Rear Luggage - what capacity (novice questions)

[navrig]

I am preparing for my first tour and have decided I am taking the traditional route of a rear rack with panniers and maybe a rack pack.  I'll also have a bar bag.

I don't intend to camp (back is a bit iffy when sleeping on the ground even with a mat) so I reckon I won't need front panniers.

My main plan is along EuroVelo 8 (Spain to Athens) so I expect Med weather.  Hostels, B&B, Pensione, Warmshowers are likely to be the accommodation.

I will be doing some shorter tours in Scotland before hitting Europe.

There seems to be quite a range in pannier capacity and I am struggling to work out what size to go for.  I am looking at the Ortlieb range.

So I assume I'll be taking cycle clothes, off the bike clothes, sandals, some tech, toiletries.  Food and drink will be bought enroute.

What size of Ortlieb panniers would suit?

Would I be better with slightly larger panniers and no rack bag or the other way round?

[in4]

Lots of choice re panniers. Ortlieb, Carradice etc. There’s some really large capacity ones too. For convenience I use Carradice Super Cs together with a rack pack.

[Moronic]

In Ortliebs the back rollers, packers, etc don't weigh much more than the smaller sport models in the same style. And both need the same rack.

So the weight-efficient choice would be the two bigger bags. And that would also give you bigger shapes, which may give you more scope to balance weights and carry awkward objects.

In theory having two smaller bags and a rack pack allows you to put your overnight stuff in the panniers and save the rack pack for things that you might need more often. In practice you might not have enough space to be so choosy - as I discovered on a recent trip. The small Ortliebs don't hold much.

[navrig]

Thanks Moronic.  That helps a lot.  Good thread.

I think I will buy the large Ortliebs and have a trial pack well before going.  If I can't get everything in then I will look at a rack pack.

[PH]

It is a hard question, we can only answer what we'd choose.  Ortliebs are quite a big investment and then last decades, I can't remember when I bought mine, I have a photo of using them on a tour in 2007 and think I'd already had them a couple of years, they're still in daily use and look in decent condition.  These are the heavier classic style, I'm a bit dubious about the lighter material used for the Plus versions, though have no experience.
If I'm touring for more than a few days I'll be camping and for shorter trips a saddle bag suits me fine.  I have done the full goldilocks routine, Too much>Too little>Just right and even then it's still under constant revision.  Even camping I find two smaller Ortlieg panniers (30L) a bar bag and a saddlebag (9L) is sufficient, I subscribe to Moronic's theory, which works for me in practice, the saddlebag and bar bag contain what I'd be carrying on a long day ride, with some capacity left for shopping. I rarely have need to open the panniers from one end of the ride to the other.

In theory having two smaller bags and a rack pack allows you to put your overnight stuff in the panniers and save the rack pack for things that you might need more often.

That just leaves the panniers, one is entirely camping kit (Not including the tent which is outside), leaving everything else is in one (15L) pannier. I'm fine with that, though it doesn't include extra footwear (I use flat pedals so don't need special cycling shoes), I'll also choose cycling kit that doesn't look too out of place off the bike, and I have no need for passed shorts so don't have that bulk.  Summer cycling in warm climates allows you to wash kit in the evening and wear it the next day, I can do that camping so it'll be easier staying in accommodation.
But this is no help to you! You may find daily laundry a chore, like plenty of cycling kit, dress for dinner... There's no right and wrong, the only advice I have is that you're unlikely to get it right first time.  Panniers are just bags that fit on a bike, Ortliebs or Aldi, they're not going to make or break a trip, I'd be tempted to buy cheap big ones, maybe secondhand and use a bit of trial and error, to see what works for you. 
Well, one other bit of advice, get a neutral colour, you may find over the life of a pair of Ortliebs they'll be on several bike, you don't want them clashing!

EDIT - A not very good photo to illustrate the above points.  The last longer non camping trip I did, 2004, half way through an 1,100 mile, 11 day E2E.
My bike on the left, an under saddle tool bag, bar bag and a pair of Orlieb panniers that have been cut down to about 22L the pair (To fit a small wheeled bike) My companions bike on the right, same bar bag and similar saddle bag, plus huge 45L panniers, crammed full. 
It was a source of amusement to us both how much/little the other was carrying, but neither of us would have made any significant changes were we to do it again.

Falstone by Paul, on Flickr
 

[mickeg]

If you are never carrying a tent, sleeping bag, sleeping mat or cooking gear, your volume needs are pretty small.

I like a handlebar bag up front, it is on a quick release bracket so I can take it in restaurants and stores easily.  It has my valuables and other things I may want frequently (sun screen, chain lube, camera, maybe some snack stuff).  The one I use is no longer sold, so I would not recommend it. A lot of people like the Ortlieb handlebar bag.  I have never used the Ortlieb handlebar bag, but I have no reason to not recommend it other than lack of personal knowledge.

Rear panniers, I have the Ortlieb Backrollers.  I also have other panniers, but you have already chosen that brand so I will skip discussing the others.  But Ortlieb makes some others that have a lid that goes over the top.  I like the rolltop bag, thus the Backrollers but some perfer the other type so that is something to contemplate.

Backrollers are 40 liter volume for the pair.  Some people travel with the 25 liter version (Frontrollers), but I would suggest the 40 as you can always travel with a less than a full bag.

Ortlieb makes a 31 liter rackpack that goes on top of the rear panniers.  I think that is bigger than you would want, but I mention it anyway, it is designed so that the strap clips easily to the Backrollers straps, but it is a bit sloppy if it is half empty.  I would suggest you do not get this, at least not initially but I wanted you to be aware of it in case you later decide you have that much volume.  First photo shows the 31 liter Rackpack on top of the 40 liter Backrollers.

A separate non-cycling drybag that is common at most camping or kayak (canoe) shops is something that can be folded up and shoved inside a pannier if you do not have anything to put in it.  Or you can strap it on top if you have overflow.  That is what I would recommend, probably something in the 12 to 18 maximum liter volume liter range.  Second photo shows a non-cycling drybag on top of my rear rack and Backrollers, held on with an elastic net.  Third photo, same bike but at this point we had eaten enough food that my only bag on top of the rear rack was a tent pole bag.  (I have several bikes, thus these photos are on a different bike.)

Ortliebs are adjustable for position fore and aft.  You want them as far forward as you can mount them on the rack, but you need room for your feet as you pedal so you can avoid heel strike.  So, put them as far foreword as you can while avoiding heel strikes.

You did not ask on racks, but I will comment that I like racks that hold the panniers a little lower.  Fourth photo shows my Tubus Logo EVO rack that has a lower bar to put the pannier on.  This lowers the center of gravity a bit and makes your rear luggage a bit lower on the bike.  My ortliebs are over a decade old, I think the hardware has changed in design since then.

Racktime also makes an Addit rack that has that lower bar.  My first and fourth photos have the Tubus Logo EVO, the second and third photos use the Racktime Addit rack.

And several other rack manufacturers have that lower bar too.

I suggest you get fenders (mudguards) on your bike, my first and last photos did not include those because those photos were taken on a trip where I flew with my bike and the fenders would have been difficult to bring on the airplane, but I usually tour with fenders.

[steve216c]

Ultimately it is always down to what you need to carry. I have a pair of Ortlieb classic panniers 20L each (sold as 40L pair). I use mine mostly for daily commute, and almost exclusively just a single bag on the rear. I've had a few lesser bags over the years too. The Ortlieb carrier clip system is the most durable quick release I have used. With one bag my daily companion on almost 14,000km already, typically loaded with a spare tube, a spare 500ml filled water bottle (for days I forget to take the proper bike bottle), puncture repair kit and multitool set, it is never less than a couple of kg before I fill it for my daily needs. Typically my work change of clothes, my lunch and often waterproof overshoes and trousers should it be dry when I set off, but with a chance of rain. Most days my bag is 80% full (level with rack) with up to 8-10kg all told.

You are talking about touring, where you will want more than one change of clothes. My suggesting is to be as minimal as you can. If you ride with cleats and need spare shoes, that is half a bag of space already taken up. If you expect to park up to shop or sight see that you will need to secure your bags or bring them with you. The more and heavier you pack, the tougher that job becomes.

I would think it is possible to travel with a pair of Orlieb classics if you are not carrying a tent. But plan to purchase provisions on the way to keep the weight of the bags down. I've read of world travelers who started off with everything and the kitchen sink with the kit who eventually just rotated 3-4 lightweight sets of clothes over several days, layering up if cold to save bringing additional warm clothes.

A key point in choosing a bag is how waterproof it is. My Ortliebs have kept the contents dry in torrential rain. I have colleagues who swear the same with similar price Vaude bags. I have seen the latest generation of lighter Ortlieb bags. The fabric seems to me to be much lighter duty and less durable looking, but this might be just my impression from the optics. I have no experience of using them to compare with my bags.

Another point- I chose black. With hindsight, I might have chosen a brighter colour just to be more visible to other road users. There are large reflective elements on the black bags too, but a bright colour draws more attention when riding in daylight.

Finally, some bags have option for inner divisions. Most of the time I am happy for one cavernous hole of a bag. But there are times it would be nice to have different things in different internal pockets to make it easy to find things that might otherwise slip to the bottom of the bag (like your keys!) and be a pain to retrieve when you need them. I repurposed a cloth sunglasses bag on a string and an old nylon rain poncho pouch to which I tied to the top clips of my back so I can keep my wallet, keys and sunglasses in easy reach at top of bag. But purpose build divider sections would be more elegant for sure if such a Heath-Robinson solution is not your thing.

What I bought during lockdown 2nd hand was an articulated 2 wheeled low bike trailer with an 80L waterproof bag that can fit for touring. I have not toured with it, but I have used it for carrying approx 40kg of shopping, and it rides nicely even loaded with tins and bottles. It makes for easier going than a couple of heavy panniers with half that weight and might be perfect for longer tours where you might need to carry all your provisions and travel tools for a few days away from home comforts and convenience.

[mickeg]

A couple additional quick notes:

Ortlieb has the City version that is a bit cheaper and a bit lighter.  Mine are the regular ones.  The City version has less straps, a friend of mine has that version and he is happy with them, I prefer the regular ones.  The RackPack that I mentioned before, that does not strap onto the City version.

They are waterproof and nearly airproof, do not put damp clothing in them in the morning on a hot day when you are going to ride all day.  If I have damp clothing, I strap that on the outside where it is less likely to go anaerobic and start an biological experiment.

[navrig]

So it looks like the Ortlieb 40l pair are the bags to aim for.

Waterproof will be good/needed for Scotland (on a just in case basis of course 

I am an engineer and generally a shorts and t-shirt guy so spare clothing goes into the engineer needs category - clothes keep me warm and stop the dangly bits being seen in public.  On that basis it will be minimal.  I'll carry 2-3 sets of cycling gear (bibs and jersey and socks).  I'll take one long sleeve merino jersey which can double as a cold day cycle jersey and a fleece off the bike.  Spare shoes will be off road sandals and I'll use SPD pedals/shoes.

I like the idea of just carrying a dry bag ad some straps for the top rack.  The bar bag will carry the valuables/necessities for regular/frequent access.

The new bike comes with mud guards and a Torteq Expedition rear rack.  I am not fitting a front rack at the moment.

I've gone for Ritchey Ergomax bars but am now wondering if they will suit a bar bag fitting system.

https://road.cc/content/review/255847-ritchey-comp-ergomax-handlebar

[navrig]

And many, many thanks for all the great advice.  Very much appreciated.

[JohnR]

Carradice is another baggage brand to consider. Spa Cycles has a good range although some items are out of stock at the moment https://spacycles.co.uk/m5b0s74p0/Bags-and-Luggage/Pannier-Bags. I bought this cheap bar bag https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B08F5887XD a couple of months ago but I haven't had a need to test it yet. It's about 25cm long so should fit where space prevents a bigger bag. A top tube bag and/or a frame bag are other ways to carry smaller items to avoid them disappearing to the bottom of a pannier.

[mickeg]

I like the concept of the Thorn accessory bar or a second stem with a stub of handlebar tubing to put the handlebar bag bracket lower than the handlebar.  For the Thorn accessory bar, I use the 55mm one with drop bars.
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/accessories/thorn-accessory-bar-t-shaped-55-mm-extension-222-mm-0-deg/

For those to work, you need enough steerer tube for both your regular stem and the accessory bar or second stem.

First photo, my road bike with the Thorn accessory bar.

Second photo, my rando bike with a second stem.

Third photo, I used an adjustable stem on my light touring titanium bike.  This photo also shows my "parking brake", an elastic on the brake lever.

So, if you plan something like this, make sure that the bike manufacturer does not cut the steerer tube too short.  It can always be cut shorter, but you can't cut it longer.

It might be a good idea to tell them to leave it a couple inches (~~ 5cm) extra long after you have already added your second stem in case you decide as you get older that you want the bars a bit higher.

My road bike came with the stem down low and only 50mm of spacers, but with a 35 degree angle stem I could get the bars up where I wanted them.

***

I usually bring two shirts for off bike use, two pairs of pants (which may include one pair of shorts instead), two sets of bike clothes, but four days of socks and four days of underwear because in rainy weather you might not have a chance to dry your laundry.

I use pedals with SPD on one side, platform on the other.  There have been several times when I did not want to wear my bike shoes on the bike, for example if the bike shoes were soaked from too many rainy days, etc.  With those pedals I could use my off-bike shoes on the bike too.

If you are never camping, not sure if you would ever need a drain stopper.  Campgrounds often do not have a drain stopper if you do sink laundry.  I bring my own flat silicone stopper.

A down vest collapses down to nothing but is quite warm, especially under a jacket.  I keep a thin stocking cap in a vest pocket so I remember where I put it.  I almost never wear the vest when on the bike, but my vest is bright yellow for visibility in case I want to wear it on the bike on a cold morning.  And a neck gaiter can come in handy too.