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General Technical / Re: Drop Bars on a "Long" Frame?
« Last post by Andre Jute on Today at 07:22:49 PM »
I built a derailleur bike with drops and definitely feel slightly happier when fighting headwinds. My Rohloff bike has been gathering dust pending a bar conversion. ... another sticking point in the conversion is that I now would also want hydraulic brakes.

The best hydraulic pedal bike brakes, in my opinion of course, are the Magura Rim Hydraulic Brakes, among other reasons because they clamp the largest possible disc, the rim of the wheel, so the discs run pretty cool even in urban rush our traffic.

But the rim hydraulics are fully self-contained from handle through tube to the caliper bodies, oil included, service-free for life (another superb feature); however, you need to be brave to try modifying them, because if you cause a leak, your investment is toast.*

I'm talking here about the HSxx series, of which I have experience of the most junior member, the HS11 deliberately chosen precisely because it provides less clamping force to begin with, and therefore less sudden, more controllable stops while for practical purposes the clamping force is well able to stop even a heavily loaded bike and heavy rider in an amazingly short distance without any of the drama of locked brakes that would accompany the maxed-out brakes the cafe racers brag about.

Unfortunately today the HS11 and the HS33 have the same amount of fluid in them to be compressed (which corresponds roughly to the size of the chamber in the more common type of wheel centre hydraulic brakes) and the only difference between them is that the cheaper -11 has attractive colored trim covers available while the -33 is monocoloured a nasty grey, supposed to look 'professional'. I also vaguely remember different handle lengths at least theoretically available to make fitting on busy handlebars easier.

The last time I looked, because some idiot opined that real bicyclists fit the racing versions, there was an HS22, available to fit drop handlebars, and there was a real racing version above the others which very likely fitted only on drops.

The racing versions come  with progressively smaller chambers and thus higher clamping pressures, at the cost of less nuanced control capability. If you choose the Rim Hydraulics, and have to take a racing version to fit drops, learn to brake with one finger, like the MotoGP racers atop 200bhp machines, approaching a tight hairpin at 230mph.


One more consideration. Though I'm a hard but not harsh braker at the T junctions at the bottom of steep hills, I don't brake often and I'm certainly not a comfort braker. Besides, I ride on general clean tarmac lanes. Despite all that, which you would think should give me impressive rim mileage, with only 11K plus kilometers on the rims, there is visible wear. Either my rims are soft aluminum, or the HS11 Maguras are still too much brakes for my environment and riding style, or Magura's own brake blocks, which do last a long time, are unnecessarily abrasive. Though not all that important to me except for hating waste, for a commuter that could easily become a cost consideration.

*I bought the biggest Service Kit, which is actually a total rebuilding kit, consisting of enough oil, tubing, olives (they fit inside the junctions tube to metal parts), whatever is necessary to fully rebuild one brake, because I knew I would be moving the handlebar up quite a long way even on a 59cm virtual top tube bike I had bought sight unseen, and feared the standard tube wouldn't be long enough, but it turned out to be just long enough, so the kit is unused. Today I wouldn't buy the expensive service/rebuilding kit, I'd just get a competent specialist to supply a new brake set on which he had already extended the tube length.
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General Technical / Re: Drop Bars on a "Long" Frame?
« Last post by Andyb1 on Today at 05:49:32 PM »
No riding position is aero with panniers the size of those in the photos!

The ‘standard’ modern bike packing luggage arrangement has very small or no rear panniers.  Primarily for better side clearance on narrow tracks.   But carrying luggage behind the seat, on top of the racks and in a frame bag must also reduce drag a little.

I know we all try and minimise weight when touring but minimising bulk (and hence drag) may be as important as our riding position.
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General Technical / Re: Drop Bars on a "Long" Frame?
« Last post by mickeg on Today at 12:16:34 PM »
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...   My Rohloff bike has been gathering dust pending a bar conversion....

When that conversion is complete, we need photos and some text on what you like about it.  And whether or not you would do anything different next time.

I am fully content with the brakes that I have.  That said, in rain I sometimes wish that my rim brakes were better than they are.

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General Technical / Re: Drop Bars on a "Long" Frame?
« Last post by mickeg on Today at 12:08:10 PM »
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My understanding is that drop handlebars are required in races for safety reasons (they give a flatter surface for other riders to hit) - if flats were allowed I wonder if riders would change to them?
...

I used to hate drop bars, used the drops maybe 5 percent of the time.

Then I lost about 15 percent of my body weight, most of that was in the middle.  A diagnosis for diabetes gave me the incentive to lose weight.  And after the weight lost I felt much more comfortable leaning further forward.  Now use the drops maybe one third of the time.

Yes, I agree, you want a setup you are comfortable with. In my case what I was most comfortable with changed in part due to weight loss.

I have flat bars on my errand bike.  That is the bike I use for short distances around town.  It is the bike I use most often, but each time I use it, it is only for a few miles.  Thus, I regularly use a bike with flat bars too.  I have no desire to change the bars on that bike, the bars on that bike work great for the purpose of the bike.

A friend of mine that I have done several tours with slowly shifted from drop bars to bars that I think are called bull horns, first photo taken in 2017.  He is my height but weighs about 50 pounds more than I do.

And second photo was taken in 2023, different bike and now he had flat bars with some bar ends that extend forwards.

Third photo, both of our bikes on that 2023 tour, it is easier to see his handlebar setup in that photo. 

My bike in that third photo is my titanium touring bike, that is not a good photo to see my handlebars, so I added a fourth photo that shows my handlebars better on that same trip.

Regarding your comment on racers, from what I have seen on racing bikes, their bars are often narrower than most people want.  I suspect that is to make them slightly more aerodynamic?  I have heard that racers try to even bend their legs slightly inward so their knees are closer to the top tube for aerodynamics.  Thus, I can't possibly imagine that they would switch to flat bars.

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General Technical / Re: Drop Bars on a "Long" Frame?
« Last post by JohnR on Today at 11:45:18 AM »
But I can't imagine trying to pedal into a strong headwind on flat bars on a long tour, thus I really wanted drop bars.  And I am happy with my choice.  I recognize that I am only a few percent more aerodynamic with the drop bars, but in a strong headwind I want every advantage I can get.
A headwind was the trigger for me deciding to change from flat bars to drop bars. I couldn't keep up with a friend who had drop bars and felt that the greater wind resistance provided by flat bars was a factor so I built a derailleur bike with drops and definitely feel slightly happier when fighting headwinds. My Rohloff bike has been gathering dust pending a bar conversion. I got as far as buying a pair of Sram cable brifters which can be modified to work with the Gebla Rohbox. The Hubbub adaptor is another option but another sticking point in the conversion is that I now would also want hydraulic brakes.
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General Technical / Re: Drop Bars on a "Long" Frame?
« Last post by Andyb1 on November 05, 2026, 06:35:06 PM »
We all like different riding positions and it is impossible to really say that flats are ‘better’ or worse than drops - but I personally find that flats have more advantages.

I bought an alloy / carbon bike earlier this year.   About 20 years old, one owner from new, with drops.  He had obviously been happy with the drops but I was not.
- I could not find a comfortable hand position where I was near the brake and gear controls
- when I tried using the brakes from the hoods I could not get a good pull on them, so I would have to then move my hands down the ‘bars in order to brake….not good in an emergency.
- aerodynamics overall did not feel better….except when head down with my hands on the lowest part of the handlebars, where I quickly became uncomfortable.

So I converted it to ‘straight’ bars (Thorn bars that had about a 5 degree sweepback and which were reduced in width and fitted fairly low.  With ego type grips and stubby bar ends.  The stubby bar ends give me a very similar riding position to riding on the hoods of drops but with thumby shifters and flat handlebar brake levers my hands are close to the controls...and the brakes now work much, much better!  Hydraulic brakes on drops may work fine as little hand pressure is needed but the cantis on this bike needed the pull available from flat handlebar levers to make them work.

The previous owner of the bike was not impressed by my conversion but it worked for me.  It made the bike more comfortable, safer to ride and I feel I only lost out a little to the aerodynamics of the drop handlebars when they were used in their lowest position.

My understanding is that drop handlebars are required in races for safety reasons (they give a flatter surface for other riders to hit) - if flats were allowed I wonder if riders would change to them?

So in summary to the OP - if your bike has flat bars set up correctly, you may be best sticking with them!
And there are a lot of different ‘flat’ handlebars to try - I have narrow almost straight bars on this bike, wider almost straight bars on another and Thorn Touring bars with much more sweepback on my Raven.
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General Technical / Re: Drop Bars on a "Long" Frame?
« Last post by mickeg on November 05, 2026, 05:02:43 PM »
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2. Not relevant to the Sherpa but the Rohloff twist shifter on the drop bar conversion was placed on a short Thorn accessory  T-bar fitted to the fork steerer column below the handlebar stem. I feel safer having the Rohloff twist shifter closer to hand on straight bars within easy reach for rapid shifting without having to take my hand off the handlebars.
...

It probably has been a few years since I mentioned on this forum why I have drop bars on my Nomad Mk II.  I am well aware that Thorn feels that the Nomad Mk II would be best with flat bars, that is why they did not sell the Nomad Mk II in an S size.  But I can't imagine trying to pedal into a strong headwind on flat bars on a long tour, thus I really wanted drop bars.  And I am happy with my choice.  I recognize that I am only a few percent more aerodynamic with the drop bars, but in a strong headwind I want every advantage I can get.

I tried placing the Rohloff shifter in several locations, but eventually came to the same conclusion you did.  I use the Hubbub Adapter that puts my shifter on the end of the handlebar.  That way if I am on difficult terrain where I want to have both hands on the handlebar, and also be able to shift, that location is the most logical.  Photo attached.

There have been many times when I was happy I could keep both hands on the handlebar for steering while I was able to simultaneously shift too.

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General Technical / Re: Drop Bars on a "Long" Frame?
« Last post by UKTony on November 05, 2026, 08:24:49 AM »
My size 580L Mk 2 Mercury had a straight bar setup when new. The second owner converted it to drop bar which is how I bought it.  The original Thorn flat track bar and V brake levers were included in  the sale. I’d been accustomed to riding a straight bar Mk2 Nomad for the previous 9 years and wasn’t intending to buy a drop bar version but gave the drop bar setup on the Mercury a trial for a few hundred miles. I eventually decided to emulate the Nomad and convert the Mercury back to straight bar using the Thorn flat track bars and V brake levers included in the sale, mainly because,
1. Even with the 80mm stem (3cm shorter than the stem on the straight bar) I felt rather stretched in the riding position. I’m 5ft 11in but for my height I have an exceptionally long barefoot inside leg measurement (35in (89cm)) so a shorter than normal upper body.
2. Not relevant to the Sherpa but the Rohloff twist shifter on the drop bar conversion was placed on a short Thorn accessory  T-bar fitted to the fork steerer column below the handlebar stem. I feel safer having the Rohloff twist shifter closer to hand on straight bars within easy reach for rapid shifting without having to take my hand off the handlebars.

For information,
the 580L Mercury frame has a 600mm virtual top tube (I could be wrong but I think that’s measured as a horizontal line from centre of head tube/top tube junction to centre of seat tube). The 580S (short top tube) frame has a 575mm virtual top tube.
The drop bar conversion had an 80mm stem and my preferred  straight bar setup uses a 110mm stem.
In my case, if I wanted a drop bar Mercury I’d definitely choose the size 580S for a more comfortable riding position.
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Wanted / Re: Sport Tour frame
« Last post by sweats on November 04, 2026, 11:42:37 AM »
I’m still looking for a 561L Sport Tour frame or possible a complete bike if anyone has one they are considering selling.
Thanks in advance for any info.
Chris
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Non-Thorn Related / 'Court jester in the palace of science' on bicycle stability
« Last post by Andre Jute on November 04, 2026, 07:48:50 AM »
The Washington Post, in its obituary, quoted someone unnamed describing David E H Jones as the ’court jester in the palace of science’. That’s a witty description, but not fair, not exhaustive, not even comprehensive. David Jones did a lot of innovative thinking and writing for which other men took patents and even Nobel Prizes. An example is 3D printing, which Dr Jones laid out in New Scientist in 1974, 11 years before Chuck Hull ‘invented’ the process in 1984.

 He was also a prime practical prankster, the inventor of fake but plausible perpetual motion machines, one of which is in the Technisches Museum Wien (Vienna). On the other hand, I can offhand, without blinking again, name three prominent scientists that I have known who would have given their eye-teeth to have NASA carry their chemical garden into space, as they did for Dr Jones.

But, arguably, Dr Jones’ most important work for the future of the world, was proving that a bicycle with a reversed fork is stable.

That in the process Dr Jones incidentally killed the mistaken belief that some mysterious gyroscopic force was involved in bicycles staying upright, is a bonus but not all that important.

Bad thinking on that subject had already resurrected itself after Francis Whipple of Cambridge University in 1899 proved conclusively in the rigorous mathematics of his algorithm now known as the ‘Whipple Model’ that a riderless bicycle is stable.

And bad gyroscopic claims will resurrect themselves after Jones — probably about now, as fifty to sixty years seems about a Kondratieff Cycle for delusions of gyroscopes. Watch this space.

Here’s the bibliographic entry including a link for the article:
Jones, David E. H. (1970). "The stability of the bicycle" (PDF). Physics Today. 23 (4): 34–40.

The notation resolves to Physics Today, April 1970,  pages 34-40. If the link above doesn’t work for you, here’s the link full out:
https://www.phys.lsu.edu/faculty/gonzalez/Teaching/Phys7221/vol59no9p51_56.pdf

There’s also a YouTube video about Jones and bicycle stability:
https://youtu.be/J5ICTbqKoEI?si=n5cQhf_KXDav0e9n

Here’s Dr Jones' brief biography at Wikipedia, coming with the usual warning about Wikipedia being a lowest common denominator source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_E._H._Jones

Hat tip to Danneaux, the confidant of AI, for the knowledge, the link, and a giggle besides.
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