Metal mudguards

[Andre Jute]

Today I came across these Gilles Berthoud stainless steel mudguards available in various touring radii and widths from 40mm to 60mm. Opinion on the net is divided between those who say they make your bike look like a 1930's motorbike, and are hard to fit, and those who rather like their appearance.

http://www.gillesberthoud.fr/anglais/accessoires/resultat.php


Andre Jute

[Danneaux]

Ah! I was about to forward some information on these from Peter White's site, Andre; I'm glad you started this topic.

At first, I thought they might be just the ticket for covring your Big Apples. Now, after a little research at Peter's site...I'm not so sure.

Here's the relevant link on Peter's site: http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/fenders.asp

Here's what he says about them wrt to measurements and fit...

Berthoud stainless fenders are measured to the outside. The metal is rolled to the inside to eliminate the sharp edge, make the fender stiffer, and increase the life of the fender before it finally cracks and needs to be replaced. This makes the inside width of the fender about 9mm narrower than the stated width. I would want at least 5mm clearance on each side of the fender when the fender wraps down around the sides of the tire. So, with the40mm and 50mm stainless berthoud fenders, you should always use a fender that is a minimum of about 18mm wider than the width of your tire,measured at the outside of the fender, depending on how much vertical clearance you have over the tire in your frame.

If I were setting up a bike with 32mm tires, I'd use the 50mm wide stainless fenders. They are typically about 42mm wide on the inside, giving you about 5mm clearance on each side of a tire measuring 32mm wide.

The 60mm wide fenders have a flatter profile than the 40mm and 50mm do, so they don't have to be so much wider than the tire. 10mm wider is plenty for the 60mm fenders.

Keep in mind that these fenders are not made to extremely tight tolerances. There's always a bit of slop in the dimensions. And they can be bent a bit to fit. Before you start bendoing them, be sure about your final result, because once you start bending them, you will not be able to return them.

I hope this helps, Andre, but I have a feeling it may do the opposite and disqualify their use with your Big Apples.

May I offer a suggestion? It might be more comprehensive to change your topic title to "Metal mudguards", since there are aluminum fenders er, mudguards available in wider widths as well, and it might be nice to include them under the same umbrella.

All the best,

Dan. ('s'tough to get quality mudguards for big ol' tires...)

[Danneaux]

Andre,

Velo-Orange have stainless mudguards as well as alu ones by Honjo.

The V-Os are listed in smooth aluminum for 60mm here ("for tires up to 50mm wide"):
http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/accessories/fenders/vo-60mm-polished-fenders-26.html

The V-Os are also listed in smooth stainless steel for 60mm here ("for tires up to 52mm wide"):
http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/accessories/fenders/vo-fenders-stainless-60mm-26-atb.html

Sadly, both of these appear too narrow for your needs, just as with the Berthouds listed by Peter White.

I believe I recall the Honjos are -- or were, once -- available in 62mm width with a non-rolled edge. I will look and see if they are still listed. I have installed Honjos, and the job is not for the faint of heart. You need a daruma if your bike does not have the equivalent, as Thorns do. You need leather washers, and you need the patience of a lesser saint. These things are essentially kits. I have also had experience with the original French LeFoil mudguards, and I do so love, love, love the "turtleback" finish Honjo has adapted to its present stock. Not as good as the Le Foil originals, but still good. They're nice in natural finish, anodized, or polished and make any bike (Any! I tell you!) look "Class" as jags would put it. "Class", pure and simple. They look so good I shiver when looking at them. I actually feel privileged to have mounted some, despite the effort involved. They come with a language course -- your own, as you reach for words you didn't know you knew -- first while mounting them, then words of a whole different sort when admiring them after. All worth it and then some.

Jan has some Grand Bois and Honjos over at CompassBikes: http://www.compasscycle.com/fenders.html Too narrow for you.

Let me take a look and see if Hiroshi has something over at Jitensha Stidio. Soma may have something too, as I recall. I'll stir up my friend in central China; he mentioned something about a repro in the works there. My friend Miguel may be able to give me a line on something produced in concert with Toei in Japan. Back in a bit; this is fun...

All the best,

Dan. (To the hunt! The hunt is on! Sound the horns! The quarry is in sight!)

[Danneaux]

Bingo!

The little gray cells haven't failed me completely; I found the 62mm Honjos at Rene herse Bicycles (the new one using the name licensed form Rene's family)/Boulder Bikes here:
http://www.renehersebicycles.com/NPP%20Fenders.htm

They take pains to note the 62s do not crown as much as the more narrow versions, and so offer mroe clearance. If you look closely at the photos you'll also see the edges are not rolled, but folded and creased, offering greater clearance. Please note 650B fenders/mudguards can fit 26" tires nicely; in many cases, the outside diameters are identical. These 650B x 62mm mudguards should give a nice fenderline with your Big Apples.

backinnaminnit...

Okay, Hiroshi has some photos showing how the Honjos are made, here:
http://www.jitensha.com/eng/honjofact_e.html

Mounting insurrections (*not* a typo in this case) for the Honjos are here, so you can see the battle you're in for:
http://www.jitensha.com/eng/honjinstl.html
Here, too: http://veloweb.ca/garage/how-to-install-honjo-fenders/

I think we've struck out on the size you need a Jitensha Studio, but here's the link anyway:
http://www.jitensha.com/eng/fndrs_e.html#fender%20prices

Vikram Banerjee ("Vik", late of this Forum) managed to get his 26" Surly Long Haul Trucker to work with mudguards and Big Apples, and they appear to clear and cover the BAs very nicely. See: http://www.thelazyrandonneur.com/

This thread indicates the 60mm Berthouds may well do the job for you after all, Andre:
https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/surlylht/s1IGxH5Mhoc

Finally, SOMA's mudguards appear to top-out at 60mm: http://www.somafab.com/archives/product/eurotrip-fenders-mtb

Dan.

[Andre Jute]

Dan, that's a tremendous amount of knowledge and information on file; as always you've overfilled your quota. But I don't need new mudguards yet, just to heed the warning to look after my P65s because they may not be available in future. (Blue smoke break while I stick pins in a wax model of the SKS marketing director.) You can forget those beautiful Honjos for me; I speak confidently of engineering from years of ad hoc industrial design, but I'm an artist, not a craftsman; I'll never get them on straight, and the guy at the only LBS is a blacksmith, not a fitter, and anyway he's 83.

I think, anyway, that when the P65s go, I might try the Planet Bike Concordia 29er mudguards well before I go to metal mudguards. My bike is not cosseted. I don't think, as some have said, "That's a bike for BMW money — you can't ride it into the rough!" My way of thinking is, "I buy the best, and I expect it to survive my kind of service, whatever I want to do, wherever I want to go." It's one of the wonders of our age that pretty limp plastics are more durable than hefty metal. To make my P65 last longer, I've decided not to mess with them, not to fit longer/heavier/stiffer/dicier mud flaps, but to make the short mudflaps I have now do. Today I deliberately rode through some standing water at speed, and from the water on top of my shoes, I reckon I need only one inch extra on the mud flaps; maddening, but my decision is made. (Pass up more pins, and maybe we should have wax dolls of the entire board of directors of SKS.)

Pity about the Berthoud's being too narrow -- that thread you referred me to is about 26in wheels, and it isn't quite clear that the guy who says they will fit has any experience and isn't just reading off the sales table referenced in the first post of this thread. I've long experience of buying components that Peter White stocks, if not necessarily from him, and have always found him to offer spot-on info, so I think it much more likely that your first assessment was right, that the Berthouds will take only what today we'd consider medium touring tyres, around the 37 to 42mm range. I like the idea of stainless mudguards but I don't have time to fiddle with projects, I want stuff that fits right in at most an hour of work by the ten-thumbed (my 8FUN electric transformation from the eponymous firm in Britain is a brilliant example of a properly developed kit of parts, see http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLING.html ).

Andre Jute

[jags]

Love to go for a coffee with you two guys and just sit there in silence listening to you talk bikes.

how do you manage to gather so much info is beyond me, but i love it.

cheers
jags.

[Danneaux]

...and just sit there in silence listening to you talk bikes.

But jags, if you just sat there in silence, it wouldn't be any fun at all! Always better to have your input!

My way of thinking is, "I buy the best, and I expect it to survive my kind of service, whatever I want to do, wherever I want to go."

<nods> Well said, Andre! I've always been irritated by people (some of them friends) who own Ferraris...and then don't use them as-intended. A couple years ago, I met (nearly collected 'round a blind corner; yikes!) a brand-new, temp-licensed Porsche Turbo (900-series) with AWD. I stopped and asked how he happened to be on that same very rough and remote mountain logging road. "Just out four-wheelin'" was the answer. YES! This man "got it".

All the best,

Dan. (looking forward to that kaffeklatsch...does 10 AM work for you both? I might be a little late...travel-time, y'now...)

[jags]

i would never get a worn in dan 
yip 10 will be fine.

[kwkirby01]

I have Berthoud 650B x 50mm mudguards on my Sherpa; a perfect fit for my Schwalbe Marathon Supreme 42mm and I think they look terrific. I'll post a picture at the weekend. I also have a sheet showing what size mudguard fits what tyre, which is why I ended up with 650B.

They were a bit of a faff to fit, but once on are absolutely solid and offer fantastic coverage. I'd not hesitate to fit them again.

Kevin

[Andre Jute]

I'll get up specially early to make that 10 o'clock meeting!

Kevin, I don't think there is a problem with 26in tyres. There's still a choice to cover 60mm tyres, including the SKS P65 for 26in tyres, the Planet Bike Concordia, possibly some of the metal mudguards too. The problem is for 28in tyres and 60mm Big Apples, for which the P65 are no longer listed by SKS.

Andre Jute

[kwkirby01]

Sorry, hadn't realised you were using 28" tyres...

[Danneaux]

Sorry, hadn't realised you were using 28" tyres...

Me, neither!

All the best,

Dan. (I can do "short" posts!)

[gma]

I just wanted to chip in with my experience of the Berthoud 40mm stainless mudguards.

I fitted them to a 1970s Dawes Galaxy (and they about as large a guard as will comfortably fit the frame) along with some 28mm white Panaracer Paselas. There was a perfect amount of clearance. While I have huge respect for Peter White (the man is a font of knowledge) I'm not convinced by his suggestion that you need more than 6mm clearance either side.

The rule of thumb that I operated on when I bought them was you need "tyre width + 12mm" when choosing a mudguard, in order to ensure that they can keep the water off you. There was plenty of clearance with the white Paselas.

Take note, however, that white Paselas were significantly wider than black Paselas on my rim. I was running a fairly narrow rim, and black Paselas measured just a shade over 25mm. White Paselas (which looked to be perfectly sized for the 40mm guards) measured a shade over 28mm.

I've now put my black Paselas on a wider rim, and they measure a fraction under 28mm, but this is a whole other conversation!

The trick with the Berthouds, I suspect, is to make sure that you've got the right kind of gap between the tyre and the mudguard. Width isn't the only factor to consider if you're worried about the edge of the guard fouling the tyre. On your average Thorn bike, you've got a lot of room to play around with this (i.e. very long stays and huge fork clearance), so I'd recommend you go ahead and buy a pair if they're "tyre width + 12mm".

I used them on my commuter day in day out for about three years. Still going strong. As for them being a pain to fit – are you equipped to drill an accurate hole in a stainless steel sheet? It's difficult to hold them steady without a vice, but I managed it. It took an hour or so for me to be confident I was going to drill it in the right place, but that was the only hard part. That's for the rear; the front was a piece of cake (I used the Daruma bolt).

[Andre Jute]

Take note, however, that white Paselas were significantly wider than black Paselas on my rim. I was running a fairly narrow rim, and black Paselas measured just a shade over 25mm. White Paselas (which looked to be perfectly sized for the 40mm guards) measured a shade over 28mm.

That's a significant difference and another warning not to cut your tolerances too fine! Thanks for your experience.