Author Topic: New Rohloff model  (Read 8852 times)

JC

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New Rohloff model
« on: April 29, 2011, 11:30:23 PM »
Geez the new Rohloff model is taking its time! Any word on its progress anyone?

vik

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Re: New Rohloff model
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2011, 10:10:58 PM »
Geez the new Rohloff model is taking its time! Any word on its progress anyone?

I have no expectation of seeing a new Rohloff any time soon. It may happen and then again it may not. I cerainly wouldn't be holding my breathe.

safe riding,

Vik
www.thelazyrando.com
Safe riding,

Vik
www.thelazyrando.com

Andre Jute

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Re: New Rohloff model
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2011, 01:39:57 PM »
Geez the new Rohloff model is taking its time! Any word on its progress anyone?

I have to tell you, I never thought it likely we would see that particular new Rohloff model, even when the engineer in charge of it was telling us he was making the release video.

Think about it. The Rohloff is a wide range hub gearbox of the utmost durability. So they make a new model with a range a little wider, and produce a bit lighter, and say it breaks only 50% more often than the original model, then boom goes the entire company's reputation built up over so long. It's too big a risk.

And for what return?

From a marketing viewpoint, two models that close are simply confusing to customers. The new model was neither fish nor fowl. It wasn't light enough for road bikes, and, whatever the tourers say in their first enthusiasm about a new model, when it came time to spend big bucks on specifying their next bike, my bet is that they would listen to their dream of crossing Katmandu and go for the proven, reliable, original Rohloff. This on top of the fact that we (touring and utility bikers) are in the minority of Rohloff sales, the majority, offroaders, being even more focused on low service and reliability than we are. From a marketing viewpoint that particular additional Rohloff model never made the slightest sense.

It isn't for nothing that the SON hub dynamo, often specified alongside the Rohloff, is called the Schmidt ORIGINAL Nabendynamo.

***

I'm a light user. For me a Rohloff is an out and out luxury, bought because I can afford it and don't want to get oil on my hands too often; I shall never wear out my Rohloff in my lifetime. Would I buy the new model, as it is specified? No, I would notl It doesn't offer even me anything worth paying a premium for, or sacrificing the slightest reliability for. Would Thorn specify it as the standard box instead of the original? Don't make me laugh. Thorn sells bikes for extreme touring and extreme reliability. Maybe as an option with a warning that the hard cases should choose the one and only and best ORIGINAL. Who doesn't want to be a hard case? Even us older chappies dream of making the tours Vik makes, and some of the other guys here.

Who would specify the new Rohloff box? I ride a German Utopia, more expensive and refined than a Thorn, but also with a big reputation for reliable transworld tours. Significantly, Utopia was the first manufacturer to specify Rohloff hub gearboxes as standard fittings, so they have a longer track record with Rohloff than anyone else. Utopia bikes are so expensive, I suspect they are largely sold to the middle-aged who simply want the best and don't ask whether it makes any sense to buy a bike so overdeveloped and overbuilt and over-everything. Here's a market that, unlike Thorn's market which I suspect watches the value received carefully (it's why Thorn is perennially on my shortlist), will pay for the lighter gearbox without asking any of the questions I posed above. Utopia itself is in the habit of specifying only parts to its own custom specification, and tested even beyond the German government and bicycle industry's rigorous requirements, so they have routine means to discover how reliable the new Rohloff actually is. Will Utopia specify the lighter gearbox? Maybe as an option, and if it tests well perhaps with a warmer recommendation than I would expect from Thorn, but a couple of lines further it will say the same thing, if you are thinking about that midwinter ride from Berlin to Leningrad, we recommend the one and only, the ORIGINAL Rohloff 500/14.

***

That new Rohloff box sitting on a bench in Germany is dead in the water, killed by its older brother, which is just too big and too tough and too established a competitor to overcome.

***

Is there space for an alternative Rohloff gearbox? I don't know. Maybe. Here's one I would pay a premium for:

I live up a very steep hill. I need very low gears to get up it, and I pride myself that I ride up it when roadies are pushing. I ride, seconds and minutes from my door in any direction, on hilly countryside where the downhills can be very fast. The 500/14 doesn't in fact offer me a wide enough range; I have to compromise a little at one end or the other. It isn't enough of an irritation even to consider going to derailleurs, or sacrificing the reliability of what I have already for a marginal increase in range (as in the unreleased new model Rohloff).

But what if I could get a big jump in range, together with, though less important (to me personally), a substantial cut in weight, what would I be willing to sacrifice for it? I'd be happy to pay a financial premium of a third or even a half if I didn't have to sacrifice reliability. For the same price as the original 500/14, I'd be happy to sacrifice half the known 100,000km+ durability of the original Rohloff box. But for that large price (in either money or reliability) I'd want a future-proof box, say 700% range. However, I'd be willing to accept unequal spacing between gears, and wider spacing between gears than now, so that 14 gears would still be enough, as long as at the bottom they were as close as at present. In short, this would a specialized commuter/light touring box, and would probably sacrifice any offroad capability along with (very likely) some durability.

I don't know how many customers would agree. Maybe the heavy commuters would consider the weight saving important -- I'm not a commuter but, if I were, I'd choose the durability of the original Rohloff box for low long-term cost and reliability. I don't see a hub gearbox that would interest us being made light enough to appeal to the roadie crowd, and the box I've described has clearly compromised offroad capability. So how big a market does that leave?

I bet 50 pence each way that the alternative desirable Rohloff every contributor here specifies has something in common -- that they're each and every one different from all the others!

Let's hear your dream spec for a Rohloff gearbox, but specify what you will pay for it as either a percentage money premium or a cut in durability or something else you're willing to sacrifice.

***

CONCLUSION
The key appeal of the original Rohloff Speedhub 500/14 is that by accident rather than design it was created all things to all the cyclists who have the nous to appreciate and want it and the money to pay for it. That's a terrific barrier for any alternative Rohloff gearbox to surmount.

Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Bicycles at
 http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLING.html

Danneaux

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Re: New Rohloff model
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2011, 06:01:02 PM »
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Let's hear your dream spec for a Rohloff gearbox

Okay...

I remain terribly intrigued by the Rohloff IGH, and might well have considered it for my recent Thorn purchase  if the price on entry had not been (for me) so staggeringly high.  As an American buyer, the extra costs of import duties, shipping, and exchange rates simply put it out of reach.

Perhaps because I have never ridden one and have all my experience with derailleur-equipped bicycles, I don't quite understand why we don't see more "hybrid" Rohloffs, equipped with two chainrings, a front derailleur and shift lever, and a rear tensioner.  This would seem to address Andre's wishes for a wider range and finer steps, and surely the maintenance issues would still be far less than an exposed cassette.  Using chainrings only a tooth or two apart would make for easy front shifting (a la my preferred half-step der gearing), and would nicely split every available "gear" in a Rohloff.  The advantages of the Rohloff would still remain, with (rear) shifting while stopped and an even progression of and access to the next gear (or every other gear, with the half-step hybrid).  Chain suck could be a problem, I suppose, but that is easily resolved with anti-chainsuck devices, and a T/A-style double-cyclocross chain guard or bash guard and N-Gear Jumpstop would eliminate any possibility for dropping the chain as it has on my Sherpa.  One could still reverse the cogs and chainrings to double life compared to a purely derailleur bike.  With adequate chain-wrap at the rear cog, there should be no chain skipping under load.  Chainline should not be an issue.  The only real additional maintenance would be idler and tension pulleys at the rear, and that should be minor.  Chainlife should still be exceptionally good provided a 7/8-sp chain is used. In the event of a tensioner failure, one could still revert to a dedicated Rohloff IGH drivetrain, provided the bike is equipped with a native means for chain tensioning (i.e. an eccentric BB).

As a longtime Frank Berto gearing disciple, the Rohloff's even spacing is for me not quite right...the percentage gaps between gears should be larger at the low end and tighter at the upper, and while the range overall compares to contemporary 3x9 derailleur gearing, it misses the additional combinations and functional refinement of a really good 3-7 der half-step; my last had intuitive, easy and reliable shifting with 16/21 usable speeds, 18/21 with long chainstays.  A hybrid system would solve these issues.  Sachs' old 3x7 hybrid system did this in reverse, using the IGH to replace a triple crank and front mech.  In my opinion, this got it backwards and made for the worst of both worlds.  Looking on, a hybrid Rohloff would seem to get it right since the IGH replaces the cassette.

To answer the second part of Andre's call...

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specify what you will pay for it as either a percentage money premium or a cut in durability or something else you're willing to sacrifice.

...Additional cost for a hybrid IGH/der setup should be minimal, yet the payoff would be great for those like me who look at a Rohloff and see something missing.

Please help me understand what's not to love about a hybrid Rohloff, which at first glance to the uninitiated (me) would seem Ideal.

Thanks and best to all,

Dan.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2011, 06:07:55 PM by Danneaux »

Andre Jute

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Re: New Rohloff model
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2011, 11:34:49 PM »
I don't quite understand why we don't see more "hybrid" Rohloffs, equipped with two chainrings, a front derailleur and shift lever, and a rear tensioner.

No, Dan, you haven't got the idea of the Rohloff yet. A Rohloff bike couples the simplicity of a one-speed bike with 14 speeds and a wide range. It does without the mess and unreliability of derailleurs. It's a clean installation in both senses of the word, no oil on your hands or clothes because you can cover the whole thing with a chain case (as I do), and aesthetically there are no dangly bits, derailleurs and tensioners and suchlike. Rohloff people tend to regard any installation which requires a chain tensioner as less than competent. A Rohloff-equipped bike is for people who purely hate derailleurs.

In any event, there are hybrid bikes, though they're both cleverer and more understated than extra chainrings and derailleurs. Florian Schlumpf (pic of designer http://www.foldabikes.com/CurrentEvents/Listing5/gallery66.html ) offers a two-speed bottom bracket gearbox called the Schlumpf Speed-drive which increases the range of the Rohloff box to 868%. See Rohloff's list of streng verbotens about the various Schlumpf BB drives at http://www.rohloff.de/index.php?id=1350&L=1&tx_ttnews[day]=11&tx_ttnews[month]=07&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=1849&tx_ttnews[year]=2005&cHash=c94c4702cdd001eb7a2079c64bdabd3f&no_cache=1&sword_list[0]=schlumpf -- mainly that you can extend the high end but not the low end, because the lowest 2.35 ratio (around 19 gear inches on 60x622 Big Apples) remains in force. (Check out Andy Blance on the subject of Rohloff covering its arse with both hands by overly conservative ratings. I could, and may in time when I'm old and decrepit, go down to 16 gear inches, though at the cost of losing my warranty.) So, how many gear inches do you think you can pull? (Mmm, in the days of the high wheelers that was not a metaphor: our gear inches are directly related to the circumference of a direct-drive high-wheeler's tyre. The taller it was, the stronger the rider needed to be.) Schlumf is at http://www.schlumpf.ch/hp/schlumpf/schlumpf_engl.htm and the American importer is at http://www.cyclemonkey.com/schlumpf-innovations.shtml but, I'm sorry to report, a Schlumpf speed drive installation will cost about the same as a Rohloff installation.

I considered the Schlumpf Speed-drive on several of occasions back before the rise of the Swiss Franc made it so horrifyingly expensive, a question Herr Schlumpf has now addressed by moving production to Germany, so that eventually the price should fall back to something reasonable, say a third but certainly less than half the price of a Rohloff installation. On the first occasion I decided instead to fit the real thing, a Rohloff, instead of adding a Schlumpf to double the number of ratios on a Shimano Nexus hub gearbox. On each of the other occasions I found the price  and the requirement to machine the bottom bracket of my bike a bit off-putting, and decided instead just to cruise down the hills rather than pedal to max speed; I was going quite fast enough! Still, though not for me, the Schlumpf is a most elegant solution to extending the range of the Rohloff.

At the lower end I may at some time have an inescapable need for lower gears. As I described elsewhere, I've already fitted an electric motor in a successful experiment, and I will happily follow Andy Blance into mildly illegal Rohloff ratios, so the totally illegal Schlumpf Mountain-drive, which I also looked at, isn't necessary.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 05:44:38 AM by Hobbes »

Danneaux

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Re: New Rohloff model
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2011, 01:28:06 AM »
Quote
No, Dan, you haven't got the idea of the Rohloff yet...

<nods>  Yes, Andre, I think you've hit the nail squarely on the head here, and in truth I really cannot fully "get" the concept without trying one myself or talking with an owner.  That's why I'm glad I have you guys.  :D  I'm getting there, bit by bit.

It sounds to me (seriously and without a trace of sarcasm) as if there's a Rohloff Ethos, as it were, that encompasses an entire philosophy beyond the mechanism.  

Looking on from afar (and used as I am to derailleurs), it is not just about low maintenance, convenient shift sequences and incredible reliability as I had thought.  Instead, it seems to be about other things as well, that we might call an elegant cycling aesthetic, with an underlying set of principles that guide the execution.  In this case, the  elegance is found in apparent minimalism.  And...that's alright!  To those who haven't ridden one, Brooks saddles must seem the same, with their lack of visible padding, hard surfaces, and need for the occasional Proofiding.  Nearly every novitiate who sees mine taps it with a fingernail, casts an incredulous look, and then shakes their head in a mixture of wonder and pity over my apparent mental state.  I can almost hear them think:  "He's out on the same roads *I* am...oh, my...must watch this one".  To me, adding a gel cover to a B.17 equals travesty.

I really do thank you for the insight, Andre, and I realize now why such appurtenances and appendages are undesirable; they are akin to a kludge that dilutes the clean execution of the Rohloff Ethos.  Might a belt drive be the ultimate expression of  this philosophy?  It is elegant, silent, and doesn't grease one's trousers.

As it happens, I learned about the Schlumpf Drive before I knew much about the Rohloff.  As someone with a background in automotive repair and torque multiplication, I can only imagine the mayhem possible from combining a Schlumpf underdrive with a Rohloff hub;  I could imagine this combo easily spreading a Thorn dropout or shearing the tab on the short reaction arm.  There really can be too much of a good thing!  

As for gear range, I empathize with your hill-climbing needs, Andre.  I live at the southern end of Oregon's Willamette Valley, situated between the Coast Range and the Coburgs, foothills to the Cascades.  A ride in every direction except north involves climbing, and the grades can be steep.  "Back in the day" before commercial adapters, I made my own, using freewheel cogs as inner chainrings.  12 gear-inches proved to be the practical lower limit, provided one maintained a continued high cadence to keep balance at 2.5mph/4kph.  Loaded touring bikes make lousy wheelbarrows, so this did have the advantage of riding over pushing up 24% grades.  At the other end, I have set an arbitrary upper limit for myself of about 90-odd gear inches; I simply cannot pull higher gears and hope to keep my knees intact.  When the 90 is spun out downhill, I let gravity hold sway.  On the tandem, that usually tops out at about 63mph/101kph; with the Arai drag brake, about 42mph/68kph.  Fast enough for me and a screaming stoker.

I love this thread, and look forward to learning more; thanks, everyone!

Best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 02:29:53 AM by Danneaux »

Andre Jute

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Re: New Rohloff model
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2011, 06:35:41 AM »
Heh-heh. If I didn't live in glorious West Cork (see the photos in the sample pages in West Cork: A Place Apart http://www.amazon.com/West-Cork-Place-Jo-Kerrigan/dp/1847171664/ Declaration of interest: he's an old mate who took a particularly flattering publicity photo of me, and she's a favourite ex-editor) I'd live in Oregon. I've done the ton on my bike, a specially prepared Trek that Trek Benelux helped me engineer, truck assisted, on a closed road, in that interregnum when even the small roads were well-surfaced here. But normally I'm satisfied with about two thirds that on familiar downhills because the lanes I ride are little and my big is huge -- it just looks in photos like it might be RT sized because the wheels are so big, so that it understeers at the limit (standard German safety design, as everyone who ever pressed on in a Mercedes S class knows).

But, to return to the topic momentarily. I don't think Rohloff has the faintest intention of making any gearbox that they will rate (as distinct from its true capability) for more torque, and consequently lower gearing, than the current one. Bernd Rohloff is an offroad mountain-biker, not a tourer or a commuter. He designed his gearbox for mud pluggers, and that is why it naturally works best with the mountain bike range, plus a bit because German engineers just can't help overachieving their quotas.  That's also what accounts for its agricultural design and strength. We represent a very small part, if articulate and vocal, of the Rohloff market. I've heard the argument made in German that with 38x16 I get down to 19.5 gear inches already within Rohloff specs, with a fast enough top -- if only I could pull it! -- of 102.6 gear inches. And, in truth, if I were ten years younger, I'd probably make the same argument; it does seem a bit greedy to ask for more at the top just to hustle on the downhills. To the commuters here, that probably seems a grotesquely low gearing choice but my justification is that I cycle up a hill where roadies decades younger have to push. Since that hill is right in front of my house, that's a significant daily consideration, and by itself justifies the Rohloff...

Er, Dan, I don't want offend a good correspondent, but have you read or been told yet that the top three gears on a Rohloff box are intended as overdrives? The idea is that you gear so you can pull the direct 1:1 gear 11 in  the box on the flat, which with my gearing is only 70 gear inches. I have a spreadsheet I made when I was deciding whether, in the light of already owning two Shimano hub gearboxes, one of them the full Di2 Cyber Nexus (not the cut down DuraAce cheapie <g>), I could justify treating myself to a Rohloff. If you want a copy -- it's in Excel but I can probably put it into Apple's Numbers for you, or just write it out as tab or comma delimited -- drop me a note to andrejute at coolmainpress with the commercial extension. (Anyone else is welcome to ask too.)

Danneaux

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Re: New Rohloff model
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2011, 08:03:14 AM »
Quote
Er, Dan, I don't want offend a good correspondent

No offense taken!  I've enjoyed the correspondence and opportunity to learn more of what Rohloffs are about.  You and this forum are a terrific resource in that regard. 

Quote
have you read or been told yet that the top three gears on a Rohloff box are intended as overdrives? The idea is that you gear so you can pull the direct 1:1 gear 11 in  the box on the flat

<nods> Yes, I can see why one would want their most-used touring ratio to also be the most efficient.  And no, I hadn't really tumbled to the idea of three overdrives above DD.  What concerns me a bit is it appears the greatest losses occur in the lowest gears, just where one would want the greatest efficiency while climbing.  Have you found this to be a drawback or even noticeable in use?

Also, if I may ask, what is your usual cadence while cruising?  I'm a fast, light spinner and usually hum along at ~110rpm for hours on end.  What I don't handle well is low cadence in the higher ratios (having once removed a window crank and steering column cover and bent a shift lever with my knees as a youth).  No problem handling hills with high pedal forces so long as I can keep my cadence high.  I'm wondering if the Rohloff might favor a different pedaling style?  You see, a majority of my fast riding is in a 65" gear, which works out to about 21mph/34kph at my preferred cadence.  A more relaxed cruise on level ground in a 55" gear puts me at about 17mph/27kph.  If I went with a Rohloff, then I'd need an equivalent low DD ratio and I fear that might be verboten.

Terrific offer on the spreadsheet, Andre; I'll contact you tomorrow, my time.  I'm writing from earlier your today, and need to get to bed.

All the best,

Dan.

Andre Jute

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Re: New Rohloff model
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2011, 10:29:09 AM »
I'm a masher. Having no background as a roadie, my best cadence is 40rpm.

***

The Rohloff box is in fact two planetary gear sets. The lowest seven make a sort of sighing sound when the box is new, which can be infuriating because it suggest psychosomatically that you're working harder than you really are. The noise becomes less as the Rohloff box is run in. Chalo Colina says, paraphrased, "A Rohloff is run in roundabout the time one of the lesser hub gearboxes reaches the end of its service life. Mine is significantly smoother and quieter at 5000km than when new.

You're right, the lowest seven gears include some of those that are the least efficient, at least theoretically, but there is considerable evidence that no one notices it once they become used to the increased noise in that range. As a psychologist, and moreover one with extensive experience in double blind taste testing, I know that you can bet your house that such small differences are not perceptible in use. So, no, I didn't expect to find any perceptible loss, and didn't find any real loss, though the psychological effect of those sighing gears is real enough in the first couple of thousand kilometres (measured as respiration rate increased by about 8% on known routes, but falling away quickly as the silliness of allowing myself to be influenced became obvious.) Now I go on average about 6% faster on the Rohloff-geared bike than on the bike before it, possibly because of the design and components of the Kranich, which once it is rolling keeps rolling; compare the effect of Big Apples v Marathon Plus. Late in the summer I was going 9% faster on the Rohloff on several consecutive days, on a bike that is much heavier now because on the level the electric motor and hefty battery is 13kg of dead weight.

Must sleep. Ciao.

Andre Jute

revelo

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Re: New Rohloff model
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2011, 06:40:21 PM »
Okay...

Perhaps because I have never ridden one and have all my experience with derailleur-equipped bicycles, I don't quite understand why we don't see more "hybrid" Rohloffs, equipped with two chainrings, a front derailleur and shift lever, and a rear tensioner.  

The whole reason I got a Rohloff is because of how much grit gets into derailleurs when touring on gravel roads. I recently spent a month in the Mojave desert area of the southwest United States. Grit everywhere after a light rain, so that the front derailleur had problems shifting into low gear because there was grit under the low limit screw and the chain jammed when I backpedaled because the jockey wheels were all covered with grit. I was using a MTB and have since ordered a Nomad MK2, since I anticipate much more touring like this in the future now that I'm retired.

If you are touring on pavement, I see no huge advantage to Rohloff. Derailleurs work fine if they can be kept clean and you replace the chain, cassette and chainrings as needed. But dirt roads is another story.

I didn't have fenders, but I doubt they would have helped. Everything eventually gets covered with dirt and grit when you travel on dirt roads, fenders or no fenders.

Danneaux

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Re: New Rohloff model
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2011, 07:31:41 PM »
Hi Revelo,

Good point; I often tour crossing dry lakes in the Great Basin ( http://giantloopmoto.blogspot.com/2011/04/dr-dan-hardcore-2-wheeled-adventurer.html ) and yes, grit is a pervasive problem.  The fine, talc-like corrosive alkali dust gets everywhere, which is one reason why I was so delighted to find my Sherpa has no frame vent holes; one less thing to have to shield with tape or plug with beeswax.

With derailleurs, I've found fenders help greatly, but with a few provisos...

1) They have to clear the tires by quite a bit more than in other uses, as when the playa gets wet, it tends to concretize.  If the fenders hug the tires too closely, the wheels will lock, sooner or later (real quick, if you're going cross-country and it rains).

2) Mudflaps -- long ones -- are as important as the fenders.  Without them, there's no way the drivetrain on a derailleur bike stands a chance of coming through unclogged.  I use a front flap by Buddy Flaps ( http://www.buddyflaps.com/ ) and size it so a straight-edge coming from the front tire's point of contact and grazing the lower edge of the mudlap clears the chainrings by a good margin (one has to allow for a bit of blowback, but the 3mm thick BuddyFlaps are pretty stiff while allowing enough flexibility to prevent a fender breakage when ramming through sagebrush and past low juniper).

3) Slick tires help, or those with minimal tread.  Knobbier versions tend to retain and flick grit, especially if wet.  Easier to scrape clean, too.

Sealed cartridge bearings everywhere possible helps as well, and that's why I can see the essentially sealed Rohloff would be a great help.  Also, no need for a front derailleur or hybrid setup off-road as one generally needs coarser jumps as they churn along and hit soft spots in the sand, or through deep, loose gravel and stream beds.

So happy to hear you have a Nomad Mk 2 on the way; it is long till delivery?  It'll be great to see photos...

Best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 08:00:44 PM by Danneaux »