Rusting Raven Tour Frame - metallic Blue

[Shackleton]

Hello!

I'm currently cycling around the world with my Raven tour. It's metallic blue which seems like a weak paint job. Lots of scuffs and I've been touching up as I go with paint and clear nail varnish after sanding down. The rust still seems to come through. How bad for the frame is it to leave these marks until I can get it resprayed in 6 months time? Assuming the frame will last ok with a bit of superficial rust??

Thanks!

Thomas

[mickeg]

My Bridgestone was stored outside for over 10 years before I bought it.  I spent a few days taking it apart, applying a rust protective to the insides of the tubes and rebuilding the entire bike.  It is now my errand bike and I still store it outside.

I did not do anything on the exterior rust.  The bike had good paint, but there are lots of places where rust has been accumulating for over a decade and possibly over two dedaces.  The stem and handlebars used to be painted steel and now are rusted steel.

My point is that if good steel was used, an extra half year of surface rust should not be of any significant concern.  I however should note that I live far from ocean salts and I do not use the Bridgestone in winter when there is road salt used to treat ice.  I also can't say how the steel tubing in my Bridgestone compares to the Raven.

The photos are when I first bought it, the frame after I disssembled everything, after I fixed it up, and how it is stored in winter.  I think these photos make my point.

That said, I have seen some photos of older Thorns on this forum where rust has eaten through the tubing but I do not know if that is unique to a class of frames, such as perhaps the older hand made frames or not.

[Bill C]

sanding rust won't kill rust, use a proper rust killer then paint it with your choice of finish, if you plan on respraying i'd use some phosphoric acid and either zinc rich or red oxide paint, that would tide you over a few months,
can't work out why people spend so much time coddling their hoff hubs while letting their frames rust away

 my xtc
 before phosphoric acid


after phosphoric acid and some clear lacquer

[JimK]

I've got a bit of rust on my frame and also my front rack. Studying up a bit to try to do the job right, this looks informative:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/paint-prep.html

[il padrone]

My old frame (now ridden by my son) has scrapes on the tubing that are about 17 years old - with just a light patina of rust on the surface. No great concern.

It really does depend on what variety of steel the frame is made of, how it is stored, and whether the rust is surface corrosion from scratches, or rust developing under the paint. CroMo steel is very resistant to rust spreading - it has half the percentage of chrome in it as stainless steel has. Mild steel is a poor performer.

Our bikes (CroMo) live outside, but always under cover, except when on tour when they may be out in the rain. Salt air will be a real killer, as will salted roads (a thing we do not have here).

Rust under the paint is usually a result of poor frame prep before painting. One friend of mine did have a great problem with rust developing under the paint around the head-tube. He claimed that he sweated a lot and this had resulted in the corrosion - maybe  Paint is actually porous to many liquids and salts, but again, it will depend on the underlying steel's properties.

[mickeg]

...

That is a very sharp looking bike.  Do people mistake it for Titanium?

[JimK]

Studying up on rust elimination, I am reading about brass wool vs. steel wool. I found this down the street - maybe it'll work like brass wool...

http://www.homedepot.com/p/3M-4-3-8-in-x-11-in-Coarse-Grit-Metal-Hand-Finishing-Pad-7414NA-CC/100179600

[Shackleton]

Awesome replies thanks everyone. We've actually found a place in Cheng Du northern China that may re-spray for us before we reach Mongolia, speaking with them now. They've said they will use an automotive paint, should this be ok? And presuming we will have to stipulate a non rust sealer to go on before the paint and after they've sanded down?? Or would it be worth waiting to get a powder coat done somewhere else??

It's been a bit of a mare having to keep touching it up on the road as we're horsing the bikes through mountains and throwing them on busses so scratches happen often. Interestingly though my partner has a nomad with a Matt black paint job which never seems to scuff, much tougher!

[Bill C]

Mickeg it did get quite a few comments when i first did it but it now needs redoing , didn't have a spray set up back then so it was done with rattle cans, i said at the time if i can get a couple of years out of it i'd be happy

Studying up on rust elimination, I am reading about brass wool vs. steel wool. I found this down the street - maybe it'll work like brass wool...

http://www.homedepot.com/p/3M-4-3-8-in-x-11-in-Coarse-Grit-Metal-Hand-Finishing-Pad-7414NA-CC/100179600

Jim i didn't use any wet n dry or wire wool on the xtc just some phosphoric acid and some nylon pan scourers, let the acid do the work and just scrub any stubborn bits with a pan scourer, but i was treating a bare frame, if there's paint then wet n dry it back to bare metal keeping the area as small as you can but exposing all the rust

on the site you linked to i'd buy some wetndry 400 http://www.homedepot.com/p/3M-3-2-3-in-x-9-in-Imperial-Wetordry-400-Grit-Silicon-Carbide-Sandpaper-10-Sheets-Pack-5920-18-CC/202563279 as you have paint on your parts clean up the worst of the rust with that then use something like http://www.homedepot.com/p/Klean-Strip-1-gal-Phosphoric-Prep-and-Etch-GKPA30220/100406369 don't know if you can get smaller acid packs but $15 isn't the end of the world and you can use it for more than just killing rust, you clean your bog, clean bricks or concrete it can even brighten up old brass
i use hydroponic ph down as it's food grade (make sure is phosphoric acid, some aren't), usually stronger at around 85% and is normally cheaper (well over here, $15 for a us gallon, what ever that is, sounds very reasonable)
Dans your side of the pond and said he uses "ortho" , he'll point you at it if it's better than the one i said from home depot

if your worried about using acid on your bike just find an old spanner or rusty tool    and clean that first as a test, it isn't strong enough to eat good steel but rust just dissolves away, might take a bit of scrubbing but it will go

shackleton
your call on a respray auto paint means nothing as there are so many types,
 i'd just try n keep up with the chips until you can get it stripped and powdercoated somewhere with a good rep, the frame won't rust out overnight you want to make sure it doesn't get past surface rust though as filling pitted steel is a pain in the butt, you fill one load of pits only to see the ones you missed grinning back at you, miss any and they will be staring you in the face once the topcoat go's on,
i know as i'm filling a Thorn with a bit of pitting at the moment, minor pitting major pain 

this one sold so if yours get's as bad just ebay it  as someone out there likes a challenge
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Thorn-EXP-World-Touring-Bicycle-Frame-and-Forks-/291781077002?hash=item43ef81e80a%3Ag%3AC%7EoAAOSwMNxXULOH&nma=true&si=7nsZp4a3KmWClHqDeplVl%252FkeeqY%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

[Danneaux]

Dans your side of the pond and said he uses "ortho" , he'll point you at it if it's better than the one i said from home depot

"Ospho". Ortho makes lawn fertilizer here. http://www.ospho.com/

John Saxby has mentioned Evapo-Rust ( https://www.amazon.com/Evapo-Rust-ER004-Super-Safe-Remover/dp/B00GRSOJSS?ie=UTF8&*Version*=1&*entries*=0 ). I have found it works well, but more as a dip/soak. If you need to use it on small areas of a frame, it is best to construct a sort of damp to contain it. I have used children's modeling clay (Play-Doh) successfully to contain it 'round small areas.

Best,

Dan.

[mickeg]

Awesome replies thanks everyone. We've actually found a place in Cheng Du northern China that may re-spray for us before we reach Mongolia, speaking with them now. They've said they will use an automotive paint, should this be ok? And presuming we will have to stipulate a non rust sealer to go on before the paint and after they've sanded down?? Or would it be worth waiting to get a powder coat done somewhere else??

It's been a bit of a mare having to keep touching it up on the road as we're horsing the bikes through mountains and throwing them on busses so scratches happen often. Interestingly though my partner has a nomad with a Matt black paint job which never seems to scuff, much tougher!

There would be nothing wrong with automotive paint, but you might want to get it re-done when you get home again anyway depending on how well the auto paint holds up.  So, it might be a stop gap measure, not permanent solution.

Would they just add paint over the nicks and scrapes, or do something to remove the old paint first?  Would you have to worry about the headset cups if they tried to dip the frame in a paint remover?  Or the headset race at the fork crown?

If it was me deciding what to do, I would put convenience at the top of the priority list.  Is it worth the time of stripping all the parts off the frame, having it painted, waiting for the paint to harden (or cure or whatever paint does) and putting it all together again.  My second highest priority would be to make sure it does not look too nice to a potential thief.

If you re-do it, you are fortunate in one aspect - being a Raven the bottom bracket is in an eccentric that is easily removed.  A derailleur bike would mean that you need the tools to remove a bottom bracket but you only need to worry about getting a crank arm off.  Thus stripping the parts off may be time consuming, but might not take too much work with tools beyond a few allen wrenches.  You might need an M5 tap to clean threads out to reinstall all the bolts on the frame.  And you may need new cables if they are difficult to get out and re-threaded back in.  If they can mask the holes for the eccentric bolts, that could can prevent paint from getting into the threads, that could help a lot.  Since the eccentric bolts have very fine threads, if much paint accumulated on the threads, getting that cleaned out could be a hassle.  The brake fittings on the frame, not sure what is best but I suspect masking that off to prevent the paint from getting on the brake bosses would be necessary.

And keep the paint off the steerer tube and the fork bearing race on the fork.  Not sure what you would do with the headset, just masking that off should work if they spray it.  I have used spray cans to paint an old frame, I just masked off the headset and chromed lug work and head badge with tape.

My Sherpa is matt black, the paint is very resistant to scrapes and nicks.  My Nomad yellow paint is also very good and holds up very well, but there is a clear coat over my yellow that did not adhere well and is slowing coming off.

If you get a glossy paint consider a clear coat over it to improve durability - but that could cost more time.

[JimK]

Thanks for the rust removal tips! I just have a few small spots so I don't plan a big operation... assuming the rust hasn't spread underneath the paint!

This is what I was planning to use as the phosphoric acid: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Loctite-16-fl-oz-Naval-Jelly-Rust-Dissolver-Bottle-553472/203009241

Should I be switching to that Klean-Strip or is it all pretty much the same?

[Bill C]

Should I be switching to that Klean-Strip or is it all pretty much the same?

Jim either the klean-strip (prep&etch) or the naval jelly will do fine, H3PO4 is H3PO4
practice on something besides your bike before you go straight at it, quick go on a rusty bit of lawnmower or something else less important first as a trial run, make sure your happy that you can do a tidy job
if you keep up with any chips it should just be a matter of dabbing a tiny bit on leave for a few minutes then wipe off and paint over the fresh  derusted surface,
it's almost worth buying an extra nail varnish bottle washing it out with some thinners/nail varnish remover and keeping a dribble of naval jelly/phosphoric with the bottle of touch up paint,

[Shackleton]

Awesome replies thanks everyone. We've actually found a place in Cheng Du northern China that may re-spray for us before we reach Mongolia, speaking with them now. They've said they will use an automotive paint, should this be ok? And presuming we will have to stipulate a non rust sealer to go on before the paint and after they've sanded down?? Or would it be worth waiting to get a powder coat done somewhere else??

It's been a bit of a mare having to keep touching it up on the road as we're horsing the bikes through mountains and throwing them on busses so scratches happen often. Interestingly though my partner has a nomad with a Matt black paint job which never seems to scuff, much tougher!

There would be nothing wrong with automotive paint, but you might want to get it re-done when you get home again anyway depending on how well the auto paint holds up.  So, it might be a stop gap measure, not permanent solution.

Would they just add paint over the nicks and scrapes, or do something to remove the old paint first?  Would you have to worry about the headset cups if they tried to dip the frame in a paint remover?  Or the headset race at the fork crown?

If it was me deciding what to do, I would put convenience at the top of the priority list.  Is it worth the time of stripping all the parts off the frame, having it painted, waiting for the paint to harden (or cure or whatever paint does) and putting it all together again.  My second highest priority would be to make sure it does not look too nice to a potential thief.

If you re-do it, you are fortunate in one aspect - being a Raven the bottom bracket is in an eccentric that is easily removed.  A derailleur bike would mean that you need the tools to remove a bottom bracket but you only need to worry about getting a crank arm off.  Thus stripping the parts off may be time consuming, but might not take too much work with tools beyond a few allen wrenches.  You might need an M5 tap to clean threads out to reinstall all the bolts on the frame.  And you may need new cables if they are difficult to get out and re-threaded back in.  If they can mask the holes for the eccentric bolts, that could can prevent paint from getting into the threads, that could help a lot.  Since the eccentric bolts have very fine threads, if much paint accumulated on the threads, getting that cleaned out could be a hassle.  The brake fittings on the frame, not sure what is best but I suspect masking that off to prevent the paint from getting on the brake bosses would be necessary.

And keep the paint off the steerer tube and the fork bearing race on the fork.  Not sure what you would do with the headset, just masking that off should work if they spray it.  I have used spray cans to paint an old frame, I just masked off the headset and chromed lug work and head badge with tape.

My Sherpa is matt black, the paint is very resistant to scrapes and nicks.  My Nomad yellow paint is also very good and holds up very well, but there is a clear coat over my yellow that did not adhere well and is slowing coming off.

If you get a glossy paint consider a clear coat over it to improve durability - but that could cost more time.

Thinking about it further it does make the bike look less appealing having it bashed and bruised! Automotive paint feels like a compromise so I may wait till we get to Japan or NZ for a proper job. Thanks for your reply/advice