Author Topic: Look Mum no hands wobble  (Read 5350 times)

bikerwaser

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Look Mum no hands wobble
« on: August 09, 2016, 07:08:39 PM »
I have a wobble/shimmy on my Sherpa.

It's only there when I take my hands off the bars. I like to do this a fair bit to give myself a rest on long straight sections when there's no possibility of any danger.

It's also only when there's no weight on the front. No, bar bag and no panniers.

I've had the bike 4 years now and had different tyres on there and i'm now on my second set of wheels and it's still there so it's nothing to do with tyres or wheels.

I've looked at Sheldon Browns advice and he says that it can be down to frame geometry which, based on the other eliminations, sounds about right.

The question is , what to do about it ?

I'm happy with my Sherpa and don't want to change it.

I've thought about a steering stabiliser.

I know these generally are for stopping the wheel turning while parked but I wonder what the forum thought about their use for stopping a light wobble/shimmy with no load ?

I've tried to contact Thorn a few times but they've been busy every time i've called.

Any ideas are welcome ?

thanks !

Bikerwaser



JimK

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Re: Look Mum no hands wobble
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2016, 09:14:38 PM »
Why not just put weight on the front?

I managed to arrange weight on my Nomad once so that it had a shimmy/wobble. I suspect with a given frame geometry there may always be a way to set up weight to get a wobble. So I think the general answer is just to try different ways of mounting and loading bags to avoid the wobble.

I suspect that the usual steering stabilizer will just change the frequency of the wobble, making it faster. But I haven't experimented with one so I cannot be sure. I have seen some reasonable theoretical discussion of where wobble comes from and it pretty much melts my brain!

AndyE

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Re: Look Mum no hands wobble
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2016, 09:42:48 PM »
Hi Bikerwaser, Love my sherpa too. I had a wobble once last year, fully loaded and the turned out to be a loose headset top cap. Quickly sorted with the allen key not had it since. That was with the ST26 forks with low loaders, 36h Andra rims, Schwalbe Marathon Racer HS429 EVO Folding 1.75 inch and bar bag on a straight bar, 2 Panniers with not more than 10 kg total. Can not think on any other occasion I have noticed any wobble or shimmy.

 For the last 11 months I have been commuting on the Sherpa with RAV853VC forks and 32h Grizzlys, Schwalbe City Jet HS257 - Amber Wall - Rigid Road Tyre - 26 x 1.50 Inch , 40-559 , very twitchy at first and it took a while before I had hands off, riding with that setup. Still no shimmy or wobble. I'm sure dan will be along to offer his 10c.

Andy
Doncaster in deepest South of Yorkshire

Danneaux

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Re: Look Mum no hands wobble
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2016, 10:17:10 PM »
Hi Waser (and a wave to AndyE  :) ),

The sources of shimmy are complex indeed and can be very difficult to resolve.

Shimmy can occur at one time or under certain conditions and not at others. The same bike can shimmy uncontrollably under one rider while another rider of nearly identical size and weight cannot provoke it even with effort.

I would suggest you contact Thorn; they really can be enormously helpful in offering suggestions and they want their customers to be happy. Thorn and sister company SJS Cycles are sometimes really busy and they may simply have been swamped the times you called. Keep trying.

I had a problem with shimmy on my own Sherpa that proved intractable to all my efforts, crowdsourcing the problem to the Forum, and even for Thorn. I carefully documented in print and on video the problem, every attempted solution, and results of every failed effort so we both had a record of what had been tried so no steps were missed. Thorn made great efforts to help me and were consistently pleasant to deal with; a special nod here to Thorn's designer Andy Blance, who is a really nice fellow. In the end, the same bike that came to shimmy for me under almost all conditions was wholly stable even under load when ridden by Andy. Nevertheless, they did an exemplary job honoring their warranty and offered a solution that made me happy.

Your shimmy problem differs as mine had no discernible cause while you've identified a clear precipitating cause -- riding with no hands and with a minimal front load. "No hands" generally means sitting with a more upright posture on the bike at those times, unweighting the front wheel and transferring weight rearward. Unfortunately, in my survey of the literature and forums online, this is where shimmy is most apt to manifest and it is most easily damped by weighting the handlebars or by pressing a knee against the top tube.

If you find you really need to ride no-hands, then there are other possibilities to try, ranging from carrying a "dummy load" to weight the front to changing tire pressures or even mixing tire sizes to affect contact patch and effective trail. A more extreme solution might be to fit another Thorn fork with different rake as this can affect trail and stability, but you would want to consult Thorn first to confirm the effect on handling.

An evergreen cause of shimmy can be a worn or pitted headset or one that is merely loose and out of adjustment, so that is always worth checking first. I have fitted headsets with tapered rollerbearings to all my other bikes for greater longevity. These did not shimmy before, but others have reported the greater friction of tapered rollerbearings can damp some cases of shimmy in low-trail randonneur bikes.

I don't think a spring-type stabilizer of the type you are considering will have much effect because the spring acts on such a short moment-arm (bracket) at the fork crown.  I don't think it will do much to resolve shimmy, but it might be worth a try. A true hydraulic or friction damper of the kind used on motorcycles and downhill MTBs would likely be more effective, but the results of the greater damping would be felt across the board, not just when riding no-hands. Having tried one, I found they can make deliberate quick steering inputs too languid in some conditions.

All the best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2016, 11:54:18 PM by Danneaux »

mickeg

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Re: Look Mum no hands wobble
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2016, 11:54:41 PM »
You did not say if it is at all speeds or at a specific speed.  Solutions might be based on the symptoms. If it is at a specific speed, that may be a resonance that others may be able to come up with a solution for.

I never ride with no hands, so I really have no experience with what you are talking about.  If it only occurs when you have no load on the front (panniers, handlebar bag, etc.) then maybe when you sit more upright you are moving the bike center of gravity further back, effectively unloading the front wheel too much?  If so, that is something that likely can't be fixed (if fixed is the correct word here?) without changing a fork or changing weight distribution.

My Surly Long Haul Trucker had such a bad shimmy when loaded with panniers that I eventually got rid of the frame.  It would happen at different speeds (17 mph to 23 mph) depending on how I loaded the bike, but I could never get rid of it.

My Nomad Mk II (size 590M) had a very slight shimmy at a higher speed on my recent tour, but when I loosened my grip on the handlebars it got much weaker.   I do not remember the speed when it came on but it was faster than i would typically ride on teh flat and level, but it clearly was a resonance at a specific speed.  It was so minor that I am not concerned.  It never has any shimmy when unladen.

My Sherpa, rock solid with or without panniers.  Size 610S.  If I had any shimmy on it, I do not remember, I have not ridden that bike much in the past three years since I got my Nomad.

I think when it comes to frame geometry theory, a higher trail fork (less rake or less offset) might be less likely to do what you are experiencing.  If so and if you are willing to pay for a new fork, that is one option if such a fork is available.  Then go back to your old fork when touring with a load on it.  But do not go out and buy a fork based on my comments, this is something you would want to discuss with people more knowledgeable than me.

bikerwaser

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Re: Look Mum no hands wobble
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2016, 08:28:35 AM »
Thanks everyone so far for your ideas.

To be more specific.

My Sherpa is best when it's loaded up. Can't fault it. But I use my bike for everything and so when i'm not touring it's my general commuter bike and this is when I don't have weight on the front.

It happens at all speeds ( although I wouldn't be going top speed without my hands on the bars ). I only do it now and again when I need a rest or just change of position.

I've thought about the headset preload which I may give a try. the steering is so light and smooth which probably is why it so easily is effected.

I'll keep trying the Thorn team and also think about the ideas here.

Thanks again !

Bikerwaser

leftpoole

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Re: Look Mum no hands wobble
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2016, 09:57:27 AM »
bikerwaser
Its sand in the tread (bikerwaser will understand)
By the way I have moved to Gloucestershire.
John

bikerwaser

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Re: Look Mum no hands wobble
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2016, 09:12:19 PM »
First of all thanks the everyone, to Andy E and especially Danneaux.

I've seen your vid Dan and the story behind it.

You're spot on Dan with what you say ( as always ).

I've spoken to Andy Blance and he was really good to chat to. He asked me a few questions and we talked about how to rectify it.

It would seem that it only happens when I have nothing up front but a fair bit at the back.

It's not problem while i'm touring as I have a handlebar bag and front panniers etc. the bike is a dream in this instance but my Sherpa is my "everything bike" and when I'm not touring I don't use front panniers of handlebar bag so I tend to have a fair bit of weight at the back and nothing at the front.
Anyway, I've tried tightening up the preload on the headset and this has helped but I'm not getting the smooth steering as before so I feel I may have it a little too tight. I've now loosened the preload off and the shimmy is back.

Andy Blance has been great in trying to find out the cause and it's still going on.

I'm very impressed by the after sales care after 4 years of buying the bike.

I have to say that my Sherpa is a wonderful bike and my issue is quite insignificant and that I'm probably being a little bit OCD over it but it's good to get this sort of aftercare .
 

jags

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Re: Look Mum no hands wobble
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2016, 08:17:03 PM »
So did u get the shimmy sorted .
 i had a sherpa fantastic bike never had a problem with it, (had to sell it stone broke) long story.
are you certain it's not caused by headset what about front wheel i know u said  it wasn't the wheels but  a lob of grease on the bearings might  work.
anyway hope u get it sorted  tis a great bike.

jags.

bikerwaser

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Re: Look Mum no hands wobble
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2016, 04:42:45 PM »
Hi Jags.

No I didn't get it sorted.

SJS have been great looking into it for me.
We tried the steering stabiliser. It did sort things out to a degree but made the handling in general horrible. I don't think there's anything they can do.
I've tried everything that has been mentioned here with regard to tyre pressures and headset tension.

If it was when my hands were on the bars I'd have a real issue with it.

As I've said, The bike is faultless at doing what it was designed to do and the more weight it has on it the better it seems.

It would seem I just have to deal with it.

Thanks for all the input everyone !


jags

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Re: Look Mum no hands wobble
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2016, 05:06:42 PM »
that's a pity.
has to be the fork sure what else could it be.
maybe try another for see how u get on.

hope u get it sorted great bike the sherpa.

anto