Stainless Belt Drive Rodriguez Rohloff w/couplers

[swc7916]

I don't know if you all can see this on their Facebook page, but check out the pics of R+E's latest Rohloff bike:

https://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/rodriguez.bicycles

[Danneaux]

Hi Steve!

R&E do make lovely bicycles. Living here in the Pacific Northwest, I see them occasionally and am always impressed by their design and workmanship. I once had the pleasure of meeting Angel Rodriguez and Glenn Erickson, and found them to be very engaging and pleasant people to speak with. They were both real craftsmen, and it was always a real joy to see their latest designs.

They have now left R&E for other pursuits, but the service and frame shops carry on with the old R&E name under the direction of Dan Towle, a former employee ( http://www.rodbikes.com/articles/web_articles/mr_rodriguez.html ). He is a talented and thoughtful writer on bicycle-related topics, and has written a number of interesting articles...with topics related to future-proofing bike design, chaos in the industry, and non-standardized designs. R&E feel very strongly that when you buy a bike, you also a bike shop and service what they build.

R&E do have a sometimes remarkably different view from Thorn when it comes to configuring a Rohloff drivetrain. The R&E FAQ has a section detailing their Rohloff philosophy here: http://www.rodbikes.com/articles/popups/rohloff-clickbox.html

To briefly summarize, R&E...
= Don't like Rohloff EX click-boxes (but use them with disc brakes).
= Prefer open cable runs along the left downtube and chainstay.
= Much prefer (Bushnell) eccentric BBs to other forms of Rohloff chain-tensioning, incuding slotted/sliding dropouts and chain tensioners.

They have also developed the (Dave) Bushnell bottom-bracket eccentric in-house and prefer it to a pinch-bolt approach. I think it is fairest to say that like Andy Blance at Thorn, R&E have developed a design philosophy that works well for them and their customers...but the two approaches differ in some key ways and are diametrically opposite at times. Which is "best" depends on what the customer is looking for and how the bikes will be used.
R&E's FAQ is here (includes their Rohloff philosophy): http://www.rodbikes.com/articles/faq.html
Their article repository is here: http://www.rodbikes.com/articles/web_articles/article-index.html
Bushnell eccentric: http://www.rodcycle.com/eccentric.html
(Story behind the Bushnell eccentric): http://www.rodbikes.com/articles/ebb-article/ebb-article.html
Bushnell's site with FAQ at bottom of page: http://www.bushnelltandems.com/eccentric.html

...And here are some links to articles Dan and others have written; these have applicability across the industry:
Thoughts on what makes a bike comfortable: http://www.rodcycle.com/articles/comfort.html
Industry weight claims: http://www.rodbikes.com/articles/web_articles/weight-a-minute.html
Changing standards and dimensions -- for profit!: http://www.rodbikes.com/articles/web_articles/chaos.html
Considerations for a "forever" bike: http://www.rodbikes.com/articles/web_articles/chaos.html
Are smaller wheels slower?: http://www.rodbikes.com/articles/650-speed.html
On discs brakes vs v-brakes and cantis: http://www.rodbikes.com/articles/brakes.html
On the diminishing returns and increased costs of ever more "speeds": http://www.rodbikes.com/articles/web_articles/retrogrouch.html
On the value of steel vs. other frame materials: http://www.rodbikes.com/articles/material-world.html

Best,

Dan.

[keleher]

That Bushnell is a nice-seeming piece of kit. I've never liked the thorn approach as it's inherently destructive. On the other hand, I've had no problems w/ it, once I comfortably exceeded the recommended torque...

[Danneaux]

On the other hand, I've had no problems w/ it, once I comfortably exceeded the recommended torque...

Hi Pete!

As an added precaution, I plan to measure the amont of exposed threads on the eccentric anchor grub screws. In addition to torque, then I'll have distance and a thread count to go by. Either/both the latter might be handy if I need to make an adjustment while on-tour, away from my torque wrench.

Best,

Dan. (trying to be foresighted...)

[swc7916]

Thorn uses grub screws for their eccentrics?  Ugh.  That is really crude.

I once had a Gary Fisher tandem with that type of eccentric and the indents made by the grub screws made it hard to make fine adjustments after a while.  An internally-expanding eccentric is the only way to go and Dennis Bushnell's is the best.

[Andre Jute]

I've never understood what Andy Blance has against sliding hangers for the Rohloff. They work well, they work well forever, they don't wear out, and the only downside is that they are a little costly in that locator channels must be built on the bike and the sliders must be carved to leave locator strips prominent. But Rohloff gives out free engineering drawings for all this (I have a set), so it's a doddle to implement, and you can buy excellent quality Rohloff frame ends and gearbox hangers almost anywhere.

There are only two ways to make eccentric bottom bracket holders that don't wear out with adjustment, and depressingly fast at that. One is to make the eccentric expand within itself, which is expensive engineering that someone has to pay for. It too wears out eventually. The other is to split the bottom bracket tube on the bike and bolt it up around the eccentric, and unbolt it again whenever adjustment is required. That weakens the frame in the worst possible spot. As you can imagine, I view the Gates belt drive and split stays with jaundiced prejudice.

Personally, I'd rather have nice sliders, and if the designer can turn them into a feature, as on a 2008 Cannondale Rohloff Trekking I ordered five minutes after they sold the last one in the world, or almost any David Bohm custom bike, so much the better.

Andre Jute

[wheezy]

Their dislike of the Ex box seems to amount to a belief that it's difficult to get it re-attached after removing the wheel. I've never found this to be the case. It helps if the shifter is left in 1st or 14th when you undo it, but if it does move, a quick jiggle of the shifter while pressing on the box soon drops it home.

Getting the locator pegs to slot into the Monkeybone while at the same time lining the wheel up in the drop-outs, however, can be a pain for the cack-handed.

I chose a Bushnell eccentric over sliding drop-outs purely on aesthetics. It just looked a lot tidier to me. It seems to work very well.

[swc7916]

I started this post because I really liked R+E's latest Rohloff bike, but it seems to have turned into a debate about eccentrics......

Anyway -

I've never really debated the issue with Scott at R+E, but it appears that they don't like the click box for two reasons: One is that that the shifter can be rotated while the click box is disconnected, resulting in fewer than 14 gears when reconnected and the second is that the click box is more difficult to set up.  I personally like the click box though I always shift to gear 1 or 14 before removing it so that the shifting doesn't get messed up.  I also carry a small open-end wrench to shift the hub with the wheel off.

I also like the use of an eccentric over sliding hangers for adjusting chain tension.  The only downside that I see to them is that rotating the eccentric changes the seat-to-pedal relationship.  My tandem has TWO eccentrics, which creates a problem that I hadn't foreseen: The front eccentric takes up the "stretch" of BOTH chains, which means that it can run out of adjustment (turn all the way forward) and not take all the slack out of the timing chain.

[Andre Jute]

A Rohloff owner who can't learn to jiggle the rotary control to get his EXT clickbox back on with all the gears operable had better have his bike serviced by a mechanic. In any event, a fellow that cackhanded will never succeed in recabling the internal shifter. His bikemaker has just pushed him from the fat into the fire.

Andre Jute

[swc7916]

It's kind of hard to jiggle the rotary control on a tandem - it's too far away.  But then again, that's what the stoker is for. 

[wheezy]

Just jiggle it with your toes, while pressing on the box with an outstretched hand.

[il padrone]

I do much prefer the Bushnell-style eccentric for chain tensioning. I have one on our tandem, it works well and is much easier to adjust than the bolts on the Thorn. I bought one for the Thorn Nomad, only to sadly discover that the Bushnell was about 1-2 mms too big to fit in. Why oh why can we not have some sort of standard dimensions 

I now have a too-large Bushnell BB that one day I might be able to get someone to machine down a mm or so too fit.

[keleher]

I do much prefer the Bushnell-style eccentric for chain tensioning. I have one on our tandem, it works well and is much easier to adjust than the bolts on the Thorn. I bought one for the Thorn Nomad, only to sadly discover that the Bushnell was about 1-2 mms too big to fit in. Why oh why can we not have some sort of standard dimensions 

I now have a too-large Bushnell BB that one day I might be able to get someone to machine down a mm or so too fit.

Ouch. I was thinking about this as a possible upgrade as well.