Author Topic: Bike weight: What's "too heavy" for a daily rider?  (Read 4138 times)

CycleTourer

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Bike weight: What's "too heavy" for a daily rider?
« on: July 22, 2022, 03:54:49 PM »
Always puzzled when I see or hear of a Nomad being used as a bike for local use. I’m grateful that this strong expedition bike has taken me all over the world, but whenever I ride it locally (e.g. to and from service at an LBS) I can’t help but think it is way too heavy and overbuilt for anything but expedition use.

Matt2matt2002

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Re: Bike weight: What's "too heavy" for a daily rider?
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2022, 04:08:06 PM »
Wow. Kew Gardens. [Matt's comment references topic http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=14672.0 ...I split the original topic and Matt's post bridged the two, old and new. -- Dan.]
That takes me back. Way way back.
The last time I visited, entry was 3d.
Now it's £16.00+ with advanced booking.
Surely the trees can't have grown that much in 55 years?

Re Nomad used for a run around; let's hear it for the Raven. Lighter and robust for most loaded touring. And a reasonably light run around.

Best

Matt
« Last Edit: July 22, 2022, 08:04:19 PM by Danneaux »
Never drink and drive. You may hit a bump  and spill your drink

PH

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Re: Bike weight: What's "too heavy" for a daily rider?
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2022, 06:08:28 PM »
Always puzzled when I see or hear of a Nomad being used as a bike for local use. I’m grateful that this strong expedition bike has taken me all over the world, but whenever I ride it locally (e.g. to and from service at an LBS) I can’t help but think it is way too heavy and overbuilt for anything but expedition use.
Could that maybe go in another thread? [Done. Now here. :) - Dan.] It comes up at least once a month, the answer is it's not much heavier than any other steel frame. maybe start a "What does your bike weigh" thread if we don't already have one.
I'm not puzzled by what anyone rides, I assume they know what they want and what suits them, but good for someone who makes getting to work an expedition and equally those who've gone round the world on a road bike.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2022, 08:05:39 PM by Danneaux »

mickeg

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Re: Bike weight: What's "too heavy" for a daily rider?
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2022, 09:06:57 PM »
I consider my Nomad Mk II as my expedition bike because it is great for that.  Fourth photo. NOTE:  PREVIOUSLY HAD THE WRONG PHOTO, CHANGED PHOTOS ON JUL 23.  And substituting a photo changed order of photos, so the text was modified for that.

But I do not own a mountain bike with a front suspension, the Mk II frame can be used with a 100mm suspension, so although it is not really a good mountain bike, it is the best mountain bike I own.  First photo.  The handlebar bag clearly needed better support.

My only set of studded tires fit into the Nomad frame, 2 inch width 26 inch Marathon Winters.  So, it is my winter bike for ice and snow.  Second photo.  Yeah, there are better bikes but it is the best I have for this sort of thing.

And for riding around, we have some gravel trails that have periodic very soft sand spots where repair crews put beach sand in to repair washouts, so you can be riding along and suddenly if you have narrow tires your tires sink into the sand and friends of mine have been hurt from sudden unexpected falls.  I ride the Nomad MK II with 57mm mountain bike tires on those trails.  Did not bother with a photo.

It is not my first choice for dry pavement riding, but I have found many uses for my Nomad, such as the above.

It is a much heavier bike than I needed for my Canadian Maritimes trip, my Thorn Sherpa would have been a better bike or maybe even my titanium touring bike.  But, the logistics of getting from my home to Halfax NS, Canada were very complicated and my Nomad Mk II is my only S&S coupled bike, so that is the bike I took.  Third photo.  Carrying a few extra pounds of bike weight was only a minor inconvenience compared to my Sherpa on this trip.

I have several bikes, this year I have ridden six or seven of my bikes.  The Nomad Mk II is only one of several.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2022, 01:29:17 PM by mickeg »

martinf

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Re: Bike weight: What's "too heavy" for a daily rider?
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2022, 09:41:06 PM »
What's "too heavy" for a daily rider?

Depends. I had a 44 km daily commute at one time, 22 km each way.

As well as varying the route, I also varied the bikes to compare them over the same route, adding some other changes of tyres, gears and bars (so riding position).

All my bikes were capable of doing the commute, from my mountain bike with off-road tyres to my lightweight 700C dérailleur bike.

I had fun comparing the perceived difference due to changes between bikes, or changing various components on the same bike.

Most suitable on my "standard route" were:

- my lightweight 700C derailleur bike, in dry conditions (fastest). An old Moulton, setup with derailleur gears came close.
- my 650B x 44 tyred bike with 5-speed hub gears in wet conditions (least maintenance). Another old Moulton, setup with 5-speed hub gears came close.
- my mountain bike with studded tyres in icy conditions (safest).

The mountain bike with off-road tyres was very slow on my standard route, but the most suitable bike when trying "short cuts" on tracks and paths in dry weather. The 650B x 44 tyred bike with 5-speed hub gears was better for short cuts in wet weather and in winter, not so stable on mud but much easier to keep clean.

If I had to take a load  (computer, monitor or other stuff) I used one of the bikes capable of carrying the object concerned. This was often one of my Bromptons or Moultons.

If I knew I had to stop off somewhere (shopping, appointment, visiting, etc.) I would generally take either the 650B x 44 tyred bike with 5-speed hub gears (low theft attraction and very old) or one of my Bromptons (fold it and take it in with me).


PH

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Re: Bike weight: What's "too heavy" for a daily rider?
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2022, 11:06:06 PM »
My Surly Ogre has been my daily ride for the last two and a half years:
Ogre by Paul, on Flickr

Originally built up as a Deliveroo bike, and used as that for 18 months before I went electric.  Surly describe this as a "Steel utility Vehicle"  and a "versatile All-season Commuter". My build comes in at around 16.8kg* and I don't think there's much I can shave off without compromise. I've never once in the 14,000 km I've sat on it, thought it was too heavy. There's also those who use this model for crossing the least inhabited parts of our planet, it's a firm favorite over on Bikepacking.com.
I wouldn't disagree with either Surlys description or the Bikepackers who rate it, but I'm not the expedition type and the non electric utility cycling I do, can be done on whatever bike is nearest the door, so it will shortly be leaving the stable, though it took me a while to reach that decision.

*Ready to ride but not including any bottles, tools or luggage.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2022, 11:12:35 PM by PH »

CycleTourer

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Re: Bike weight: What's "too heavy" for a daily rider?
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2022, 09:20:49 AM »
You could shave some weight off that Surly Ogre by using a lighter fork for daily use, and switch it out with the original bikepacking fork for touring.

PH

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Re: Bike weight: What's "too heavy" for a daily rider?
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2022, 11:29:49 AM »
You could shave some weight off that Surly Ogre by using a lighter fork for daily use, and switch it out with the original bikepacking fork for touring.
The point I was making was that I don't find the weight to be in any way detrimental to it's use as a daily bike.  The only time I might prefer a lighter bike is when having to carry it up and down the stairs.
But this is opinion, as pointed out it agrees with the designers, but there's no reason anyone else should agree. So lets say someone was looking to lighten it.
What fork do you suggest and how much weight would that save?
No carbon suggestions please, I'd be happy to ride one, but wouldn't subject it to the abuse a daily ride might endure, trains, bike racks, etc...
As a starting point, an uncut Ogre fork weighs 1.4kg and I've chopped about 100g off mine, it's also a long fork at 447mm A to C,

CycleTourer

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Re: Bike weight: What's "too heavy" for a daily rider?
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2022, 01:05:49 PM »
My first thought was a Surly Straggler fork that would shave over 200 grams off, but it looks like the offsets are slightly different (43 mm versus 44). There must be a similar option.

Also, is that a Tubus Cosmo rack? The Tubus Liviano rack has a nearly identical design and strength to the Cosmo but, being made of titanium, is a couple of hundred grams lighter.

Finally, switching from a square-taper BB to Hollowtech II would shave another couple of hundred grams off.

So it looks straightforward – albeit expensive – to reduce the weight of that bike by over half a kilo without compromising reliability. Of course, if you are happy with it the way it is, that’s fine, I’m just enjoying this Gedankenexperiment.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2022, 01:30:45 PM by CycleTourer »

martinf

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Re: Bike weight: What's "too heavy" for a daily rider?
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2022, 01:54:58 PM »
The point I was making was that I don't find the weight to be in any way detrimental to it's use as a daily bike.  The only time I might prefer a lighter bike is when having to carry it up and down the stairs.

For daily use, bike weight isn't generally one of the important variables for me.

It is relatively insignificant compared to the rider weight and the luggage I often carry.

It becomes a tad more important on long tours in mountainous areas, but even then I don't worry too much about a few Kg difference. Reliability, ease of maintenance and sufficient gear range to comfortably climb long, steep hills are more important for me.

Where I do care about weight is on the lighter of my two Bromptons. I often carry this for significant distances (inside buildings, onto a ferry, etc.), so knocking a few hundred grams off the weight is noticeable.

On my "heavy" Brompton, which has a Rohloff hub, the weight isn't so important because I use this mainly for train-assisted touring, where it is usually possible to wheel the unfolded bike around stations and fold just before boarding the train. On most of the rolling stock in my area I can then wheel the folded bike into the train on it's rollers, so virtually no carrying is involved.

PH

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Re: Bike weight: What's "too heavy" for a daily rider?
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2022, 02:25:56 PM »
So it looks straightforward – albeit expensive – to reduce the weight of that bike by over half a kilo without compromising reliability. Of course, if you are happy with it the way it is, that’s fine, I’m just enjoying this Gedankenexperiment.
The straggler fork is 50mm shorter, which would make interesting handling  :o
The rack it a titanium Tubus Titan
The IRD ST BB has seven years left to run on it's ten year warranty, if you can find a Hollowtech with the same I'll concede that 200g, otherwise I'll consider it a compromise  :D

But apart from a fun exercise, what's the point? The basic calculations about the effect weight and other factors can play is pretty straightforward, not precise, but well enough understood to give a good impression.  Shaving an impossible 2kg off the Ogre would save a massive 90 seconds over 30km. In the context of your original point about someone using a heavy bike for a London (= flat) commute, what was to be gained from not using it?

We do go round and round on this one, I've played the bike lightening game, there'll be a thread on it somewhere, it's fun but it needs putting in some perspective.  The Ogre rear wheel and tyre are the same weight as the frame, which is about the same as the Nomad.  All steel touring bikes will come in within a few % of each other if built up in the same way, regardless of the frame.
From any given manufacturer, there's likely to be more difference between sizes of the same model (Smallest vs largest) than between different models in the same size.
Some struggle to get their head round this, but there's plenty of reasons a lighter frame may be preferable that have little to do with the weight itself but more the way it effects the ride, as the Nomad 700c brochure points out;
Quote
The Nomad Mk3 AB 700c Special actually weighs less than a Mercury 700c set up to carry the same payload.
(To carry 24kg a Mercury would need to be equipped with the Thorn Standard fork and lo-loaders.) But note: when carrying
very light loads, a Mercury with identical 853 fork, wheels, tyres and Airy carrier would feel more lively.
(My bold) I'm a big fan of that "More lively" but if I'm using a Mercury and stop off to do the veg shop on the way home from work that pleasure become a liability.

« Last Edit: July 23, 2022, 02:47:45 PM by PH »

Danneaux

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Re: Bike weight: What's "too heavy" for a daily rider?
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2022, 06:03:47 PM »
Paul, in my opinion, no truer words were ever written about bicycle weight.

You nicely pointed out what so, so many riders and those in the industry overlook.

I've found the same myself. Most of my bikes may vary only a little between each other in weight (not counting a comparison between the extremes...bare Tange Champion No1 'guardless, rackless 10.43kg road bike vs the fully kitted-out Nomad at 20kg). Between all my 700C-wheeled tourers of whatever variety/purpose, the difference is that roughly half-kilo between 15kg and 15.6kg in their regular as-ridden states. All have racks of some sort but vary in how many. All have mudguards, lighting, frame-fit pumps, underseat tool bags, heavy Brook saddles and multiple bottles in cages. All that "stuff" is suited for the kinds of riding I like to do and so the bikes end up looking much alike to the casual eye.

As for what makes me choose a particular bike for a ride, beyond purpose it is the feel I go for and that's due to so much more than weight...tire size/volume/construction, frame geometry (particularly trail measurement for me) and mounted accessories. Oh, yeah -- and water, the single biggest variable for me. There's a huge difference between packing 1liter/kilogram of the wet stuff and 5-6.5 and it takes awhile to actually lose while underway, either through sweat or ehm, other means.

Where I really do notice the difference in weight is while climbing, but still nothing in the bike makes as much difference for me as some full/empty bottles.

Best, Dan.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2022, 06:05:56 PM by Danneaux »

PH

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Re: Bike weight: What's "too heavy" for a daily rider?
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2022, 06:25:34 PM »
I forgot to add  this link in an earlier post, if you haven't come across it before (You probably have it's been around a long time) it's worth a play with.
http://bikecalculator.com/