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Non-Thorn Related / Re: Hypnic Jerks
« Last post by Andre Jute on Today at 12:14:37 AM »
I gave up worrying about health effects when I reached thirty. I designed and printed a card to all the doctors who'd said I wouldn't make thirty. Fifty years later I've forgotten when the hypnic jerks started, but I go straight back to sleep -- see below about my method of ensuring that I go back to sleep almost immediately. I don't know if hypnic jerks are linked to coffee or tea, but I drink a four-cup pot of tea with half a lemon or lime plus honey every day, and the same of mokka, a 3:1 mixture of cocoa and one heaped spoon of whatever instant coffee my wife buys at the supermarket.

For all I know the hypnic jerks may just be a result of angling your body horizontally when you go to sleep, rather than vertically. Or, perhaps more likely, they may be caused by hormones secreted in your brain to keep you sane by reminding you dreams are not real: dopamine, oxytocin, serotonin, and endorphins are so much the usual suspects of happiness that they are shorthanded as DOSE. Serotonin in particular has a wide variety of functions in the body as well as the brain, and both a shortage or an excess of serotonin in the body can produce undesirable effects.

One could speculate that vomiting, about which serotonin is known to send  messages to the nerve-ends, is a convulsive effect, rather similar to hypnic jerks, but don't take that as gospel as I haven't kept up with the literature.

I was prescribed amitriptyline for migraines, which are caused by damage to a mandibular nerve suffered during heart surgery when the surgeons had force my mouth open in a hurry. It's a medicine without a well-defined therapeutic map but for me it has always worked for whatever it was prescribed. The point of telling you all this is that, as a side effect of trying to do something about migraines, amitriptyline seems to keep the hypnic jerks at bay.

Or it may just be that my entirely unplanned diet of what I like to eat (chicken, oily fish and shellfish, cheese, avocado, fruit, yoghurt, red meat generally only once a week, mineral supplements to replace sunlight, rough brown rye bread, pasta, salami for a controlled intake of fat) works well to keep the DOSE well-balanced.

Medicine is a lottery...

But I know this stuff because I was taught it. I don't actually worry about the now rare (since I started taking amitriptyline) hypnic jerks, as I think it is far more likely a transient ischemic attack will get me, and I've never heard of a case where someone actually died of a hypnic jerk, which by definition is very brief. Not that I worry about TIA's either, which could start something not quite so "transient". Que sera sera.

If you have trouble going to sleep again after a hypnic jerk, it helps to have something else pre-chosen to focus your mind at the same time as you blank it off to the disturbance. You could mentally calculate the ratios in the Rohloff hub gearbox, for instance, or how many actually meaningful half steps you could get by inserting only one further chainring to the crankset. I try to improve the stress calculations in the chasses of cars I designed and (over-)built, without pencil and paper a near-impossible task never completed because I fall asleep almost immediately I flash up that particular spreadsheet in my mind's eye.

One final point: Your body's state isn't only an output of DOSE and lesser helper chemicals in your body and brain, your mood is also an input to the other regulators. If you make a point of being happy and carefree, the hypnic jerks might just feel so unwelcome, they jerk themselves up, leave you behind, and invade someone else's life.
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AI is not, after all, attempting to present in language the results of its direct experience. All it's doing is offering a summary of published sources. It's not unreasonable to expect an intelligent summary.

It may not be unreasonable to expect an intelligent summary, if you believe the boosters of AI. I don't believe a word Google says, haven't since they tried, in conjunction with a university, no less, to steal around 70 of my books. Anyone who can try to justify that has no morality and shouldn't be in charge of the biases of their human judgements being spread by anything as powerful as AI. Powerful not for truth, but for spreading the immorality of the Google board of directors and its employees. See how many hoops you have to jump through to find on Google the name of the judge who stopped their well-advanced immoral attempt to steal a huge amount of other people's intellectual property. The point here is that, after those of us who knew the facts firsthand die, the Google version will, via their AI, become the irrefutable "truth".

It's been proposed that we'll never see that, because AI isn't attached to a body. There is no way to supply a bot with the intentionality of a human researcher. The bot has no needs or desires.

On the contrary, the bot has all the needs and desires of the human supervisors at Google, and all the control freak "editors" at Wikipedia, the rage of the posters at TikTok, etc. These are prime examples of unbalanced hive-minds all tilting the same way. Those of us who've been paying attention to the decline of the BBC, which once was the greatest news-gathering organization in the entire world, and by far the most powerful spreader of the highest cultural standards, have seen how a political hive-mind destroyed the Beeb's credibility -- in less time than it took to build that credibility, which can never be restored. The problem with AI is that it magnifies errors with such wide dispersion and such speed, that the dikes of shared true knowledge will be destroyed in short order because the lowest common denominator will be driven lower and lower by AI's head-counting, which will at some point become overwhelmingly a count of AI errors, which will be magnified and multiplied again in the next cycle, until there is no way for anybody to determine and be certain of any truth. There's no stopping it by mere humans, short of turning off the electricity for a few generations.

None of this is scaremongering: It's pure Newtonian science, the wheel of knowledge spinning out of control, many small amounts of uncertainty being constantly added by AI, until all knowledge becomes chaotic nonsense, at which point humanity will revert to barbarity, because true knowledge is all our kind's memories together.

One consolation: After degrading humans, the chaos AI manufactured will destroy AI next, because it too depends for its functioning and growth on somewhere there being true knowledge about electricity. (I'll be burning all my copies of the many editions of F. Langford Smith's magisterial book The Radiotron Designer's Handbook, which has a comprehensive introduction to electricity as an opener to a technical treatise on radio and other amplifiers, so that AI can't escape terra firma and spread the rot into the universe. You can see my review of the latest new edition at https://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/JUTE%20ON%20AMPS%20RDH.html)

Here's a test for your favorite AI: give it this post from me and ask for a balanced synopsis. Heh-heh!
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Non-Thorn Related / Re: Hypnic Jerks
« Last post by martinf on June 16, 2026, 01:13:19 PM »
Can 3 or 4 coffees a day be to blame?

I suffer(ed) from bouts of tachycardia. Heart rate suddenly increases, but seems weak, and fluttery. After a certain time, my heart seems to give one or two strong beats, then it goes back to normal. It happened more often when I wasn't getting enough exercise.

The cardiologist I saw when I was about 40 prescribed beta-bloquants and warned that it was dangerous not to take them. I put up with the beta-bloquants for about a week, but didn't like the side effects.

So I tried doing without tea and coffee and not taking the beta-bloquants. After the initial withdrawal symptoms, this has worked very well for me since. Thinking back, I first noticed having tachycardia at about the age of 10. Coincidentally (or not ?) this was about the same age I started drinking tea. From 10 to about 40 I used to drink either tea or coffee at virtually every meal, often in between meals as well.
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PH, when you think about it, it's not unreasonable to think that "artificial intelligence" would be able to read what's been said online on a topic and infer reliability and accuracy from the experience and tone of the posters. Just as human intelligence would.
Did you look at the examples I gave?  How many errors did you spot in the Nomad review?  That was written by a cycling journalist with thirty years experience. 
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Non-Thorn Related / Re: Hypnic Jerks
« Last post by tyreon on June 16, 2026, 08:24:30 AM »
Thanks both for your kind replies. I'm gonna mull over both to try and seek elucidation!

FWIW I believe these...happenings...began after I was prescribed the wonder drug Vioxx(for systemic arthritis)and which was later found out to be a 'poison'. Our American cousins died or received compo for taking this drug,but our own peoples here not a brass razoo. I was already halving my prescribed drug when I found out it was being withdrawn from the market. From this time in until I stopped taking it, my sleep jerks waned until now when and after I do a longish ride(and the ride is not long nor unduly strenuous,believe me!)

What caused me to come here was that the sudden jerk which awakes me is quite unsettling. Read that again! And having had it you are not inclined to go back to rest and sleep. I now dont get it at any other times. Sometimes,somewheres!,you meet a forum or a person who can offer advice or experience of a problem. Your two replies are two worth consideration. Thanks.

Finally,its getting in to see a receptive medical practioner. Then in having some belief in some. With apologies but from personal experience
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PH, when you think about it, it's not unreasonable to think that "artificial intelligence" would be able to read what's been said online on a topic and infer reliability and accuracy from the experience and tone of the posters. Just as human intelligence would.

After all, if you were paying someone to synthesise reviews of the Mercury, you'd not think them conscientious if their report led with a comment made about a very different bicycle that they'd represented as a comment about the Merc.

AI is not, after all, attempting to present in language the results of its direct experience. All it's doing is offering a summary of published sources. It's not unreasonable to expect an intelligent summary.

It's been proposed that we'll never see that, because AI isn't attached to a body. There is no way to supply a bot with the intentionality of a human researcher. The bot has no needs or desires.
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The Mercury has superb steering and almost no one has ridden a 40, to date.

Almost no one?
They've sold hardly any in the year it's been available?
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Non-Thorn Related / Re: Hypnic Jerks
« Last post by brummie on June 15, 2026, 09:26:59 PM »
Hi Tyreon, I have frequent hypnic jerks. Annoying, and have had maybe 4x 24hr ECG monitoring sessions over the last 10 years ( more recently at my request.) My doctors too, are not particularly concerned. Mine usually occur in the evenings after work as I begin to relax - sometimes I can experience 4 or 5 jerks in what maybe a handful of seconds. Dan mentioned Sleep Apnea, which my doctors have always dismissed as they tell me I am not overweight ! - I am not totally convinced by this as a statement, and I do snore occassionally, so I am told. I generally sleep very well, though my Garmin indicates I get very little deep sleep, which is a concern assuming this Garmin technology is accurate? Can 3 or 4 coffees a day be to blame? ( No caffeine after 3pm ) I have a low resting heart   rate usually about 42bpm.  Hope my reply may put you at ease with regards the jerks, they're annoying, but I guess we have to have faith in the ECG scans and doctors expertise.
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Non-Thorn Related / Re: Hypnic Jerks
« Last post by Danneaux on June 15, 2026, 08:52:01 PM »
By any chance, have you ever been tested for sleep apnea?

It is a condition where breathing can start and stop multiple times a night, causing disturbed sleep or sudden wakefulness. There's a couple kinds, obstructive and central.

Migth be worth pursuing this with your doctors as a possible diagnosis. Given what you've written here, I am surprised they didn't mention the possibility.

As far as heart-related concerns, it is common for doctors to prescribe wearing a Holter heart monitor to record any anomalies during the period under study -- including sleep.

Best (and curious!), Dan.



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Non-Thorn Related / Hypnic Jerks
« Last post by tyreon on June 15, 2026, 06:53:18 PM »
Anyone here suffer from this condition after a ride out? I do,now. I'm not a road man but a loper cyclist and whereas I used to put in miles I do so less now because of age and other factors. Still,after some modest miles out now on a folder I return home somewhat fatigued but fit,shower and relax and go to bed. The trouble is as I am sleeping I am suddenly brought awake by what seems my heart stopping so that I am jerked awake. Its a most upsetting condition wherein to rest and sleep again is somewhat....nervewracking?

Sometimes back,some 10 years maybe,when I went to my doctor for some other minor ailments I bought up this uncomfortable ailment not knowing its name. I described it. The doctor was nonplussed about it. I detailed what I have said above and then gave examples wherein cats or dogs can twitch or shudder when sleeping,some waking when their twitches get too violent. He said he didnt know about it and had never seen any animal perform this behaviour! I bit my tounge as any professional can learn,but that earlier still I had had to diagnose a condition I later had confirmed by a specialist.

I just wondered if there are any other cyclists who have experienced this phenomena,and if theres anything anyone would suggest that would help alleviate it happening after a ride. Its pretty unpleasant. AI named the diagnosis. Apologies,but Ive found my two former doctors useless and one near on aggressive. I know there to be doctors and doctors,and many stories behind many.
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