Author Topic: Further pedelec discussion  (Read 6929 times)

sd

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Further pedelec discussion
« on: May 24, 2014, 07:41:01 PM »
Hi All!

This topic is a catch-all for posts to another board that went badly off-topic. I've transferred them here and edited them for coherence and to maintain community spirit while maintaining as much unaltered content as possible, as much of the discussion would prove helpful to those considering pedelec/electric conversions of their own bicycles. For those interested in further discussion on the topic,  it may be readily found through the Forum's search function.

Best,

Danneaux
Thorn Cycling Forum administrator

Is it cheating to use an electrically assisted motor on a bicycle? Do you need the motor? Will it make it harder not easier? If you are cycling 60 miles a day and the battery runs out after 10 it ain't going to help. Add on motors are notoriously inefficient. If you are going to use a motor then the bike should be built with it.
   I want one of those Kalkhoffs but cannot bring myself to bid on one. Cycling up a hill pulling a trailer of wood or apples is not practical if the hill is to steep and not efficient time wise. Did 6 12 mile round trips pulling a trailer full of firewood. Looked at what I had and thought time to share with someone who has a car. A decent electric bike with 2 batteries would sort that out. But I just can't bring myself to bid or I bid silly low prices. I have septic arthritis now which makes it to painful to cycle stood up but still cannot bid a decent price. I am right tosser on this as I have now spent £2500 on 2 second hand Rohloff equipped bikes.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 04:47:45 PM by Danneaux »

Andre Jute

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Re: Further pedelec discussion
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2014, 10:51:20 PM »
Andre noticed member IanS is considering adding a bottom bracket mounted assist motor to his new black Sherpa and member Bikerta/Jackie expressed interest in the topic as well.Which central motor are you thining of, Ian? I looked into the Bafang one, which appears to be the best value for money and also because I currently have a Bafang front motor which is a pleasing high torque item, yet still economical on the battery. I didn't buy it yet because my current motor and battery are going so well, with years of use still left.

Jackie, an excellent motor kit is sold by 8-FUN on British Ebay; this kit, or proprietary variations on it which some members had local suppliers fit, has probably the strongest street-legal motor, perfectly good controls, and can be ordered with a bottle battery to fit in the centre of the bike, which helps with balance, especially on tour with luggage and camping gear. The only cheap thing about is is some of the car-type bullet connectors, which you can easily replace. The motor is the Bafang QSWXK, which is a special model for finciky Europeans. My build experience, at a time when I was headed for heart surgery and my energy ran out alarmingly fast, is described at http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLING.html

Jackie: Depending on how you use the motor, I think the battery may do for a 60km day. My longest regular round trip ride is around 21km and even with heavy use that has never depleted the battery fully, even when I used it heavily. When used relatively lightly, and with attention to the instantaneous current load idiot lights on on the handlebar control in conjunciton with the thum throttle position, the same 20km ride could be taken a couple of times or three, though I recharge the battery after every use, even if only a couple of clicks.

SD: Though I advise the casual cyclists locally who ask me to sell or build them a bike like mine (whose faces are a study when they hear what it will cost) to buy a Kalkhoff instead for somewhere between two and three thousand, for a serious cyclist of the type who frequent this forum they're entirely a no-no. At best they might do for the high-mileage commuters. But for tourers? No! There are just too many proprietary and very special parts, starting with a frame contorted to fit the motor, and only that motor, and no other common or garden transmission parts from the local bike shop. If something breaks or wears out on those Kalkhoff bikes, in a few years you will be out on a limb. I have experience of this with Shimano full-service DI2 (the full auto luxury model with electronically controlled adaptive suspension as sell, not the silly cut-down version sold on road bikes) with my Trek Smover (line above), a system also enthusiastically adopted by Gazelle and Kalkhoff -- but ask them for parts now, only a handful of years later! Those Kalkhoff and other bikes that use the Bosch midmotor missed the point of an expensive quality bike entirely: it is not a consumable item, but a piece of near-permanent capital investment.

Still speaking to SD: I think you'll do better with the common Bafang central motor, which is available in several ratings, thought note that every time you up the power of the motor, the price of teh complete installation is probably squared because batteries are so expensive.

One final point about motor power: Most of us here added motors to existing, generally Rohloff-equipped bikes because of geographic (hills!) or health reasons or both. But a Rohloff is gross overkill once you have an electric motor, because, if you intend to remain a cylist rather than becoming an electrified motorbiker, you will come to use the motor just to fill in the holes in leg and lung power. A Shimano 7- or 8-speed Nexus box will do just fine; it is all you need; the only remaining consideration is that a mid motor with crude control algorithms will possibly (nobody knows) wreck the Shimano Nexus box eventually, possibly even a Rohloff box as a remote eventuality. Still, the front motor popular here (8FUN QSWXK with bottle battery in its most economical generally available kit) is a very desirable alternative that doesn't interfere with a hub gearbox of any description, and for those who want even more torque, above the already torquey SWXK there is the famous Bafang BPM front motor (commonly called "the hill climber" though a speed version is also available by fitting small wheel gearing to larger wheels), though those start at 350W, above street legality, off road only. For the heaviest trailer pullers, there is also a BPM rear motor which works with derailleur setups.

Andre Jute
« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 04:52:58 PM by Danneaux »

leftpoole

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Re: Further pedelec discussion
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2014, 11:20:16 AM »
My eventual plan is to fit a crank-drive electric motor (health reasons).

Hello,
Firstly, nice looking bike.
Secondly commiserations regarding health issues.
However I have very serious heart and other health issues. I would not be seen dead on any electric assisted bike. It is not a bicycle it is a MOPED!
Enjoy but remember cycling is in my opinion cycling with human power not electric power.
Buy a scooter or small motor cycle and be out and proud! If that's your bag?
John

jags

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Re: Further pedelec discussion
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2014, 01:28:49 PM »
emm have to disagree with you on that John,
there was many a time i pushed a fella in trouble and many a time i was glad to get a push,the motor on the bike i reckon will be a life saver when the going gets tough.

i see where your coming from but if a fella is in bad health whats the harm in it .still going to be cycling most of the time.i reckon these motors will be fitted as standard in a few years when they figure out how to make them smaller and more efficient.

anto.

sd

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Re: Further pedelec discussion
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2014, 07:11:51 AM »
Pulling 90kg up a steep hill can be near impossible without the aid of some power assist.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 04:55:44 PM by Danneaux »

sd

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Re: Further pedelec discussion
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2014, 07:27:50 AM »
You might be missing my point. I have 2 Rohloff equipped bikes. I have no intention of using the Kalkhoff for touring. I don't drive and it is to time consuming (and to hard) to pull heavy trailers on 10 mile+ round trips, with or without hills. I also don't like to depend on others....ignoring having to share!
   Nor do I intend on paying anymore than £700 at the very very most for a Kalkhoff bike and maybe £200 for a new spare battery. All easily achievable on eBay.... If only I could bid more than £7.50!!
   I will look at the motors you suggest though. Always worth checking. I am not prepared to put them on just for a particular job they have to be on permanently. I definitely agree about the gears needed 8 preferably hub maximum.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 04:58:16 PM by Danneaux »

ians

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Re: Further pedelec discussion
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2014, 09:16:49 AM »
Which central motor are you thining of, Ian?
Andre Jute

Andre - always good to hear your thoughts on this subject.  I'm looking at the Sunstar iBike S03 kit.  Doesn't seem to difficult to fit myself.

ian

sd

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Re: Further pedelec discussion
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2014, 09:38:52 AM »
The Sunstar iBike S03 looks interesting as it is the most efficient place to have a motor. Front wheel is least efficient  specially if you have front suspension. Will consider Sunstar iBike S03 as I have spare bike but my heart is set on a Kalkhoff although my mind/pocket isn't.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 04:59:41 PM by Danneaux »

Andre Jute

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Re: Further pedelec discussion
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2014, 05:19:02 PM »
Andre - always good to hear your thoughts on this subject.  I'm looking at the Sunstar iBike S03 kit.  Doesn't seem to difficult to fit myself.

Thanks for that, Ian. I took a look. Interesting about the torque sensing of the Japanese Sunstar. The best the Chinese offer is "torque simulation", which to me sounds like the computer's best guess of the lowest common denominator circumstances of a cyclist somewhere else, bever where you live.

That Sunstar is a rather pricey kit, though, and the battery is on top of that.

***

I was looking at the much more commonplace, cruder, Bafang BBS01 kit at BMS Battery http://www.bmsbattery.com/89-central-motor but a few considerations stopped me ordering it either from them or from a British dealer http://www.wooshbikes.co.uk/?cdkit offering a reasonable price on the same kit :
1. My current setup serves faithful and unobtrusively and has only about 3000km of wear on it; years of service left in it. So replacing it merely for technical interest would be an expensive luxury.
2. There have been reports of central motors not playing nice with rear wheel gearing, especially on tarmac (as opposed to off road) bikes. I can quite believe this. I've gone to enormous trouble and expense to build an extremely low maintenance bike, and particularly don't want a new motor to start chewing Rohloff sprockets, with all the known difficulties of removing them. (Ironically, I started looking at the new motor kit while looking for a present for myself to celebrate being in so much better health that I could start bending over the bike again...)
3. What I actually want is more torque. Notice I don't say I need more torque. I have plenty for my purposes (I cycle and the motor fills in) and hills; I just want more. Central motors don't yet have the torque, watt for watt, of hub motors. I in fact already have the highest torque of any street-legal motor in my QSWXK, so to get more torque from a mid motor, I'd have to go up to 350 or more probably 500W.
4. I'm an old Porsche racer. I don't notice any problem with roadholding or handling from having the motor on the bike in the front. I reckon my Big Apples can handle twice that power before a central motor's better balance will become desireable enough to make any sacrifice for it. (My Big Apples have well over 7000km on them, about 3000 of those on the motor, and the motor has not caused any accelerated wear, in fact the front tyre is in better condition than the rear, indicating that the front can handle much more power.)
5. The torquier motor in the same range as the SWXK is the BPM, which comes in front or rear configurations, but is intended only for offroad use, starting at 350W. Some call the the SWXK the "little BPM" for its torque, but in fact there used to be a 250W BPM and Bafang withdrew it because it interfered with the sales of newer models.

That's just too many considerations to come to a decision, so I shelved the choice until midmotors grow more torque, and some way to control it, particularly at gear changes, at a reasonable price. That probably means torque-sensing and responding to it in a controlled manner.

It looks like you had much more luck, or skill, in narrowing your requirements down to an actual choice. Congratulations.

***

I can't tell how easy or difficult your chosen kit would be to fit. But if if you're buying it locally or anyway from a British dealer, get a completion guarantee in the form, "Okay, you say it is easy to fit, and I have experience of working on bikes, so, if I can't fit it, you guarantee to complete the job, free of charge." I know a fellow whose business selling extremely expensive hi-fi kits was built on that promise, and Velleman, the famous Belgian electronic kit vendor, for years gave that guarantee on their more expensive kits, and probably still does. I was amazed when the Velleman MD told me how rarely they have to meet their promise.

sd

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Re: Further pedelec discussion
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2014, 10:12:17 AM »
I would never belittle someone with health problems who used power assist  In fact as far as I am concerned you shouldn't belittle someone who has no health if they used power assist. Each to there own.
 I wish I could bring myself to buy one. I would save money and make me more independent. One bus a week can be problem when there's a need to carry heavy loads unassisted.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 05:05:45 PM by Danneaux »

jags

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Re: Further pedelec discussion
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2014, 03:46:09 PM »
Ian i'm just home from a lovely 50 mile spin,and i can tell you this if i had a motor on the audax i would have gladly used it 20 miles into a head wind is no joke when your back and feet are crying  with pain, i'm sitting hee in agony  ::) but still moaning besides it was a cracking spin.
photos on facebook sorry i cant post them here i'm a idiot when it come to tech things like that.

now now lads be kind to anto i'm in pain enough. ;)

jags.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 05:06:46 PM by Danneaux »

sd

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Re: Further pedelec discussion
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2014, 11:05:22 AM »
  Photobucket dead easy. But they give you 4 ways to post only one is suitable for posting on here which is the 4th option. Really surprised how easy it was.