Author Topic: Seized eccentric BB shell  (Read 9365 times)

rualexander

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Seized eccentric BB shell
« on: March 27, 2008, 04:26:35 PM »
Time has come to tighten the chain on Thorn Raven Tour but the eccentric has seized in the bottom bracket shell! Anyone else had this problem, any solutions? I have bent the Thorn tool for adjusting the eccentric! Must get some anti-seize grease or something for next time.

PH

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Re: Seized eccentric BB shell
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2008, 07:39:53 PM »
Turn it upside down, take the bolts right out and the chain off, spray in a bit of penetrating oil (or WD40), leave a short while and give it a good tap with a mallet.  Once it's moved a bit sideways it should be easy to work it loose.  I haven't had this, but I know tandem riders who have, just be thankful it's not a wedge type EBB.

rualexander

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Re: Seized eccentric BB shell
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2008, 08:20:34 PM »
Yep, that worked ok thanks, had to buy a rubber mallet though, and will have to get a new tool also. Something to be aware of for all Raven owners I think.

olekje

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Re: Seized eccentric BB shell
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2013, 07:32:17 PM »
I've got the same problem. A lot of salt is used on danish roads in winter, and my eccentric is really stuck.
I've tried beating with the rubber mallet, but it's still stuck.

Any ideas?

Danneaux

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Re: Seized eccentric BB shell
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2013, 08:07:02 PM »
Hi Olekje!

Andy Blance, Thorn's designer, has posted a full tutorial on how to remove a seized eccentric bottom bracket:
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/removingseizedeccentric.html

I would suggest removing the eccentric setscrews and adding a few drops of penetrating oil with the bike turned over. That should help break up any galvanic corrosion before employing AndyB's suggestions.

Hope this helps!

Best,

Dan.

Andre Jute

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Re: Seized eccentric BB shell
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2013, 09:23:18 PM »
Decisive advantage to Bernd Rohloff's own-design sliding Rohloff mounts. They may be a bit slower to set up than an EBB but they are in no danger of corroding onto the bike. -- Andre Jute

John Saxby

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Re: Seized eccentric BB shell
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2013, 02:46:06 AM »
This is all very helpful stuff to read before buying, about Things That Can Go Wrong.  Sliding/adjustable dropouts, eh?  Everything Old Is New Again:  today, I was tidying up my '57 AJS 350 cc ex-comp scrambler, to be sold this summer to create space & revenue for a Thorn Raven Tour.  This 55-year-old marvel of slightly agricultural (some would say "eccentric", ho ho ho) engineering also has sliding adjustable rear-axle mounts.  Tout ça change, tout ça reste de même...

J.

Andre Jute

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Re: Seized eccentric BB shell
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2013, 06:03:17 AM »
Generally speaking, European "trekking" bikes and American custom bikes have sliding dropouts and the guys who came up through road racing and see a touring bike or a commuter as a slightly more heavily built road bike (hence the survival of drop bars) do eccentric bottom brackets. Thorn doesn't give you a choice; nobody does; you take whatever a particular designer fancies. Andy Blance doesn't like the sliders. There's a piece he wrote about them somewhere, perhaps in one of the catalogues; years since I read it. The sliders are definitely heavier but I doubt that it is by enough to make a real difference.

There's an eccentric shell design, current on a few European offroad bikes, which has two lips under a split bottom bracket shell, the design and proportions being such that the eccentric bottom bracket is clamped by two or more bolts through the two lips pulling the shell tight about the EBB, the bolts not digging into the EBB's alloy at all, so that very fine adjustment is, at least in theory, permanently available. The entire purpose of this design is to avoid the EBB corroding fast into the shell. I don't know what to think about introducing a weak point at such a critical junction in a bike frame. One such EBB design, on a comfort bike, was on my shortlist once and the doubt was enough reason for it not to make the cut.

Andre Jute

Danneaux

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Re: Seized eccentric BB shell
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2013, 06:28:40 AM »
Hi Andre!

Good points, all.

I've often wondered why we don't see a split-shell eccentric with the split on the upper-rear side, between the rear of the seat tube and the top of the chainstays. Such a design would be self-closing under a rider's weight, unlike the more conventional version, which has the split on the underside...and will stress open against the closure bolts. Having built frames as a hobbyist, I am considering this upper-rear version on a future next effort. Of course a closed shell will always be ultimate stronger, but does the split represent a genuine weak point at the expected level of use for this application?

It would be interesting to instrument frames with each kind of EBB through a number of stress cycles...or review the customer warranty claims for each type. I suppose the economics of excessive claims would ultimately decide if there was a sufficient design margin. Too many warranty claims on a "lifetime" frame would soon result in a change, and we really aren't seeing that. Both kinds of BBs seem to be about equally long-lived, judging by the numbers of manufacturers continuing with each.

There's a couple more points to consider between eccentric BBs and sliding dropouts:

? EBBs tend to change the saddle-to-pedal relationship slightly when adjusted, but leave the rear wheel, brake blocks, and rear mudguard adjustments unaffected. One adjustment instead of two or three.

? Sliding dropouts can alter rear brake block adjustment (though only very slightly in Rohloff's carefully angled design), and if you run your mudguards close to the tire, you'd need to leave a bit of extra room or simply adjust accordingly and the rear wheel has to be squared with the frame. Saddle-to-pedal relationship remains untouched when chain tension is adjusted at the dropouts.

Really, either method and most of the variants work well in practice. You're absolutely correct; it is the Designer's Prerogative and no choice on the part of the buyer except to select a different model, as the cake is already baked by the time the bike is offered for sale.

To be completely fair, while the split EBB can be a weak point, the closed EBB shell has one as well (besides the possibility of seizing) -- it is possible for a ham-handed user to over-torque the grub screws and so ovalize the BB shell. An expensive oops and I have witnessed the results, though it takes some effort to accomplish. And, wedged eccentrics in closed shells can seize as well and require hammering out with every adjustment. Avoiding either sliding drops or EBBs of any sort puts us back to using tensioners -- effectively non-shifting derailleurs with added chain friction and reduced life from the small-diameter pulleys and double-back chain runs as well as greater exposure to road debris and damage.

You pays your money and takes your chances, just as you said.

All the best,

Dan. (...who owns two closed-shelled grub-screwed EBB bikes, but thinks there's more'n one way to skin a cat)

olekje

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Re: Seized eccentric BB shell
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2013, 09:38:30 AM »
Thanks a lot. That'll be my project for the coming weekend.
Couldn't find a link to Andy's manual anywhere on the Thorn webpage, how did you find it?

Andre Jute

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Re: Seized eccentric BB shell
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2013, 11:29:59 AM »
Good luck, Olekje.

I like your idea of a self-closing split bottom bracket, Dan, but only if the EBB is an absolute must. I think the sliders are a fundamentally superior solution, well worth the tiny weight penalty.

Forget going back to a chain tensioner. That's a horror we're well rid of in Rohloff tourers, though the more poorly designed rear-suspended bikes still require a tensioner. (The solution is put the bottom bracket on the rear swingarm, preferably with the pivot concentric with the bottom bracket.)

Just the thought of a tensioner makes me shiver, man. Probably cost me a third of the chain life I worked up to over the years of refining my bike.

Andre Jute

olekje

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Re: Seized eccentric BB shell
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2013, 03:01:41 PM »
Couldn't find a link to Andy's manual anywhere on the Thorn webpage, how did you find it?
Found it
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/faq.html

JimK

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Re: Seized eccentric BB shell
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2013, 04:13:04 PM »

ajbenie

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Re: Seized eccentric BB shell
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2013, 09:15:37 PM »
An additional tip for Olekje, if you haven't already fixed your problem. I've had exactly the same problem when I tried to adjust the EBB on my Nomad. The first is to wash off any salt from around the EBB, if the roads around you are like the ones in Væløse then that's a must. The second is warm the bike up! I couldn't shift mine until I brought the bike indoors overnight then it was easy as pie ( it was -10C in my garage, when I tried)
/Andy

Danneaux

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Re: Seized eccentric BB shell
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2013, 09:16:58 PM »
Good suggestions, Andy; welcome to the Thorn Cycling Forums!

Best,

Dan.