Author Topic: bicycle stand on a club tour?  (Read 7468 times)

phopwood

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Re: bicycle stand on a club tour?
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2014, 06:02:54 PM »
This may work if you have a rack and it would not invalidate the warranty.  I have no experience of these just remember seeing an advert for them.

http://www.hebie.de/rear-stand-662.hebie6620.0.html?&L=1

All the best.

Peter.

Danneaux

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Re: bicycle stand on a club tour?
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2014, 06:46:12 PM »
Real good suggestion, Peter, but those little rack-mounted kickstands are intended for mounting on front racks, to keep the front wheel from swinging 'round while the bike is parked on another (usually rear stay-mounted) kickstand, which supports the actual weight of the bicycle.

Attached is a photo of one mounted in place on a Tubus Tara, courtesy of my Dutch touring partner.

Sadly, the front one just won't support the bike's entire weight on its own.

I've sometimes wished for something like this at the rear, but realize it would take a pretty massive rack for it to work...perhaps something like the 16mm OD tubing used on the Tout Terrain Silk Road, and that in turn is brazed-on and so becomes a part of the frame (both good and bad; very difficult if the rack becomes damaged and needs replacement).

Hebie do make a model (designed for rear-sus MTBs) that mounts to the rear-axle q/r. but there is a 15kg weight limit: http://www.hebie.de/rear-stand-680.hebie680.0.html?&L=1 A 25kg-capable variant is here: http://www.hebie.de/rear-stand-616.hebie616.0.html?&L=1 Comes with cautions to check the rear axle nut or q/r regularly for tightness.

Best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 06:53:46 PM by Danneaux »

phopwood

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Re: bicycle stand on a club tour?
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2014, 08:06:29 PM »
Dan,

You have a very good point and I must remember to read the web page in more detail  :).

I do like the look of the rear Q/R mounted kick stand, but again can cause warranty issues.

On the warranty front the words are clear, Thorn do not cover any claim made relating to the damage caused by the fitting of any kick stand.  So it does not invalidate your total warranty but any damage caused by any attached kick stand is not covered.

"If you insist that we fit a kick stand for you, or if you choose to fit one to your bike post build, we will not entertain any claims for damage arising from the use of or fitment of a prop/kickstand." 

All the best.

Peter

cycling4chapatis

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Re: bicycle stand on a club tour?
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2014, 09:16:18 PM »
After the first couple of months touring I got my partner a click stand for her bike. Very small, well made, quickly delivered, never used. Carried it 5000km through Africa and somehow NEVER came past a spot where we couldn't lean bikes against something. And admittedly handy trick is using the little rubber rings (like hair ties) to hold brakes when using the click stand. With a bit of skill you can lean two bikes against each other and stop them from falling over (with the brakes secured)!

Click-stand: definitely great, but of little use to us. Bit like like the hordes (including us!) carting expensive water filters around and never using them...

Danneaux

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Re: bicycle stand on a club tour?
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2014, 09:32:20 PM »
No worries, Peter. A good suggestion all the same.  :)
Quote
On the warranty front the words are clear, Thorn do not cover any claim made relating to the damage caused by the fitting of any kick stand.  So it does not invalidate your total warranty but any damage caused by any attached kick stand is not covered.
Tubus has a similar outlook, though not necessarily kickstand-related. Their warranty covers failures of the rack in-use for its intended purpose, but they don't cover damage caused by fall-overs and blow-overs, which seems reasonable. Those subject the racks to forces beyond what could be normally foreseen by their designers.

Some general thoughts, springing on from those earlier thread links above...

As for kickstands on bikes, in my opinion the concept is terrific and very convenient, but the execution leaves open the possibility for frame damage, so over the entire population of bikes it really is a gamble that depends on many factors -- the individual bike and tubing diameter and wall thickness, the load carried at the time, the competency and care of the fitter, any number of things. I fit one to the rear stays of my father's lighter-weight touring bike with no apparent damage resulting, but he was also careful to use it only with the bike unladen. There's no denying they work fine for some people, but it's one of those things where damage may not be apparent till After on some bikes/fitments and then you can't turn the clock back. For warranty purposes, this is a critical factor.

Years ago, I had terrible luck myself with a kickstand mounted to the chainstays just behind the BB. I took great care in the mounting and use and all seemed well until I parked in a crowded rack at uni. I had ridden up the hill, so left the bike in low gear. When I returned from class, I found someone had wheeled he bike back to the limit of its cable to make room for theirs to squeeze in. Pulling my bike back caused the left crank (in low gear, remember, so high torque) to rotate rearward enough to foul the kickstand. As a result, the clamp made some huge crushing dents in both chainstays, top and bottom just rearward of the BB lugs. It still makes me sick to look at it, but by some miracle the frame has continued to ride well for another 56,000km with no tube failure, but still....Man!

Kickstand damage like this can happen if one has a heavy touring load and wheels the bike backwards vigorously to turn around while forgetting to fold a BB-mounted stand (I've seen it happen). Bolting the kickstand to a chainstay-brazed bracket doesn't always help, as the torque can be sufficient to tear the bracket off the stays (I rebrazed one successfully for a friend, had to pass on another as it had cracked the stay when it tore).

For designers and manufacturers, it is hard to predict how a product will be used in the field. One rider's JRA failure ("Just Riding Around") may actually be due to routinely performing jumps off loading docks. A distressing number of people (none Thorn Forum members or owners, I'm sure) seem to derive great joy in balancing on a kickstand-supported bicycle. It seems to be a popular activity among the local uni crowd while texting on their cellphones. This puts a great deal of unforeseen stress on a product really designed to support only the bike or a bike and touring load -- and stresses the frame unduly as well.

My friend with the fore-and-aft kickstands had a distressing number of fallovers while we toured due to parking on soft ground and high winds. This was "user error", aggravated by a low bracing angle that was not sufficient to support a heavy touring load from below in those conditions and a wall-lean or layover would have been a better, damage-avoiding choice in those circumstances.

Click-Stands can also allow the bike to fall over if the ground is soft or if one forgets to lock the brakes, but there is at least no clamping to the frame's tubes. I've had great luck substituting these http://www.bikebrake.com/ for the bungees supplied with the Click-Stand, and they even help if one is simply leaning a bike against a wall, as I sometimes prefer to do.

In the end, one chooses the solution with greatest appeal for oneself, but the warranty restraints are clear.

Best,

Dan.

il padrone

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Re: bicycle stand on a club tour?
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2014, 09:58:53 PM »
The rear-stay (or centre-stand) effectiveness all depends on the width of the stance of the stand. Those Hebie stay-mount stands pictured are much less effective because they do not swing out far enough. I would never consider using them on my touring bike. Have a look at the picture I posted above of my bike with the Pletscher Multi-zoom.  When in use it swings out as wide as the loaded panniers. A narrower stance would leave the bike at risk of toppling as the panniers hang outside the stand.

My son and I, with our bikes



I do NOT like centre-stands, but a friend has a dutch bike with a centre-mount single-leg stand that swings out very wide and provides his bike with a stable mount, even with panniers.

Something like this one I believe:


As for Thorns carry-on about the warranty - I've simply decided that I am prepared to wear that. The frame is great and strong, the stand is similar. Thorn carry on about a few things that are accepted practice elsewhere in the bicycle industry eg. disc brakes on touring bikes with rigid forks. Sometimes they are standing in front of the wave.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 11:37:00 PM by il padrone »

il padrone

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Re: bicycle stand on a club tour?
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2014, 04:52:57 AM »
Tubus has a similar outlook, though not necessarily kickstand-related. Their warranty covers failures of the rack in-use for its intended purpose, but they don't cover damage caused by fall-overs and blow-overs, which seems reasonable. Those subject the racks to forces beyond what could be normally foreseen by their designers.

I have seen loaded bikes fall over often enough to know that when they do, it is highly unlikely that anything will get damaged - most of the weight is in the panniers and they hit the ground first, cushioning bike and racks.



Kickstand damage like this can happen if one has a heavy touring load and wheels the bike backwards vigorously to turn around while forgetting to fold a BB-mounted stand (I've seen it happen). Bolting the kickstand to a chainstay-brazed bracket doesn't always help, as the torque can be sufficient to tear the bracket off the stays (I rebrazed one successfully for a friend, had to pass on another as it had cracked the stay when it tore).

I would only ever truly recommend a stay-mounted stand, and then one that has a wide stance and secure mount. Of course, don't over-torque it like Superman.....  but also make sure it is tight enough. Because of Thorn's warnings on stands I was overly cautious when first mounting the Pletscher - leading to a problem and minor paint damage.  Would not have happened if I had tightened it a bit more.



For designers and manufacturers, it is hard to predict how a product will be used in the field. One rider's JRA failure ("Just Riding Around") may actually be due to routinely performing jumps off loading docks. A distressing number of people (none Thorn Forum members or owners, I'm sure) seem to derive great joy in balancing on a kickstand-supported bicycle. It seems to be a popular activity among the local uni crowd while texting on their cellphones. This puts a great deal of unforeseen stress on a product really designed to support only the bike or a bike and touring load -- and stresses the frame unduly as well.

There's no stopping duffusses  ::) but surely any sensible manufacturer or retailer applies the Darwin clause to exclude them from claims  ??? Why can't Thorn??
« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 04:57:17 AM by il padrone »