Drops, tyres and back pain

[Andre Jute]

Andre,
maybe it contributes towards a bad back?
Julian.

The "it" Julian refers to is the road bike with drop bars and narrow, high pressure tyres.

The cause of back pain for cyclists is abused muscles and nerves in the small of the back. It isn't immediately obvious but everything that a cyclist does ends up there. Microvibrations in his hands? Sure, the arm muscles hang at the shoulder on muscles down the back which end up at the trouble spot. We talk about tingling hands but part of the effect is eventually noticed in the small of the back, even if just by constantly tensing arm muscles that otherwise might be relaxed.

Bicycling tradition is responsible for so much back pain, through "efficient" postures. "Efficient" for what? Why, cycling quickly, of course, and the hell with the back pain it causes. The excuse given for drop  bars by people who don't race and therefore don't need the aerodynamic edge of a flat back is that "there are so many possible handholds on drops". But changing handholds is a bodge for sitting wrong on the bike and choosing drops in the first instance, because the drops themselves are such an anti-ergonomic.

As for narrow, hard tyres, there's no scientific, ergonomic or efficiency justification for them outside racing. The fact is that fat, low pressure, slick balloons have less rolling resistance than high pressure narrow tyres.

I also think that there are more overly stiff bikes with wrongly proportioned tubes than there are noodle-bikes that are not stiff enough, even without leaving steel bikes behind. I had such an overly stiff bike for twelve years, a beautifully brazed but harsh-riding Peugeot which by itself bought a new BMW every year for my physio. Since some measurably very stiff bikes ride very well (my Kranich is actually stiffer than that Peugeot), I suspect it has to do with the distribution of tube diameters and thicknesses, in short with design experience rather than objectively definable technical guidelines.

So there's good bicycle tradition as well as bad. The problem is knowng which is which.

[jags]

Andre  I'd say theres a lot of truth in what you say.using drops you are most definitely  bent over for most if not all of the ride which i suppose cant be good for the back.
i admit i ride slicks all the time with 90 to 100 psi, most of the time I'm on the hoods or tops but never on the drops my belly stops me from that trick

i rode my friends new mountain bike few weeks ago and although it wasn't a flying machine it wasn't slow either. but getting used to straight bars after 40 years of riding drops  .
my nephew has a full carbon mountain bike straight bars wide tyres  but way to big for me might be a plan in the future who knows expensive though.

when i was out yesterday for a 20 miler i wasn't in any kind of stress on the bike but it was a flat route hills might be a different story.
anyway i have 700 x28 on at the moment and 70 psi there rated at 80psi , any lower could cause pinch flats. my type of cycling calls for a responsive bike 30 to 70 mile spin at 15mph average with a group of course not solo .
another big thing is bike fit ,I'm old school if it near enough fits it will do me spanner in arse pocket adjust things as they need adjusting so far so good.
my audax is 52cm, when i went with my buddy to get info on a custom made frame, the expert bike builder reckoned just by looking at me i needed a 48cm  frame,he then gave me a go on a custom lady racing bike it fitted me like a glove i could not believe it. point I'm trying to make proper size frame can make a hell of a difference to aches and pains.

[Bill C]

The excuse given for drop  bars by people who don't race and therefore don't need the aerodynamic edge of a fat back is that "there are so many possible handholds on drops". But changing handholds is a bodge for sitting wrong on the bike and choosing drops in the first instance, because the drops themselves are such an anti-ergonomic.


utter tosh, so all drop bar tourers/bikes are a bodge  and anyone that owns one chose the wrong bike ?

[Danneaux]

Hi All!

To add a data point and a pleasantly contrarian opinion at the opposite end of the scale...

Speaking for myself, I can't get along ergonomically with *other* than drop handlebars, where my hands face each other. Other sorts of bars cause me wrist, elbow, and shoulder pain that goes away when I return to drops. I can get away with other kinds in the short term, but not on the long rides and days in the saddle...day after day.

That said, I've always sized them appropriately for width, preferred a more shallow drop/compact reach drop bar,  and have always set them up either level with the saddle-top or no more than 50mm/2in below and with a stem and top tube that allow a 45° back angle while riding the brake hoods.

For me, the variety of hand holds isn't a bodge, but most welcome when riding 17-hour days in the saddle and 300-400km/day. "More efficient" when I can reduce my frontal area by using the drops riding into stiff headwinds. Just a different use of the bike, with different goals and purpose. One I like that suits me and makes me happiest. I don't race; I tour.

Whenever I've incurred back pain -- say, from an off-bike lifting injury or torn/strained muscles or a pinched nerve -- the treatment that suited me best was a good ride on my drop-'bar bikes. This has held true through decades of riding as much as 19,000km/year on rough-paved roads, "gravel grinders", and logging roads as well as velvety tarmac. Most of those in the past were on tires 28mm wide. I came to prefer wider tires and lower pressures when technology improved to give good tires with supple sidewalls in 32mm widths and rims universally developed hooked beads ("crochets") to securely retain them.

*For me* The bent-forward positioning seems to "open up" my back and I handle bumps and irregularities better than in an upright position, particularly if I employ my slightly bent elbows as a partial suspension and post (stand) over the bigger bumps. Only when riding the unladen Nomad on logging roads have I felt the need for a suspension seatpost,  which completely addressed all neck-related shock problems. I had no need for one riding AndyBG's lighter-duty RavenTour on extremely rough roads during my just concluded Double-plus Trans-European crossings. Same for my randonneur bike with standard tubing diameters and 700Cx32C tires run at 80-85psi.

At the same time, my older motorcycling buddies who rode hardtail Harley choppers with high handlebars from the late 1960s through the late 1970s are nearly all crippled to some degree by osteoarthritis and degenerative bone disease and disc issues in their backs. To a man, they were all told by their doctors the condition resulted from the upright positioning and lack of rear suspension ("hard-tail" means the only rear suspension is the tire itself) causing road shocks to be transmitted directly through an upright spine.

Just another instance where there seems to be no universal panacea when it comes to positioning to avoid back pain. Pain is an indicator of something wrong. If you're comfortable,  chances are good you'll avoid injury in the long term.

I'm in hearty agreement about there being good and bad bike tradition. The trick is finding which of the available lot works for you. Beyond common sense, the only way I know to reliably tell the difference is through experience -- try, discarding the bad stuff and sticking with what feels best.

All the best,

Dan.  (...who finds drop handlebars to be the more comfortable and injury-free solution for his neck and back. Hands...well, that's another matter and better addressed by past glove designs)

[Andre Jute]

... so all drop bar tourers/bikes are a bodge  and anyone that owns one chose the wrong bike ?

I wouldn't put it quite that bluntly, for fear of boggling the horses. See, you're on the Thorn forum, where people choose their handlebar first, and then the frame "length" according to the handlebar (read Andy Blance on why this is the correct order of events on your bicycle decision tree), so if they want to change handlebars they also have to change frames. Quite a few are genuinely attached to their drop bars, see for instance Anto and Dan's replies in this thread.

I was just fortunate to come into cycling late, so that I didn't bring a whole lot of roadie baggage with me to tourers when I discovered their joys.

[Relayer]

The excuse given for drop  bars by people who don't race and therefore don't need the aerodynamic edge of a fat back is that "there are so many possible handholds on drops". But changing handholds is a bodge for sitting wrong on the bike and choosing drops in the first instance, because the drops themselves are such an anti-ergonomic.


utter tosh, so all drop bar tourers/bikes are a bodge   and anyone that owns one chose the wrong bike ?

I live in Edinburgh which is also known as the windy city.  I maybe don't need the aerodynamic edge to race, but sometimes I do need it to get over 7mph into a block headwind!

How can I have chosen the wrong bike when I have NEVER had any kind of problem with my back?!?!?  (Touching wood here.) There are many causes of back pain outside of cycling.

I agree 100% with Dan in that the main advantage in terms of comfort with drop bars is positioning my hands "facing each other", flat/straight bars are at a far less than ideal angle, and "comfort bars" are a bridge too far in terms of function over form for me.

As for tyres, I find 700 x 25 tyres inflated to 100 psi perfectly comfortable, and they run quite sweetly over rough roads with a carbon fork. The most uncomfortable setup I have come across is 26 x 1.6" Supremes on my RST which transmit a lot of vibration to my wrists especially when riding at 20mph or more - and unbearably so with the dynamo lighting switched on with those tyres.

I appreciate the goodwill with which people post their 'advice' on these boards, and maybe I am reacting more strongly than I should, but this horse has been well and truly boggled over recent weeks with ridiculous arguments in a passionately and fiercely fought referendum here.

Jim

[Donerol]

When I was young I always used straight bars, until we moved near Edinburgh and I had a 12-mile commute into a strong headwind nearly ever day.  With some nervousness I changed the bike to drops, and instantly felt more comfortable on them for all riding, not just into the wind.  I have always had them level with the saddle so not an extreme position.

Now that I am older I need, like Dan,  to have my hands facing each other. Recently I bought a s/h Raven Tour which in principle I love, but need to do something about the bars. It came with comfort bars - the most uncomfortable I have ever tried! At the moment I have the Thorn straight bar, with bar ends, which are better, but I find that braking sets up all sorts of pains in my wrists and thumb joints after a short while. So my next plan is to fit Origin-8 bar ends with drop bar levers to get closer to my preferred position. The RT frame is a 'short' one and at the moment I feel rather cramped on it, so drop bars will give me more room as well as a parallel hand position. It won't look very elegant but the RT is a bit...industrial, anyway. It's a great ride, though, and once I get the bars sorted out I'll be over the hills and far away!

ETA I'm fortunate enough to never have suffered back problems. My husband does occasionally, a congenital condition, but a ride on his drop-bar touring bike always sorts it out.

[julk]

Guys,
Wow, my short reply to jags seems to have stirred things up a bit.

My comment was made in reply to experiencing serious lower back pain.
If you have lower spine disc injury, I have, then bending forward without pivoting at the hips can cause the damaged discs to bulge and press on some spinal nerves - this will probably also result in lower back muscle pain/spasm/tightening.
This muscle response seems to be a 'protective reflex’ to encourage a straighter back in the damaged area.
I know this is how my back works now.

Whatever handlebar/bike setup works for you is the best.
For me now it is comfort handlebars, ergon grips (no need to change hand position), relaxed riding position, rear sprung saddle, low pressure 2” wide tyres.

When young and with an undamaged back, I used to ride drop handlebars, racing position, hard narrow tyres all with no problems.
Isn’t growing old wonderful.
Julian.

[Bill C]

hi Andre
never read andy's advice on buying the correct frame size as i already knew what i wanted
i bought a 585 sherpa it is between sizes so a longer stem ie 110/120 and it can use straight bars 90mm and i am more than happy with drops (but can swap bars later if need be)
I bought a  XTC 590 classic frameset from the bare metal workshop sale that is a few mil longer than the sherpa again i use it with drops

i have two completly trashed disk's that the surgeons won't touch and also mild (so far) cauda equina stenosis ,
99% of the time using drops alleviate the worst of my symptoms, and i can ride pretty much most of the time
however when my back is really bad and i cannot walk due to back pain and sciatica, i use a different bike
i built up an old Marin with a Brooks flyer, schwalbe big apples and nitto albatross bars with this build i can still ride into town and back to get shopping, though i have to use a lidl trolley as a zimmer frame to get around the shop
the Marin worked out so well when i'm really bad that a month after buying the XTC classic i also bought the last of the later model bare metal XTC's, i intend building this pretty much the same as the Marin

as far as i see it there are no absolutes, each person needs to find the correct fitting frame for them and then they need to equip that frame to make it into most suitable bike for themself.
if you have illness or disabilities then you may well end up with several different bike/set ups to suit your present health conditions

NO EXCUSES LOOK AFTER YOUR BACK AND YOUR HEALTH EVERYONE

atb Bill

[Slammin Sammy]

Hi guys,

My two cents:

Back injury and deterioration can have multiple sources, and it's very true that other, non-cycling activities can aggravate the condition. My personal bugbear is jarring from too vertical a riding position, as Dan and others have described. However, I have also experienced pain (not injury, touch wood-grain screen on my iPad) from riding the drops on my Trek 520 that are now too low for me.

We humans beat the crap out of ourselves almost from the moment we can crawl. I spent yesterday playing with my beautiful and extremely energetic 18-month old granddaughter, and I marveled at the contortions, spills and bumps that little people can take. As we get older, we get shopworn and degraded. I've ridden (and fallen off) motorcycles for many years, broke my back in a car rollover, and have jammed my neck numerous times at work in mines. It's a wonder I can walk, let alone ride, but luckily, I feel pretty good for 62, all things considered.

Some of us gents also develop overhangs (guts) that no amount of riding seems able to shift, and the extra stress from having a boom bigger than your counterweight ( ) doesn't do your back any good at all.

So, my advice:

1) Get your hand grip comfortable, no matter which angle is preferred. Do not use a death grip!
2) Adjust your bar reach and height so that you're generally sharing the load ( your weight) between your arms (slightly bent) and your bum. Your arms are by far your best shock absorbers, and more injuries happen from shock through the saddle than through your arms, as long as you keep them bent.
3) Try to prevent saddle jarring by posting, and by using a suspension, saddle and/or wide cushiony tyres.
4) Change positions from time to time, and take breaks at least every couple of hours.
5) Listen to your body. Pain is the way it tells you that damage is being done. Powering through back pain is not brave, it is foolhardy, as your back stops growing in your early 20s, and will not heal itself after that. That's why I don't trust pain and cortisone injections - they mask symptoms.

As has been pointed out, the good thing is that cycling can often relieve back pain, just as it can aggravate it. The main thing is to be aware of what you're feeling and what's causing it, and get good medical advice if you're not sure.

Thanks

[jags]

seriously dont think the bike is the cause of my back pain .as i said when i out i feel fine no problems at all until i get off it hard to straighten up 
i reckon no matter what bars or tyres your using if the bike fits and your super comfortable on it then look at elsewhere for the cause of the problem sounds obvious  ..


sam i hang around with a guy you would get on with, the guy has has more accidents than a small hospital but still going strong.

anto