Thorn Cycles Forum
Technical => General Technical => Topic started by: alfie1952 on March 08, 2014, 09:54:56 pm
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I may be in the minority,but I just cannot get used to my Brooks saddle, it has been on and off more times than I can mention. Also I do not find it as comfortable as the Specialized one I have on at the moment or my Selle Italia Flite I have on my other bike. So is it that people who ride Thorn or high class touring bikes think it is expected of them to be shown to be riding a Brooks, or is it really as comfortable as people say. Also for the people who have more than one bike, do they all have Brooks, if not do they find that much of a difference in comfort whilst out and about on their other bikes.
Dan if this is in wrong spot please put it into the appropriate one.
Regards, Alfie
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Alfie i had the champion b17 on the sherpa comfy straight out of the box.on my other bikes i have the fizik alanti expensive but great saddles,i went through the wars with saddle sores until my son brought me home my first fizik alanti from belgium he was racing out there.
fantastic saddle never had a problen since (touch wood) ::)
but this may sound bonkers ,well coming from me maybe not,
but on a loaded touring bike the brooks was way better than the fizik. i can't explain that but it was a fact.so give the brooks time you will grow into it as me ma used to say.
jags.
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Brooks it is for me now Alfie. I've given up on padded shorts, chamois cream and all that jazz and the good old brooks b17s are all day comfortable for me, never a pimple to fret over. Most of my other saddles now feel like splitting wedges particularly the Flites!
Mind you, next time I need to buy I might try one of the Spa cycles copies...
Happy backside
Ian
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The first brooks I had was put on my custom built bike.
A Conquest which eventually became the flyer. The one with the springs.
Heavy, it was agony to ride on, but I persevered for years, eventually selling it on Ebay.
After reading so many good things own a B17 on each of my bikes, and love them. They do feel best with cycle shorts.
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Ride what you're comfortable with, Alfie. I'm a Brooks fan too, because the one I have suits me; but most people think it is atrociously heavy and that the three coil springs will cause it to be unstable under you. But I like my B73 because it was comfortable out of the box. I take the view, with shoes and saddles and watch straps, that if they aren't comfortable straight away, it isn't your problem; you just go elsewhere and get someone else's product. All this mystique about Brooks and some other cycling products is counterproductive to an informed choice. That said, a lot of experienced cyclists get along just fine with Brooks, and I'm am not, repeat not, going back to gel saddles.
A couple of points. Has anyone told you yet that a Brooks saddle should be set up very slightly nose up? And that it should in most instances be as far back on your seat pin as the short rails permit?
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Hi Alfie!
I went through the Saddle Wars early on before finding happiness for many years with the Avocet Touring II line of saddles. They had a thin leather cover over two bumps of foam and a thinned plastic shell beneath. Like many things, they're no longer made.
I remember eyeing Brooks saddles and being very skeptical. Most of those available locally had sat in sun-drenched display cases for decades and were hard as fiberglass. I don't think any amount of Proofide would have helped. I tried a lovely Fujita Pro that came with a used bike. The thing was beautifully made of 1/4in thick water buffalo hide and was unfortunately too narrow for me; I ended up sitting on the steel cantle plate at the rear. I sold it to a neighbor who rode with much lower handlebars and he loved it.
For me, the wider B.17 suits my more upright stance with 45° back and drop handlebars at saddle-top height. I've found my B17s to be visually attractive, yes, but also comfortable even/especially on 300-400km day rides. My only present complaint is Brooks seems to be making the B.17 Standard out of more compliant leather, and I prefer mine harder to be longer-lasting. I've several here sitting in the boxes for resale 'cos they're too soft for my preference. I will probably buy B.17 Champion Specials in future to get the thicker leather I prefer.
Alfie, A couple things to watch. Be sure the Brooks you choose is wide enough to accommodate your sit-bones (ischial tuberosities) on the leather, so you're not sitting on the metal flange at the back. The saddle you choose in this way will very much reflect your position on the bike. Most people's sit-bones are set in such a way as to be effectively narrower when seated bent-over, and become effectively wider when sitting more upright. Match the saddle to position/need!
Second, heed Andre's advice about setup. Though I prefer my Brooks to eventually sit level, they start out slightly nose-high till broken-in a bit. That can be a key factor in avoiding numbness. If you are numb, it is worthwhile determining "where". The pudendal nerve can be compressed, leading to numbness in the ehm, nether regions. Placement and positioning are key factors here, but Brooks also make the Imperial with a cutout top intended to relieve pressure: http://www.brooksengland.com/catalogue-and-shop/saddles/touring+&+trekking/B17+Imperial/ If the numbness in at the sit-bones, then I suspect a problem with positioning/placement where you're carrying too much weight on your bottom for the width of the saddle.
Third, placement on the rails. As I recall, the B.17 was designed about 1897, and is still manufactured on essentially the same machinery. In those days, bicycles has much more relaxed geometry than at present, so it can be had to get a Brooks (especially the more sporting models) in the right position unless they sit far back on the rails. However, if you do this, take care. That cantilevers a lot of weight on the rails, and they've been known to snap (I've broken several) -- especially if they have the older, chromed rails that sometimes suffered hydrogen embrittlement due to improper chroming technique by subcontractors. My approach has been to use a seatpost with a long-layback clamp to get the clamp more nearly in the center of the rails to avoid undue stress when used for years on rough roads. The effect is to get the saddle back as Andre endorses, but to do so with minimal stress on the rails.
Finally, remember we're all individuals and saddles just aren't "fits all" solutions. I think it is more important to find a saddle that fits *you* than to follow the herd, and certainly one should not do so for fashion's sake at the expense of comfort, fit, or enjoyment. If a Brooks doesn't fit, then move on to something that works better for you. Remember: No one will see it clearly with you atop it!
I hope something in the above will help. Brooks are nice saddles that work for many, but don't meet the needs of everyone.
Best,
Dan.
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Some prefer leather, some prefer other-than-leather. I prefer leather saddles but have a plastic one on my utility bike that I store outside.
The B17 (or Flyer which is the sprung version of the B17) is too wide for me and feels too flat in the back, I use Brooks Conquest on most bikes, that is a discontinued model that essentially is a Brooks Pro with springs. But, I have drop bars which means that I vary the amount of forward lean quite a bit from when my hands are on the tops of the bars to on the drops. If I used flat mountain bike bars so that I always was more upright with the same amount of forward lean, I might be able to adjust the B17 or Flyer to fit about right. Next month I plan to do a off road trip with my Nomad that is more of a mountain bike route than road, as an experiment I plan to use a Flyer for that since I do not expect to lean over to use the drops very much on that route.
If you prefer a different saddle, use it instead. Leather takes a different shape better than plastic which is virtually unmoldable, but if you are lucky and have found a plastic seat that fits you, that is great. It takes me many hours to get a new leather saddle broken in to be about right. One of my Conquests is still in the process of breaking in.
I have a B17 (rarely use it), a Flyer (occasionally use it) and four Conquests.
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Quite as many Brooks preferences as there are Brooks models!
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Brooks it is for me now Alfie. I've given up on padded shorts, chamois cream and all that jazz and the good old brooks b17s are all day comfortable for me, never a pimple to fret over. Most of my other saddles now feel like splitting wedges particularly the Flites!
Mind you, next time I need to buy I might try one of the Spa cycles copies...
Happy backside
Ian
Having also owned a couple of B17s, I can vouch for the Spa Brooks copies; I have the Aire titanium on my Spa Audax. Less than 1/2 the price of the equivalent Brooks, but a comfortable and light saddle so far; I spent some of the money I saved on one of their very nice leather saddle bags!!!
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My approach has been to use a seatpost with a long-layback clamp to get the clamp more nearly in the center of the rails to avoid undue stress when used for years on rough roads. The effect is to get the saddle back as Andre endorses, but to do so with minimal stress on the rails.
Dan
I'm having the problem of no more rear adjustment and riding on the rivets......... can you recommend a seatpost for my Raven.
Colin
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Hi Colin!
I was about to recommend the black Thorn/Zoom long-layback seatpost that came with Sherpa and my Nomad, but I don't see it listed at SJS Cycles anymore (!): http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/seat-posts-rigid-dept292_pg1/?geoc=us#filterkey=brand&brand=THORN,ZOOM&page=1&page=1
Perhaps Dave Whittle can tell us if it is still available, or of a similar high-value alternative?
It was a nice seatpost for a reasonable price with lots of layback. The clamp adjustments were a bit coarse, but reversing it split the difference so all good.
Nitto make some outstanding alternatives, but they are more expensive and...silver.
I'll keep looking, Colin.
Best,
Dan.
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+1 for the Zoom Layback Seatpost, although I don't think it's been in stock for some time now. If SJS got them back in stock I would buy another as a spare.
I have a Brooks Team Pro on my RST, very rarely wear padded shorts and I wouldn't have any other saddle. I love the fact that I can slide an inch or so in either direction to relieve pressure on long rides, although saddles like hiking boots are a very personal thing. One plus point with Brooks is if you buy one and aren't happy with it you will always get a good second hand price for it on eBay or similar sites.
Neil
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Hi Colin!
I was about to recommend the black Thorn/Zoom long-layback seatpost that came with Sherpa and my Nomad, but I don't see it listed at SJS Cycles anymore (!): http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/seat-posts-rigid-dept292_pg1/?geoc=us#filterkey=brand&brand=THORN,ZOOM&page=1&page=1
When I picked up my bike I wanted one of those but they didn't have them then .....that was last September :-(
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When I picked up my bike I wanted one of those but they didn't have them then .....that was last September :-(
They are out of production i'm afraid, Zoom no longer have the ability to make them.
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They are out of production i'm afraid, Zoom no longer have the ability to make them.
I use a Thompson Elite layback post, which is superb, but expensive. I bought it for the 16mm set back, and for the micro-adjustable tilt. I found it really allowed me to fine-tune the Brooks B17 saddle - no more numbness or sliding up or down. Brilliant!
I've said it here before, but IMHO, one of the chief benefits of a shiny leather saddle is the reduction in friction and chafing. I've never used one of the narrow saddles, but I'm guessing they would be even better, as long as your weight was still supported by your sit bones, and not in between.
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I have been looking at theThompson Elite but I am concerned about how much I need to have exposed be for the bent, I tend to not have much post exposed.
Peter
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I also have a Thomson elite, now transferred to my Sherpa, and reckon you need at least 130mm from the centre of the clamp,at the rails to clear the slight layback. I am going to give Brooks another go with the Thomson seatpost, but will try with a b17. Though I did noticed leftpoole has a nice saddle for sale.....maybe !
Alfie
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Was out today on the bike as it was lovely here in Edinburgh. Met an old friend and was telling him of my woes regarding the brooks saddle, he was on his bike which was sporting a really nice black B17. Later on I received a text from another friend addressed to Numbnuts. Word gets around but no sympathy whatsoever...
Regards, Alfie
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Later on I received a text from another friend addressed to Numbnuts. Word gets around but no sympathy whatsoever...
What do you expect from cyclists, people who sat on Brooks saddles all their lives -- maidenly manners? Hell, they probably have drop handlebars too.
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Alfie the b17 champion special with copper rivets and rails is a cracking saddle, i think the leather is much thicker,only reason i think that ,a guy i toured with in france was on a ladies brooks ::)(i ask you) ;D ;D but the leather was much thinner than mine .
i know theres a smart Arse answer coming up shortly
Controll yourself Andre. 8)
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Anto, any man over forty and not in padded lycra nappies could call himself a smart arse ;D
Peter. You are right to fear the bend on the Elite layback post if you don't have much post showing: because, it is literally a straight post bent backwards. The area just below the bend is slightly out of round as a result and most frames will not clamp it well in this area.
You can see a dimensioned drawing on the specs part of this page http://bikethomson.com/elite-seatpost-series/ but I would subtract at least 10mm from their claimed usable length. (A colleague of mine found this out the hard way but did get a refund in the end when his kept slipping when inserted to the theoretical limit.)
Other than that it's the best post you can get and allows quick and easy but also miniscule and controlled in situ adjustments that a Brooks needs.
Champion days
Ian
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Here are the specs from their website:
http://bikethomson.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/002-Elite-seatpost-SB-dimension-sketch-for-websitecorrected-lengths-rev_D1-1024x785.jpg
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Looking at the link there would be enough out of the frame. My seat rails are 132mm above the frame and the link shows 97mm so that would work. It looks like the setback is only 16mm that does not seem very much to me, as when you look at a standard seatpost they appear to have some setback.
Wiggle have them on sale at the moment for £48.99 with free delivery. http://www.wiggle.co.uk/thomson-elite-setback-seat-post/ (http://www.wiggle.co.uk/thomson-elite-setback-seat-post/)
All the best.
Peter.
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If you want 30 or 40 mm of setback for a Brooks saddle here are some seatposts.
http://www.freshtripe.co.uk/Freshtripe/Seats%20%26%20Seatposts.html (http://www.freshtripe.co.uk/Freshtripe/Seats%20%26%20Seatposts.html)
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If you want 30 or 40 mm of setback for a Brooks saddle here are some seatposts.
http://www.freshtripe.co.uk/Freshtripe/Seats%20%26%20Seatposts.html
Yes that is much more realistic.
Peter
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If you want 30 or 40 mm of setback for a Brooks saddle here are some seatposts.
http://www.freshtripe.co.uk/Freshtripe/Seats%20%26%20Seatposts.html (http://www.freshtripe.co.uk/Freshtripe/Seats%20%26%20Seatposts.html)
Sweet!!
LURV the Velo Orange stuff! I've pimped my Trek 520 with some of their gear.
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People ooooh and aaaah about some of the VO stuff I have--rando bars, Zeppelin mudguards & they ask where it's from. I just shrug, "VO -- in Joisey, don'tcha know." Unless they're cyclists, they think I'm joking...
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I may be in the minority,but I just cannot get used to my Brooks saddle, it has been on and off more times than I can mention. Also I do not find it as comfortable as the Specialized one I have on at the moment or my Selle Italia Flite I have on my other bike. So is it that people who ride Thorn or high class touring bikes think it is expected of them to be shown to be riding a Brooks, or is it really as comfortable as people say. Also for the people who have more than one bike, do they all have Brooks, if not do they find that much of a difference in comfort whilst out and about on their other bikes.
Dan if this is in wrong spot please put it into the appropriate one.
Regards, Alfie
Hi Alfie,
It's No to Brooks!
Specialized make far better Saddles and I know as I work in a Specialized Bike Shop! I have been riding Brooks for the last few years (I started riding them in 1988? or 1989!).
I have a few seating in box's? OK I have only 6 Brooks!!
But how ride only Specialized ??? No not because I work in a Specialized Shop! but because I can how ride for hours and still have body parts that work :o
Kiwi Pete.......
:'(
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900 miles so far on my B17. I had to put a gel cover on it for two reasons
Slippery as an oiled eel
Torturously hard on my butt
My Thorn came with a new Brooks, but I took it off and replaced it with a Rivet Pearl. I put the cheap cycle shorts on and went for my first 10 mile spin on the Thorn and when I came back I could feel the blood rushing back to my man-bits, so I might have a ceremonial burning of the cycle shorts at the very least as the Pearl has been reasonable up to now.
As a former Honda Goldwing rider I have become used to some comfort, which I am unlikely to find in any cycle saddle
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It's No to Brooks!
Specialized make far better Saddles and I know as I work in a Specialized Bike Shop! I have been riding Brooks for the last few years (I started riding them in 1988? or 1989!).
Kiwi Pete,
I'm only a couple of kms short of 2500km on my new Thorn and namely my Brooks B17 and I don't want to make knee jerk decisions, but so far I'm not loving my much vaunted Brooks. I don't want to discount it but after 2500kms I would have thought it would be broken in by now. In the short time I've owned the bike (and saddle!) I've done a lot of 5-1/2 - 6 hour rides on it, so I'm giving it every chance to break in, but it just isn't really doing it for me. To cut a long story short, I'd love a suggestion at what Specialized model saddle I may want to look at, and please don't be shy, give me a recommendation and I promise no complaints if I were to choose it and didn't like it. Although I am very seriously considering going "back to the future" and getting an old Sellia Italia Turbo from Wiggle*, seemingly the same model they produced in the 1980s and I used and loved on many bikes.
My best recommendation for a saddle is that you don't notice that it is there and the Turbos were like that.
So far I have resisted the temptation to change from the Brooks, but I think I've given a fair old go?
Many thanks
Tony
* http://www.wiggle.co.uk/selle-italia-turbo-leather-1980-saddle/ (http://www.wiggle.co.uk/selle-italia-turbo-leather-1980-saddle/)
** I even used to use the Sellia Italia Turbo on my Track Bikes:
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3070/2953583643_5d4c1206b0_z.jpg?zz=1)
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Wow fantastic shot bet you weren't even thinking at that time if your saddle was comfy or not.
if your saddle is giving you problems after weeks of riding get rid of it ,i went through 5 saddles old and new until i got the fizik alanti, bingo at last a comfy saddle never had a problem since.
are you lads wearing quality padded shorts sure thats half the battle.
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bet you weren't even thinking at that time if your saddle was comfy or not.
Jags,
You are right, I wasn't thinking of the saddle at the time! I was just thinking "just keeping pushing those pedals" over and over!
It was the 1000m (kilometre) Time Trial, and it was/is a brutal event - extremely hard. A six hour, 160km training ride was easier - no joking.
Tony
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Tony -- great foto!
As for your Brooks saddle, after 2500kms I would have thought it would be broken in by now
-- for sure. Mine was good out of the box two-plus years ago, and after 300 kms or so to get the fine adjustments right, I didn't think about it any more. Seems to me that your instinct to go back to the Selle is sound. You and the saddle may have changed in the intervening years, but if it once worked well, that seems a good enough reason to renew acquaintances. And as one of the posts mentioned, you shouldn't have too much difficulty reselling your B17 -- there's a fairly strong demand for those saddles.
Between the suggestions from Jags and Kiwi Pete, you have a couple more options to explore as well. Gets expensive, I know, but those points of contact between body & bike--saddle, pedals, bars--have to be right if you're going to enjoy touring.
Good luck! J.
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Tony i can well believe it was torture .when i was talking to Phil Collins about track riding at that level Olympic standard ,he said it was pure torture and not always worth it ,his training like yours was mental.but hey great memories ;)
if you can get your hands on the FIZIK ALANTI give it a try it is a CLASS saddle.
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I just can't believe that you didn't chuck a saddle that isn't right at 500m or a 1000m, Tony. And for sure, at 2500m, if it hasn't cuddled up to you and licked your nose, you're never going bond with it. You've given the legend a fair go, so sell it on, get something you can sit on and forget about forever.
To anyone contemplating a Brooks who haven't had one before, it's been said a couple of times already in this thread, but it is important enough to say again: you don't choose a Brooks saddle by the model your pals like, you chose one that is wide enough for your own, individual, personal sit-bones and, furthermore, the more upright you sit, the wider your saddle has to be.
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The MAN hath spoken.
(or just put a sheepskin cover on a B17 and enjoy rides again)
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Thanks to everyone for your advice - I persevered for almost 2500kms as I didn't want to chuck it out until giving it a fair go, but the consensus is that I've been more than fair. I did a 4 day, 3 night mini tour a couple of weeks ago for 300km, so it is usable, and I am off for something a little bigger next week, so I'll not change to something new until after that, as at least I know the Brooks is usable, even if not wonderful. Then it will be a toss up between a Sellia Italia Turbo, a Specialized and a Fizik!
Many thanks everyone,
Tony
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Kiwi Pete,
I'm only a couple of kms short of 2500km on my new Thorn and namely my Brooks B17 and I don't want to make knee jerk decisions, but so far I'm not loving my much vaunted Brooks. I don't want to discount it but after 2500kms I would have thought it would be broken in by now. In the short time I've owned the bike (and saddle!) I've done a lot of 5-1/2 - 6 hour rides on it, so I'm giving it every chance to break in, but it just isn't really doing it for me. To cut a long story short, I'd love a suggestion at what Specialized model saddle I may want to look at, and please don't be shy, give me a recommendation and I promise no complaints if I were to choose it and didn't like it. Although I am very seriously considering going "back to the future" and getting an old Sellia Italia Turbo from Wiggle*, seemingly the same model they produced in the 1980s and I used and loved on many bikes.
My best recommendation for a saddle is that you don't notice that it is there and the Turbos were like that.
So far I have resisted the temptation to change from the Brooks, but I think I've given a fair old go?
Many thanks
Tony
Hi Tony,
I like on most of my Bikes a Specialized PHENOM COMP GEL, But Specialized has a 90 day try and change on there Saddles.
You need to have your Sat Bone's Sized up to work out which seat fits, NOTE: this is Sat Bones NOT Your Size the Saddles come in 130, 143, 155, and 168mm wide! For Women and Men, we sell Men Saddles to some Women and Some Women's Saddles to Men :o
Go see the Team in Burkes Cycles (I have shopped in there for a number of years when down your way ;))
I have find that the new Brooks broke in for me after only a few days riding, Not as good as back in the 1980's :'(
If you would like a few more Brooks I can Sale you all of my one's But note: one (two) are Limited Editions!
One is the B17 SELECT WORLD TRAVELLER 2012 (the Year I died in Africa) and One is SWALLOW LIMITED EDITION 2005 still new and not been one a Bike :) (cost too much and going up)
All the Best Kiwi Pete..
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Kiwi Pete
Thanks for your thoughts and recommendation - I will take you up on it and make a visit to Burkes Cycles and see if they can sort me out and with a 90 day trial, you can not be fairer than that, and I am not the kind of person to abuse that kind of offer. As for buying your old Brooks, I find the one Brooks I own one too many, so I won't be taking you up on your kind offer. I wonder if they do 90 day returns on their shoes - I bought a pair of Specialized Rimes recently for $300 and they are not my favourites either. I have an older pair of Specialized shoes that has a couple of holes in the uppers, which I have taken to the shoe repairer the other day, so hopefully I can go back to my old favourites soon.
many thanks
Tony.
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To anyone contemplating a Brooks who haven't had one before, it's been said a couple of times already in this thread, but it is important enough to say again: you don't choose a Brooks saddle by the model your pals like, you chose one that is wide enough for your own, individual, personal sit-bones and, furthermore, the more upright you sit, the wider your saddle has to be.
This is true, depending on the drop I have on a bike depends on the saddle. But I've used 2 brooks saddles and found the both comfortable as long as they where on the right bike (tried my pro on a level saddle to bar bike and didn't enjoy the ride so picked up a b17 and it was good, still is).