Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Thorn General => Topic started by: simonsydney on September 07, 2006, 03:40:32 am
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A quick thank you to all who provided advise on my previous posts. My 561L in green with flat bars arrived today. Putting it togethor was easy and enjoyable, and also means I am now more intimate (in a technical knowleadgable way) with my bike, which I think is important.
Unfortunately it is blowing a 60-80km gale here with rain, so I didn't get to go for a long ride, only about 10km. The bike has exceeded my expectations and the rohloff is great.
A question for you guys.
There is very little noise while pedaling, a little back pedal noise in the lower gears, but quite a bit of back pedal noise in the higher (8-14) gears. Just wondered if that was normal ?
the rohloff is a lot lighter than I had thought it would be, and the gear changes are easy, intuitive and so easy to do.
The frame/bike fits perfectly, and is responsive and fast.
Looking forward to doing some longer rides and pointing it down some steep hills!!
cheers,
Simon
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Let me be the first to offer hearty congratulations and say welcome to the RST owners club!
It seems an age (barely 6 months ago) since I went through the spine tingling excitement of getting the RST out of its box and just gazing at in spellbound awe for 30 mins prior to undertaking the few necessities to get in on the road.
Incongruent cycling conditions seem to be the order of the day on taking possession of the RST. My first serious sortie culminated in a right royal battering from the wind over the Yorkshire moors, something which seemed to persist for a while on subsequent.
Hopefully things will settle down for you weather wise down-under soon. Whilst I was quite taken aback by the RST on initial rides, it wasn't until I went on tour in Andalucia that I really appreciated the true handling merits and comfort of the RST and the ergonomics of the Rohloff. Be prepared to have your cycling expectations completely redefined. Any tour plans in the making?
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Well done ! I told you it was dead easy; next month my female cycling partner will be ordering a Raven Tour (she needs the extra strength to carry her little daughter around). The temporary dent in your bank balance will be quickly forgotten and you can look forward to years of cycling enjoyment.
Freewheeling can be noisy in some gears but it all gets quiter over time and you get used to it (a little bit like greying and thinning hair; it is not really that important ).
Have a look at the road profiles on the 2007 Great Tasmanian Bike Ride; this is where my Speedhub will get a good workout. I am pretty average on the flat sections but take great pleasure in spectacular accelerations whilst climbing hills, thanks to the Rohloff (and the Thorn frame too, I suppose).
One thing I did in the beginning was to grab the right hand handlebar grip too firmly whilst shifting gears (like on a motorbike where the whole grip rotates). This resulted in some bits of cork breaking off.I've lost the habit now and use thumb and index to shift gears.
After a while you learn to shift the gears up and down smmothly whilst climbing, just by easing off a tiny bit on the pedals at the right time. It is very similar to a perfect gearchange on a manual car or truck : almost imperceptible.
Have fun !
Arnaud from Perth
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quote:
Originally posted by Arnaud
Well done ! I told you it was dead easy; next month my female cycling partner will be ordering a Raven Tour (she needs the extra strength to carry her little daughter around).
How will your partner be toting her little girl? I'm about to get a Bobike Maxi rear seat for mine, plus a prop stand!
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Hi Arnaud, yep, it was very easy, customs were great and Thorn had everything packaged very well.
I have a couple of hundred km's on the bike now (still blowing a gale here with intermittent rain) and I am enjoying the bike everytime I jump on it. Can't believe I didn't get a rohloff years ago, derailleurs no more for me!!
I have next week off, so will head down the coast for a few days (from Woollongong to Narooma, about 350km over 4-5days, so will see how things go.
cheers,
Simon
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I'd say you're right about the freewheeling noise. Fairly quiet in the lower range of gears and noticeably louder in 8th and above.
In fact, when passing horses slowly and freewheeling, I have been known to change into the low range so as to stand less chance of spooking the animal. Horses seem to be a lot more scared of bicycles than cars.
Of course, it can also be useful. Pedestrians totally ignore my bell, but usually get the idea if I stop pedalling and they hear the freewheel noise.
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quote:
Originally posted by ahconway
quote:
Originally posted by Arnaud
Well done ! I told you it was dead easy; next month my female cycling partner will be ordering a Raven Tour (she needs the extra strength to carry her little daughter around).
How will your partner be toting her little girl? I'm about to get a Bobike Maxi rear seat for mine, plus a prop stand!
She will be using a rear seat that slides onto a rear rack.All our bikes (even the RST) are equipped with a folding bike stand; I don't like the idea of such a valuable piece of equipment in the dirt or gravel plus here in Australia we have lots of ants everywhere. A few years ago I sat on a bullant and I still remember the experience !
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I have been looking at buying a bike for some time now and have decided that the Raven Sports Tour is probably the one for me..
So, I have been watching this space, but you have gone quiet of late.
Is this because you are out cycling all the time? Or have you ditched it?
I would really like to hear more about how you are getting on with the bike; I am having difficulty justifying the price tag and need to hear positive things..
Many thanks, Ellis
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I am in the same 'boat' and have been closely following exchanges about new owners´experiences of both RT and RST. All postings have helped me to think through my own specification.
One specific question is on frame size. I would like to know Simon's inside leg length and height. I am 177cm (5´10´´) and thinking of spcifying a 361 frame. My other dilemma is whether to have flat bars, drops or even order both options.
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Hi nnnmvq, I am 181cm tall, standover height in bare feet is 82cm, 84 with riding shoes. The frame size I got is 561L with a 110mm stem (I chose riding style - sporty).
Thorn Cycles worked out the frame size for me from my measurements, and I must say the frame\bike setup fits me perfectly. I got flat bars with inboard Thorn carbon bars and outboard bars which gives heaps of hand positions.
I ride this bike more than any bike I have had before, even going for quick 10-15km rides after work around the local bicycle track, just because. I ride 70-100km rides on weekends with an average speed of 22-24km (I am no speed freak, but do like to spin).
It took a bit leap of faith on my part to part with so much money for a bike from the other side of the world, and this forum helped my decision ,and I donot regret the decision and wish I had made it years before.
Trust Thorn in their bike sizing and just go for it !!!!
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I'd concur with ss. I bought my RT unseen, which really went against all instincts but I've ended up with a perfect fit. My only concern would be if you are an unusual shape ie. excessively tall or short (and according to your height your not) or have an unusual torso:leg length. I'm a fairly standard 175cm and went for a 537L. I'd follow the advice at SJSC. I opted for a standard position with the top of the comfort bar grips just a cm under the saddle.
The RT is a fantastic bike and is exactly right for my usage (everyday commuting and tours on all surfaces and needing minimal maintenance). I'd recommend ergongrips -very comfortable. I also went for internal bar ends but to be honest I've not used them very much - I could probably have saved money as the comfort bars with ergogrips give a range of positions -they might be better on completely flat bars. The only thing I've changed are the the Panaracer tyres which I didn't like at all.
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You're right...we are too busy enjoying our Ravens so we had to cut down on computer time !
Don't worry about the price; just a short sharp pain that will quickly be forgotten. I like the Panaracer Hi-Road 1.5"; done over 3.000kms on 50%/50% bitumen/gravel roads and not a single problem.
On my last and longest ride sofar (116km in very stormy weather, 6 hours in the saddle battling gale force winds) I got a very sore bum.
After unanimous advice from contributors to this forum, I ordered a Brooks B17 saddle to replace the original San Marco Rolls.If you are inexperienced and isolated like myself you have to rely on the independent advice from more experienced riders out there and also trust the people at SJS.Just go for it,a Raven bike will make you very happy and people around you will notice it.
Arnaud from Perth
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to nnnmmvg
I wouldn't advise ordering Flats and Drops unless you size it for Drops first. Then you could fit Flats as a 'nice to have'.
I ordered a frame to fit flats first (and didn't like the move to flats) then fitted Drops. The reach to the drops was way too far and I needed a frame swap.
If I fitted flats now I think the reach would be too short and make it a 'sit up and beg' position.
In summary Flat Bars and Drop Bars require a longer and shorter frame respectively (in my case anyway).
I find that Drops (with shifter fitted to accessory bar) works great.
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So here I am, still chewing the fat over whether to take the plunge. What I am interested in is some sort of comparison between the Sport Tour and the Tour. I am riding in thick traffic and I am leaning to the RST because it has the shorter wheelbase and therefore manoeuvrability (if I spelt that right it's a miracle). It also looks really balanced; but then I do want to load it up a bit occasionally...
It is difficult to get a comparison, because you are only likely to have one or the other (..or is there anyone out there with..?.. no, that would be too much..), but did anyone out there try both out, or sit on this same fence before falling one side or the other?
Simon, do you have any pictures of yours?
Thx, Ellis
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So here I am, still chewing the fat over whether to take the plunge. What I am interested in is some sort of comparison between the Sport Tour and the Tour. I am riding in thick traffic and I am leaning to the RST because it has the shorter wheelbase and therefore manoeuvrability (if I spelt that right it's a miracle). It also looks really balanced; but then I do want to load it up a bit occasionally...
It is difficult to get a comparison, because you are only likely to have one or the other (..or is there anyone out there with..?.. no, that would be too much..), but did anyone out there try both out, or sit on this same fence before falling one side or the other?
Simon, do you have any pictures of yours?
Thx, Ellis
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I rode the Sport Tour at SJSC (demonstrator) and bought the Tour.
The RST may be nippier that the Tour but it depends on what wheels and tyres you select also. It makes sense to take the RST with lightweight wheels and tyres or you could lose any performance in rotational inertia.
I wanted something I could load up like a Mule if I wanted. The RST has heel-clearance & max-load issues with large Panniers & big loads so it was a non-starter (for me)
I think it's a relativly simple question:
Will you ever want to pile it high with luggage/tent?
If NO, get the RST
If YES, get the Tour
Both bikes get rave reviews from their owners so it's unlikely you'll make a mistake.
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Freddered, thanks for that. It is exactly the sort of informed opinion that I was after. I was thinking of specifying Schwalbe Marathons, simply because they have reflective walls and I need every chance of being seen in traffic here (London)..
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Hi efpw, I had the same dilema with getting the Tour or sports tour. I ended up with the sports tour and while I can't compare it to the tour it does everything I could want. Realistically I don't do long long distance full camping touring. I do credit card touring, ie: staying in youth hostels or cabins in caravan parks, so can get away with 10-15kg of gear in panniers for up to a week or two at a time. I also wanted a bike that I would use as my commuter, daily ride, shopping cart and have fun with it. I am sure I would have been happy with eithor model and went with Thorns suggestion on the Sports Tour.
I have a blackburn rack, use large ortlieb rollerback panniers and have size 44 euro feet, and don't hit the panniers (I have the panniers set back as far as possible) when I have clip ons on, when I ride with runners/trainers I sometimes clip my heel, but that is when my foot is back a bit on the pedal, but no worries for me, I just move my foot forward a bit (I'll take some photo's).
I agree with freddered, decide what you really want to use the bike for. Realistically, if I was going to ride the Silk Road in China (which I will do one of these days) I will not take a $5,000AUD bike to do it on, I'll hire one for a few weeks while I am there, but I will ride the bike just about everywhere else. I'm taking it to Tassie for a few weeks this Christmas, and am back from a week riding down the South coast of NSW.
If you go the RST, keep it light, I use the panaracer high road tyres and ride on some pretty ordinary roads/bike paths (in Australia the roads are not that crash hot) and have had no problems, I find them fast and responsive. I had marathons on my previous cannondale T2000 and they were bulletproof, but a tad heavy and a bit slow, ideal for long distance touring but probably overkill for commuting, etc.
I couldn't decide on drops or flat bar eithor, and had in my head that I wanted drops, then thought that as the bike (with rohloff) etc was different to what I have had before, I should go for flat bar (or riser bar) as the rohloff changing is designed for this, and so I had extra bar ends added, inboard and outboard, so have plenty of hand positions and find the flat bar great. The longest ride so far is >100km (plus about 15km when I got to town riding around looking for the pub and the youth hostel) and I was keen to jump on the bike the next morning, so that to me is a sign that the bike is set up right for me. My mate (with a drop bar racing/touring bike) didn't want to get on his bike the next day ,and complained for the first couple of hours of stiffness and sore neck, etc. He doesn't ride as much as me, and I think it is because his bike is not quite right (for him) for what he uses it for, as a result he doesn't ride it much. I have a 110mm stem, so have a slightly stretched out position, frame is 561L I am 181cm tall.
I find myself finding excuses to go for a ride, I am 44years old, pretty fit, and still love riding, and do more of it with the RST.
Arnaud, thanks for your advise, I am very happy I took the plunge !!
cheers,
Simon
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It's the RST for me! Probably without the Marathons. Thanks for all of your feedback. Now I have to take a deep breath and a deep dig into my pockets. Will let you know how I get on..
Ellis
PS Probably also going for the S+S fittings, so that I can pack it in the back of the car..
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efpw, try the panaracers, I find them fine, fast and low resistance. The marathons are great tyres, but I think overkill.
What colour did you get ? and options ??????
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I agree the Panaracers ride well (at least as good if not better than marathons on tarmac), but literally the first time I took them onto a forest track (only 100 miles on the clock) I ripped the side wall and punctured. I also didn't like the way they pick up grit in the treads. The puncture was probably just bad luck but after 10,000 miles on standard Schwalbe marathons you can understand why i was keen to get rid of them. My reason for buying the RT was for exceptional reliability when touring/commuting on mixed surfaces so I couldn't risk being let down again. I find standard marathons fine (200g heavier than panaracers) and would probably agree that the heavier marathon plus (500g heavier) would be overkill for most routes. Both marathons and panaracer TG have kevlar reinforcement (marathon plus is thicker) but marathons have a much stronger side wall which is important on rocky surfaces or when carrying weight.
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Well, right now my current specification would be:
RST 561L frame, matt black with no markings (don't want to attract thieves in London)
Comfort bars with Cork handles
Standard brakes
Blackburn rear rack
Brooks Champion Flyer seat (B17 on springs), pre-aged
Schmidt hub dynamo, black anodised, wired front and rear with Lumotec Retro front light
Standard rims with (probably) Panaracer tyres (although still tempted by reflective Schwalbes)
S & S fittings (2mins to split bike into two; 5mins to reassemble)
Pitlock skewers and seat bolt (security again)
Mudguards front and rear
Black anodised Rohloff
Hebie chainglide, if possible.
There will be an interval now before I order, because I need time to percolate, so the spec. may change. Essentially, I want the bike to be as unnoticable as possible to anyone other than the very few.. There are too many bike thieves in London and I have too many friends who have fabulous, exotic bikes that they keep in their bedrooms, while they ride other bikes for fear of theft! So this has to be usable in an everyday way.
I have bared my soul!
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An excellent choice! My RT is all black for similiar reasons -understated excellence! The B17 saddle also distracts attention from thieves looking for saleable bling. I have even disguised the garish rohloff sticker on the hub with black tape as someone here recommended. I was tempted by cork grips but in the end went for ergogrips at Robin T's suggestion to give more positions on the bars and a better wrist position. I am very pleased with them and have no problem with my wrists now even after 60 mile+ days. I went for a Blackburn Mtn rack which is fine but in hindsight I might have gone for something a bit more substantial at the expense of a bit more weight. I also wish I'd specced a schmidt dynamo but was getting to the end of my budget.
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Aha, 'understated excellence'! We are obviously thinking along similar lines. I had also been thinking of black gaffer tape to hide the sticker on the hub; and, dare I admit it in this company, even applying a little fake rust here and there!
Do you have any pics of yours?
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Okay, so the fake rust is a step too far! Wouldn't it just be too much to hope that bicycle theft was not so prevalent. I mean 500,000 bikes a year is one figure that I read. . can that be right?
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Yes fake rust might be a bit much! I have had several comments along the lines of 'no-one would nick a bike with such girly handlebars' which I took to be reassurring. Incidentally I think the comfort bars work well although do not look as sporty as true flats or drops. 500,000 bikes a year does sound incredible but would explain the kind of insurance premiums we are charged for bikes. I'll try and find a way of posting a picture on the forum -not quite sure how to do this.....
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I feel a bit silly about the rust! It's too easy to get paranoid about theft. I live in Lambeth and I think most of the thieves probably live here and travel over the river for their spoils! My major obstacle at the moment is my wife(!), who cannot understand why a bike would cost this much. I am bringing her around, but I get more than my share of old-fashioned looks.
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Talking about Panaracers...
This morning, after over 3.200kms of use,I got my first flat. I also noticed the central groove was almost gone on the rear tyre, so I'll rotate the tyres to get a few extra miles out of them. Don't know if you can buy Panaracers in Australia, if not I'll probably go for similar Continentals or Michelins (Allons enfants de la patrie...).
How do you convince your wife/partner that the purchase of a nice Thorn bike is a wise investment? I don't know as I haven't yet told my wife; she is doing volunteer work in Niger and will be back next month. What she will notice is that I am in better shape than twelve months ago and I think this is worth heaps of $$$.
Why don't you buy your wife a similar bike ?
If she hates cycling (mine does)upgrade the TV-Stereo combination (I did)!
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Well Ravens certainly are a lot of money but I rationalised it by expecting it to last significantly longer than the £500 bikes I wear out and give away every 3 years. On top of this I must save some money on chains and cassettes. Moreover, I've just spent £600 servcing the car not to mention running costs, so my commuting to work means we save at least a Ravens-worth every two years by not running a second vehicle! However, it might be worth costing in a family break to deflect criticism.....
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Question for epfg. How do you lock a bike with S&S fittings? I know little about these fittings but am attracted to the idea for being able to fit the bike easibly into the back of the car and also to transport it on buses and trains -- as surprisingly in Sweden where I live bikes have to be packed to take them on most public transport.
My first concern (being an Engineer) as the structural strength of the frame would be impair by fitting S&S, however this I'm assured is not the case. Now after reading recent correspondence I would be worried about losing half the bike, unless two locks are used probable a U lock to secure the rear wheel and frame to a solid object and a wire with a lock to secure the front wheel to the rest of the bike.
I am also on the cusp of placing an order -- just now measuring up existing bikes and going through the decision making process RT/RST, drop or straight bars - then the hardest one of all the COLOUR!
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Question for epfg. How do you lock a bike with S&S fittings? I know little about these fittings but am attracted to the idea for being able to fit the bike easibly into the back of the car and also to transport it on buses and trains -- as surprisingly in Sweden where I live bikes have to be packed to take them on most public transport.
My first concern (being an Engineer) was the structural strength of the frame would be impair by fitting S&S, however this I'm assured is not the case. Now after reading recent correspondence I would be worried about losing half the bike, unless two locks are used probable a U lock to secure the rear wheel and frame to a solid object and a wire with a lock to secure the front wheel to the rest of the bike.
I am also on the cusp of placing an order -- just now measuring up existing bikes and going through the decision making process RT/RST, drop or straight bars - then the hardest one of all the COLOUR!
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Question for epfg. How do you lock a bike with S&S fittings? I know little about these fittings but am attracted to the idea for being able to fit the bike easibly into the back of the car and also to transport it on buses and trains -- as surprisingly in Sweden where I live bikes have to be packed to take them on most public transport.
My first concern (being an Engineer) was the structural strength of the frame would be impair by fitting S&S, however this I'm assured is not the case. Now after reading recent correspondence I would be worried about losing half the bike, unless two locks are used probable a U lock to secure the rear wheel and frame to a solid object and a wire with a lock to secure the front wheel to the rest of the bike.
I am also on the cusp of placing an order -- just now measuring up existing bikes and going through the decision making process RT/RST, drop or straight bars - then the hardest one of all the COLOUR!
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nnnmvg - locking a bike with S&S fittings is just how you describe - a gold standard U lock through the rear triangle fixed to a solid object with a thick cable through the front wheel, cable needs to be long enough to be secured in the U lock. Pitlock skewers and aheadset bolt add a bit more security.
After that you could insure the bike to give total peace of mind in case of theft/vandalism.
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Arnaud and Geocycle, I shall employ a combination of your tactics. My wife loves holidays, so perhaps I should book a cycling holiday and, after a couple of days in the saddle on her sub-£100 bike, let her try the Raven? Also the cost of congestion charge and hike in public transport prices recently particularly help in the justifications.. Little by little.
Regarding the questions of security, nnnmvg, I agree with julk's reply with one extra comment, which is that, in order to get the best security, using high quality cable (through the front wheel, with pitlock skewer) as well as frame, in addition to a good U-lock, means that any thief needs two different types of equipment.. ONLY if you don't use the U-lock to secure the cable: use a good padlock with an armoured hasp for this. In practice it is much quicker than it sounds. Particularly if you pre-secure one end of the cable by feeding itself through it's own eye and around the rear triangle upright, leaving only one end to secure with the padlock on a daily basis.
There is good advice from Harvard after a spate of bike thefts recommending a U-lock simply around a section of the rear wheel within the rear triangle and to a solid post. Furthermore, using a relatively small U-lock makes it more difficult for a thief to get his cutters, or commonly their 'jack', into the centre of it to cut through; but this also limits you to the use of only small posts.
Of course, we are simply hoping to deflect thiefs to an easier target. A determined thief, with time and a quiet corner will, unfortunately, get through any lock.
Concerning S & S fittings, they are pretty obscure and it is unlikely most thieves would know what they are.. And, as for their strength, I am also an engineer and I think that my mind has been put to rest here; and my engineering curiosity and the convenience that they offer are now the overriding factors.
Pleased to get all of that off my chest.
Best,
Ellis
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Hi efpw, Excuse the late post.
Regarding the RST - I don't think you will find ANY negative comments from an owner of this bike. It does everything remarkably well. I have clocked up 3000 miles on mine since January this year. I commute by bike, by Christmas the bike will have paid for itself. What is more I enjoy every mile. I generally use it unloaded but often ride with 15kg on the rear. I have taking it mountain biking and have used it with a trailer. It has always answered the call. (NB I don't recommend it for as a MTB but it did the job!)
My RST is fitted with drops - most of my miles are unloaded on country road. I don’t find ANY problems with the position of the shifter. If I were living in a big city I think I would opt for a comfort bar. For the wheels I would recommend Mavic 717 rims mine haven't needed any care at all. I too am an advocate for the B17 but it does take some looking after. If you are going to lock the bike up outside frequently then you will need some sort of saddle cover to protect from the rain.
S & S fittings - a destructive test was done on a frame (not a Thorn) fitted with a pair of S & S the frame broke before the fittings. They are VERY strong - wish I had a set! I don't think security is a problem with them a thief would recognise one - even if he did I doubt he would have the tools to undo it.
Completely agree with you remarks on security. On thing worth doing is to carefully remove the sticker from the Rohloff hub - this IS aloud under the warrantee and it looks better than gaffer tape! Note you must keep the label for any warrantee claim. Rohloff recommend sticking it to the their hand book if removed.
Good luck with the purchase.
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Thanks Stutho.
I agree entirely on removing the label. It's good to hear that it is allowed by Rohloff and I think that I read elsewhere that warming the label with a hair-drier, if we own such a thing, helps to soften the adhesive.
I did notice on the Rohloff website that neither Thorn, nor SJS Cycles, is listed. Do you think they're just being shy?
Ellis
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I couldn't shift the label. I thought I'd got it but it was a transparent cover and the rest stayed stuck. I must try the hair-drier tactic. Some photos now posted, see entry in 'my new raven tour' thread.
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Just realised that it was one of Stutho's ideas, from another thread, that suggested the hair-drier. Nothing like taking your watch to tell you the time!!
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Yes I used a heat gun to help. I also tried WD40. (NOT AT THE SAME TIME!!! WD40 is VERY Flammable.) Even with the heat gun it was very difficult to remove. I used more WD40 to remove the residue and then polished with Mer.
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Ref to Lable removal: Rohloff service handbook (http://"http://www.rohloff.de/fileadmin/rohloffde/download/beschreibung/speedhub/handbuch/service_2.13.en.pdf") P128
quote:
S t i c k e r
If the tape around the hub shell should be removed at any time, we recommend to separate first the serial-N°. with
a sharp carpet knife from the tape and then to leave only the serial-N° on the hub. If the tape should be removed
completely, the serial-N° should be saved and/or stuck onto the warranty card. Alternatively, the serial- N° can
also can be engraved on the hub cap!
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Sorry for the triple post but I just thought I should also mention that you don’t want to get the hub too hot you still want to be able to hold it.
Geocyle - I too removed a transparent layer before the label. I also snapped the label more than once in the first inch. I then got more liberal with the heat gun. I got the rest off in one section. Hint start on the opposite side to serial no.
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I'd like some more comments (convincing) on the cost/benefit of S&S fittings. Have just started the purchase process of a RT (decided on because of large pannier and tyre options alth' my first choice was a RST). The retrofit cost of S&S fittings is £420 and I could buy a large case for less money!
I have just noticed that there is and S&S version of RST. Maybe this is the cheaper option and then I might have to go back to plan A!