, I am sure there are locations where both resistant tyres and sealant tubes compliment each other- and if you have had foreign bodies breaking through the guard, then it may make sense to keep that option open. For me, at least with the Marathon Plus tyres I will occasionally inspect and remove sharps from the outer tyres when I spot them- but otherwise rely what the tyres mostly deliver- i.e. a puncture free and care free ride. 

[JimK]

Thanks, yeah, I have been resisting the sealant up to now. Here in goathead country the sealant seems to be the method of choice. I got a lot of use out of those Plus tires... maybe only 30% of the tread life though! I'll see how the sealant works. I do believe I have a spare set of Plus tires stashed in the big pile, just in case!

I have V-brakes and can take the wheels off without deflating. Thanks for that warning though!

[UKTony]

Digressing slightly, has anyone ever tried to repair cuts in tyres (semi slick Supremes in my case) above the area of the puncture  protection layer to help prevent the damage spreading and/or more grit etc lodging in the cut and possibly penetrating the protection layer.  I’d considered opening up the cut and dropping in a glob of rubber solution from my puncture repair kit then holding the surfaces of the cut together until dry. However not sure if this rubber solution would be up to the job and adhere to the tyre rubber. Any thoughts?

[PH]

Digressing slightly, has anyone ever tried to repair cuts in tyres (semi slick Supremes in my case) above the area of the puncture  protection layer to help prevent the damage spreading and/or more grit etc lodging in the cut and possibly penetrating the protection layer.

I sometimes drop a blob of superglue into them, though I'm not convinced it does any good, so it's one of those things done on the basis of not doing any harm.  There's quite a lot of structure under the tread, unless I've damaged that I'm not too concerned.  There have been tyres that as a precaution I've moved from a bike I might be a long way from home on to one I'm not. I don't recall any such tyre ever letting me down, though if that structure is damaged I stop using them.

[steve216c]

Digressing slightly, has anyone ever tried to repair cuts in tyres (semi slick Supremes in my case) above the area of the puncture  protection layer to help prevent the damage spreading and/or more grit etc lodging in the cut and possibly penetrating the protection layer.  I’d considered opening up the cut and dropping in a glob of rubber solution from my puncture repair kit then holding the surfaces of the cut together until dry. However not sure if this rubber solution would be up to the job and adhere to the tyre rubber. Any thoughts?

I have had this very thought on more than one occasion, and also thought about using the rubber cement to help fill the hole. There are still the occasional car tyre specialist who will plug a nail hole on a car tyre and put in an inner tube rather than force you to buy a brand new tyre for your car. But plugging a hole on a bicycle? Probably not a bad idea as a removed nail could still allow easier ingress of small stones into the tyre rubber pushing deeper and deeper in- potentially leading to a flat down the line.

I haven't tried this to date because Murphy's law dictates that a puncture will always happen on the dirtiest and wettest of days, and your tyres will be covered in damp road crud when you patch the tube. As we all know, surfaces ought to be clean and dry to bond properly. And by the time the sun is shining and surfaces are cleaner and dryer than before, if you are like me, you'll forget completely about trying to fill the hole with rubber solution. At least until it is a cold and rainy day and a new puncture reminds you of what you had meant to do way back when 

[John Saxby]

has anyone ever tried to repair cuts in tyres (semi slick Supremes in my case) above the area of the puncture  protection layer

I repaired a couple of sidewall cuts in two Supremes a few years ago.  Both were emergency repairs to hold until I could replace the tire.

One cut was really a deep scrape, not too much of the inner casing disturbed.  On that, I used a tire patch on the inside and Sugru to fill the outside deep scrape.

The second one was a cut right through the outer casing.  On that, I made two repairs:  Used a tire patch on the inside to pull the edges together, and Sugru again on the outside. On the inside, I then glued (with tire patch glue) a plasticized Canadian $5 bill lengthwise over the whole plot.  That held for 50 kms until I reached the next town with a bike shop (Ystad, on the SE Swedish coast.)

I've since learned that the plasticized-bank-note drill is a Recognized Macgyver Bodge. And, that Filzer make a patch for just such occasions.  I have a packet of those in my toolkit--3, if memory serves, but I can't recall 'cos since buying them six years ago, they've warded off all Stray Sidewall-Cutting Nasties.

[Danneaux]

For ages, I've carried beta-cyanoacrylate (the "super" super glue that also works on wood, leather, and rubber) in my touring kit. I have used it successfully to repair smallish tire cuts and always put on a dab whenever I pull glass or a nail or staple from the tire so the hole is sealed. Fortunately, some moisture helps it cure faster (in the low humidity of America's Great Basin deserts, I actually have to exhale moisture from my breath at close range on the glue so it will set up more quickly).

Included in my kit with the beta-cyanoacrylate is a small sachet of baking soda. It accelerates curing and combines with the super glue to fill gaps and makes a kind of very hard plastic you can build up in layers. I have done so to make field repairs on plastic bicycle components that developed cracks around mounting holes and such; many are still in use after years.

For those who use the glue regularly, you can accelerate ("kick") curing time by making your own accelerator to neutralize the acids intended to slow curing in the original formula. Just mix 1/2/2.4ml teaspoon of baking soda into 1/4 cup of purified water and apply it to the “dry” portion of the joint you intend to glue. It really speeds up bonds on wood and other such porous materials and prevents soak-in. If needed, you can adjust the baking soda component upward to about 1tsp/4.9ml.

Best,

Dan.

[PH]

For ages, I've carried beta-cyanoacrylate (the "super" super glue that also works on wood, leather, and rubber) in my touring kit.

I'm a bit disappointed Dan, I thought we were going to get a funny story about being stuck somewhere in the middle of nowhere for three nights glued to a tyre...

[Danneaux]

I'm a bit disappointed Dan...

  There's still time. 

All the best,

Dan. (...who has sometimes found himself in other sorts of sticky situations while touring)