Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Thorn General => Topic started by: horizon on October 14, 2013, 11:47:47 pm
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I was just perusing the Club Tour frames on the SJS site but some sizes/colours don't seem to be available. Is this because it isn't the normal route to buy a frame (i.e. you order it through Thorn) or is it due to something else?
Any info appreciated!
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hmm, when I phoned to ask about sizing six months ago, it was hinted that they were bringing out a new club tour, ( I seem to remember something about disk brakes?). Maybe they are running down stock before the change?
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I just bought a club tour frame; size 517L, they had 3 in stock at the time.
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Hello,
Thinking along similar lines my opinion is a different type of Club Tour maybe disc brakes which goes against everything the designer has always said, or oblivion for this model! However another opinion says that Thorn are Rohloff and nothing else matters anymore except maybe Sherpa and Audax.
I have a gripe about the sales speak from Andy Blance. For example he states no toe overlap with Audax Mk 3. I defy him and no matter which cycling shoe I wear there is some toe overlap. The other gripe I have are his statements that his bikes are the best built ever and best value.
I own a number of Thorn bikes, I have no particular complaint as I own them because I like them and the bikes suit me. I do not however believe that Thorn bikes are the best to be built or to buy, I do not believe that the bikes sell because of the overbearing advertising but in spite of it! Thorn should start advertising in CTC Magazine and other magazines and not rely on Rohloff output because surely one day customers for that type of heavyweight bike will dry up? I do not know if other bikes are better or better value, I do know that the service from St John St Cycles is generally second to none!
John
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Hello,
Thinking along similar lines my opinion is a different type of Club Tour maybe disc brakes which goes against everything the designer has always said, or oblivion for this model! However another opinion says that Thorn are Rohloff and nothing else matters anymore except maybe Sherpa and Audax.
I have a gripe about the sales speak from Andy Blance. For example he states no toe overlap with Audax Mk 3. I defy him and no matter which cycling shoe I wear there is some toe overlap. The other gripe I have are his statements that his bikes are the best built ever and best value.
I own a number of Thorn bikes, I have no particular complaint as I own them because I like them and the bikes suit me. I do not however believe that Thorn bikes are the best to be built or to buy, I do not believe that the bikes sell because of the overbearing advertising but in spite of it! Thorn should start advertising in CTC Magazine and other magazines and not rely on Rohloff output because surely one day customers for that type of heavyweight bike will dry up? I do not know if other bikes are better or better value, I do know that the service from St John St Cycles is generally second to none!
John
Hi John, I pretty much agree with everything you say here.
Thorn should start advertising in CTC Magazine
SJSC used to carry large adverts in every issue of the CTC magazine. Coincidentally, if memory serves me correctly that stopped after a review of the Club Tour by Chris Juden of CTC ... this was followed up in the next magazine with a letter of complaint from Thorn and the CTC magazine response ... then no more adverts in CTC magazine.
Regards.
Jim
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Hi John, I pretty much agree with everything you say here.
SJSC used to carry large adverts in every issue of the CTC magazine. Coincidentally, if memory serves me correctly that stopped after a review of the Club Tour by Chris Juden of CTC ... this was followed up in the next magazine with a letter of complaint from Thorn and the CTC magazine response ... then no more adverts in CTC magazine.
Regards.
Jim
Jim,
The CTC Magazine review by Chris Juden was complete rubbish in my opinion. I actually wrote and told him so. No response from him. The factors he mentioned in particular were strangely toe overlap! I defy anyone to get toe overlap on a Club Tour.
Thank you for your kind comments of agreement also. I had wondered if I had spoken out of turn...
John
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Is there supposed to be a post here? Mine is blank.
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A club tour with discs would almost definitely be my next bike if they were to do one. I understand the rhetoric behind not having discs on touring, but a bike used predominantly in Europe or America where spares are readily available or around the UK where the flight transport problem is not going to be an issue I think discs make a lot of sense, especially if you have clearance for some large (50mm) tyres...
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:) Sorry thids is in the wrong place! But someone asked about tyre sizes for an Audax Mk 3. I can tell one and all that 32mm Conti Top Touring tyres fit! Tight, but they fit.
Discs on any Thorn would be an abomination the last time I read any of Andy Blance musings!
John
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Interesting discussion here. I just thought about a proper hydraulic-(please)-disc-braked commuter bike this morning while fighting wind and downpour on my way to work.
I cycle everyday a Specialized Langster and depsite its lightness, it's not famous for its braking capability when it rains... Discs would make sense sometimes, especially in unpredictable heavy traffic. The Sherpa is only when the weather is really really bad or when it's shopping day ;).
Regards,
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For me the benefits of discs of better modulation of stopping, better stopping with a load, better all weather stopping outweigh the downsides which as I see it are
extra weight - its a tourer, I dont care about weight
aerodynamic penalty - its a tourer I dont care about aerodynamics
possibility of damage in transit - Im touring in the UK, from either my doorway or somewhere I can get to in a train. If its damaged its my fault!
Lack of spares - Im touring in the UK.
Brake fade - I think is probably a bit of a red herring, especially if you alternate braking down a hill between front and back brakes.
For other people I can see how their results would differ.
It does get rid of one sight benefits of the canti's I currently have though, which squeal like a bugger and very effectively announce my presence to stupid pedestrians who step into the cycle lane... ;)
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I've checked with Thorn and there is indeed a new frame on the way hence the running down of stocks. I'm not completely fussed myself about discs but I can see why it is almost impossible nowadays for any manufacturer not to offer them.
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Disc or not? I'm assuming without any prior knowledge that there will probably be a disc mount on the chain stay but no forks for discs.
out of interest what is the weight of a club tour frame and forks?
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:) I thought that might cause a bit of interest. I have to say that i was equally surprised when I heard this on the phone as i have also read all the marketing blurb ( which i really quite enjoy if not whole heatedly believe 100%). However, the Mercury is available with a rear disc brake is it not?
This may all turn out to just be a complete memory failure on my behalf : time will tell
In the meantime CSS rims with modern V brakes give me the modulation and braking power i need with no maintenance. Having used disc brakes on mountain bikes i can't say that i am convinced of their superiority.
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Hi John,
I don't want to disappoint you re your statement I defy anyone to get toe overlap on a Club Tour
...but. I have a 517L Club Tour and my size 44 shoes do actually (but only just) overlap the guard.
It's never created a problem for me, but I would think that if my shoes were a size larger or if I were using toe clips it would be a potential issue. (I'm using SPD's)
If Dan can instruct me on the art of uploading photos, I can post a pic.
Best Regards,
pj
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If Dan can instruct me on the art of uploading photos, I can post a pic.
Hi Peter!
I've written a little tutorial on how to attach or embed photos here: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=4313.0
I'll be available by PM or email later today if you still have questions on the process. It is easy once one gets the hang of it. I'm looking forward to those photos!
All the best,
Dan.
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Hi John,
I don't want to disappoint you re your statement ...but. I have a 517L Club Tour and my size 44 shoes do actually (but only just) overlap the guard.
Hello!
OK there must be a minority of exeptions as obviously you ride a pretty small but have fairly large shoes for your size?
I ride a 555S Club Tour with size 43 shoes and have miles of toe space.
I ride a 550 Audax and have loads of toe overlap which I do not particularly like.
Thanks for your post.
Best regards,
John
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John do you know the weight of the club tour frame? I know the audax frame only is 2.3kg and it would be interesting to see how it compares.
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John do you know the weight of the club tour frame? I know the audax frame only is 2.3kg and it would be interesting to see how it compares.
Hello,
Sorry I have no idea other than its heavier but does not seem a great deal particularly when riding. Just more cumbersome steering at first, after riding the Audax for some time.
John
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Hi Gents,
Specs are here:
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/thornpdf/CP189ClubTourTest_Bike2.pdf
But I suppose it might depend on frame size?
Best Regards,
pj
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I've written a little tutorial on how to attach or embed photos here: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=4313.0
Thanks Dan,
I will be prepared next time.
Best Regards,
pj
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I thought Thorn say in their brochures that they will not put disc brakes on a frame with steel forks?
Jane
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I have a Club Tour, size 620S and I am delighted with it. It is not particularly light but I am impressed with its stability when loaded - to me, Thorn bikes have always been very good in that regard. It makes a great all-rounder.
WRT front wheel/toe clearance , I am 6' 3" with large 'plates of meat' (UK size 12) and, using cleats I have no toe overlap. There is still just adequate clearance between mudguard and front tyres (Marathon 32-622) on the Club Tour. Personally I think an increase of front-centre measurement of maybe 5-10mm wouldn't do any harm but I also realise that this sort of bike is built as a compromise between reasonable handling both loaded and unloaded.
Although I respect Thorn's pedigree in designing good touring bikes, I don't agree with the idea that steel forks and discs are incompatible. Steel disc forks just need to be designed differently compared to traditional crowned, taper-bladed forks to take into account the different forces at play. Plenty of reputable manufacturers and custom builders of touring bikes offer these now, and the next few years will almost certainly see most road bikes sold with disc brakes as standard.
I'll be interested to see what the new bike looks like.
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Hi Gents,
Specs are here:
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/thornpdf/CP189ClubTourTest_Bike2.pdf
But I suppose it might depend on frame size?
Best Regards,
pj
Thats interesting as its saying the club tour frame is the same weight as the audax frame. Good find!
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Thats interesting as its saying the club tour frame is the same weight as the audax frame. Good find!
But that review was dated 2006.
My 2011 CT had beefier chain and seat stays than my wife's earlier 2005 model and had double eyeleted Everest (??) forged dropouts with stainless steel inserts.
Loaded up it is extremely stable, so I'm sure it has heavier gauge tubing than the Audax, therefore it'll be heavier.
Given that it is rated the same as their 26" wheel Sherpa for max luggage, if memory serves, then I would assume it weighs a similar amount.
Cheers,
Tony
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That's interesting as its saying the club tour frame is the same weight as the audax frame. Good find!
I really like my Club Tour, but it's a bit heavy for Audax rides. To be fair, I bought it specifically for a couple of tours in the UK for which it was the dog's bollocks. It morphed into an Audax and commuter bike when it came to Australia.
From memory, the Audax fork is considerably lighter. (particularly the new optional version)
I wonder if it's worth buying an Audax fork to replace the CT one?
Or would the geometry be compromised?
Dan?..... Dan? Are you there, Dan?
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Dan?..... Dan? Are you there, Dan?
Right here, Peter! ;D
To see what effect changes in trail can have on handling (specific to my late Sherpa, but the same principles wrt to trail apply to other frame/fork/tire combinations as well), see my article titled "Sherpa handling, Sherpa hacking, and a little bicycle science" here: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=4245.0
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Looking at the SJS Cycles website, I see the older (discontinued) Club Tour forks are available in rakes of 50mm and 55mm; I don't see them in current stock. See: http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/page/find/?name=Thorn%20club%20tour%20fork&page=1
I see the standard Audax Mk3 forks (matte black; sizes are more limited in other colors) are available in rakes of 43, 46, 50, and 55mm. See: http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/thorn-audax-mk3-1-1-8-inch-ahead-steel-fork-matt-black-prod27193/ Depending on your current Club Tour rake, I would expect an Audax fork of the same rake to handle much the same as your present CT fork. Changing to a different rake would change trail and therefore your bicycle's handling.
Please note, the forks referenced above are the standard-issue ones. According to the Audax brochure ( http://www.sjscycles.com/thornpdf/Thorn_Audax_Mk3.pdf pg.4), there are two optional forks. One is an 853c, described by Andy Blance thusly...Reynolds made the 853c blades and lightweight 853 steerer especially for us Reynolds even made the tooling for the tight-radius bend that I’d requested. These are a premium product offered at a premium price.
853c forks, with a 46mm offset, are suitable for [Audax Mk3] sizes 525, 550, 570 and 600, they’re available in Matt Black, Blue, Red and Gunmetal Imron. 853c forks, with a 52mm offset, suitable for sizes 495S and 555S are only available in Matt Black or Gunmetal.
NOTE 853c forks allow direct fitting of mudguards but they don’t have lo-loader bosses. As reliable as they are, you must never try to fit a front carrier to them. The tight-radius bends flex beautifully and I didn’t want a mudguard boss brazed on the bend, therefore we recommend that you use an SKS Secu clip. Max tyre size with mudguards 28c.
Weight 805g with steerer cut to 300mm. (Steerer weighs 0.71g per mm and is 380mm at full length). 2 x 5mm bosses for the direct mounting of mudguards.
There is a second optional fork made of carbon fiber which Andy Blance describes this way...We have a carbon fork available, which works well with the geometry of all the Mk3 frame sizes, apart from sizes 495S and 555S.
This carbon fork can save up to 400g* We are in two minds about recommending a carbon fork because the trouble with carbon is that you can’t necessarily see when it has been damaged by an impact. (* Depending upon steerer length.)
We’d only advise you to choose the carbon fork upgrade, if you never lend the bike to anybody and if you’re also prepared to destroy and dispose of the carbon fork responsibly, if it’s ever subjected to an impact.
Peter, your question is much the same one jags asked when he was pondering a carbon fork in hopes of making his Sherpa lighter and more lively.
It is my feeling a carbon or lightweight steel fork *in the same rake* will make a bike lighter overall and can often change the *feel* of the bike by being more flexible or by having better shock-damping characteristics or a tighter bend for the same rake, but so long as the actual rake is identical to your present fork, the *handling* should remain the same. If you change the fork rake and keep the frame's same head angle, then you are effectively changing trail, and that would affect handling.
I would suggest contacting SJS Cycles/Thorn and asking this same question. They really are very good at providing solid answers, and Andy Blance is surprisingly available to give the Designer's Word on what will work or not, either directly or through staff via their email responses to queries.
If you are curious as to how a fork with different rake *might* affect your bike's handling, you must first accurately determine your head tube angle and the rake of your current fork. From these, you can determine your current trail using one of the online trail calculators references at my "Sherpa handling, Sherpa hacking" link above. You can then plug-in the rake of the fork(s) you are considering and the calculator will spit out the trail of that new combo for comparison to your present fork/frame trail. You can then check the result against my trail-based handling descriptions in that same article for a prediction of how your bike might be expected to ride with the new fork.
A number of people ask me the same question each year, and most have found the proven course to making a heavier bike feel both faster and more lively is to fit it with a pair of lighter wheels and tires. The reduced rotating mass at the outside of the wheel will accelerate faster and will feel (and be) more responsive. Often, lighter tires are also narrower. Given the common near-1:1 height/width profile of bike tires, those same narrow tires will affect handling a bit also by being lower, typically resulting in less trail. If you're used to running your Club Tour on wider/higher profile tires, you can make it more stable and resistant to rider input at lower speeds and a bit less stable/more vague at high speeds by switching to narrower/lower tires (most suitable when riding unladen on good roads).
A heavier, touring-oriented bike can be made lighter and/or more lively in feel to a degree by changing the fork or wheels/tires, but there is ultimately only so much you can do as the die has been cast with frame geometry, materials, and tube diameter and wall thickness; it will still be a touring bike at heart, rather than a true Audax bike. That said, my Audax (randonneur) bicycle started life as a tourer, and with the addition of fairly light but very strong wheels (Mavic 20.3mm MA-2 rims, Phil Wood hubs, 36-1.8mm spokes, lightweight tubes and 32mm road slicks), has become my favorite all-'rounder and long-distance day-rider, carrying me comfortably on mountainous 400K day rides and snaps off 300K runs like clockwork, never leaving me feeling achey or beat-up afterwards. I can tour on very rough gravel roads with a pretty reasonable maximum load of 25kg and come out fine.
It might be worth borrowing a set of lighter wheels/tubes/tires to try on your Club Tour to see how much difference it makes for Audax rides.
I hope this helps.
All the best,
Dan.
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Right here, Peter!
Dan... he who never sleeps, apparently.
Thanks Dan for your speedy and (as usual) comprehensive and comprehensible response.
I really must try to borrow some lighter wheels. I have 2 other 700C bikes with lighter wheels than the CT, but they are Campag equipped and don't play well with the Shimano group set. (also 8 speed and 10 speed vs the CT's 9 speed)
Cheers,
pj
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Ive always thought something like this: http://www.columbustubi.com/eng/4_2_11.htm would be a good upgrade, but the rake is 45mm, so there will be some deadening of the ride if I understand things correctly. Less offset, means greater trail means more stable handling I think...
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In the meantime CSS rims with modern V brakes give me the modulation and braking power i need with no maintenance.
We have these on our tandem and they are very effective.
Also both the blue pads and the CSS rims seem to have a very long life.
Mike
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Still on original CSS rims and first set of Swisstop pads after 18,000kms. Yes, long life indeed.
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Still on original CSS rims and first set of Swisstop pads after 18,000kms. Yes, long life indeed.
Yes, I'm at a similar level more than 12,000 miles on the same pads. The pads are getting close to needing replacing. No idea about the rims which superficially look fine.
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Well I for one have always had my eye out for the club tour. Ive read what thorn has made a strong, shall we say "mocking" long term stance about disk brakes and have always valued that stance. The merits of their philosophy are not the point for me. It is the refreshing aspect, that a company, and now a pretty upscale company, has the panache to swim against "me too" tide. I respect that ... not to mention that I don't want the complexity of disk brakes myself. Yeah, Thorn has sold me. Sold me on the semi custom and no Disk brakes or features of the weeks stance. Name another company like that?
So, sadly ... if there is a new Club tour, and it has disk brakes on it - I know that Ive been conned. No matter how it is spun ... to me, from then on Thorn would be a company bankrupt of principle. And my principles are that I don't deal with companies like that whenever possible. Heck I have to deal with the US government ...so that is enough holding my nose. ;)
First the cutting down of sizes. Makes economic sense to do that ... but the semi custom blurb went out the door. Now disk brakes? Heck no.
But of course this is all academic. Right? That will never happen. Heck .. read the brochures. Disk brakes are evil! :D No. Won't happen. Right?
Right.
And I know the price won't go up. Dems tough economic times here. And Andy loves us! Can't ya just feel it when you read the brochures?
;)
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I am btw biding my time to purchase another or two more bikes. I'm waiting for my daughter to stop growing (though not too soon - she wants to be 5'11" :D) and then buy her a real nice bike. If it becomes that we ride mostly dirt and off road then I want to get her a Nomad, the lighter version of the frame, and if we get into more road stuff then we both need something to suit and the Club tour is high on my list. She has grown three inches since our 2012 tour so perhaps another year or two ... and I want to splurge on whatever is the best ... fer my girl.
They just better not jam Disks on a traditional British Tourer!
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Even Thorn have to swim with the tide occasionally. The frame AFAIK will be disc optional so you can still have rim brakes but it will probably have to be a thicker/stronger one. Basically, people are moving to discs - that is inescapable. And Thorn could admit they were wrong without having to be a company without principles. Sometimes it takes a long time for an innovation to prove itself; sometimes it just sits alongside the old like bar ends and STIs. As long as we have the choice, it shouldn't matter. At least Thorn have something to be wrong about (if they are wrong) unlike most larger companies who have nothing to say about anything.
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Well I for one have always had my eye out for the club tour. Ive read what thorn has made a strong, shall we say "mocking" long term stance about disk brakes and have always valued that stance. The merits of their philosophy are not the point for me. It is the refreshing aspect, that a company, and now a pretty upscale company, has the panache to swim against "me too" tide. I respect that ... not to mention that I don't want the complexity of disk brakes myself. Yeah, Thorn has sold me. Sold me on the semi custom and no Disk brakes or features of the weeks stance. Name another company like that?
So, sadly ... if there is a new Club tour, and it has disk brakes on it - I know that Ive been conned. No matter how it is spun ... to me, from then on Thorn would be a company bankrupt of principle. And my principles are that I don't deal with companies like that whenever possible. Heck I have to deal with the US government ...so that is enough holding my nose. ;)
First the cutting down of sizes. Makes economic sense to do that ... but the semi custom blurb went out the door. Now disk brakes? Heck no.
But of course this is all academic. Right? That will never happen. Heck .. read the brochures. Disk brakes are evil! :D No. Won't happen. Right?
Right.
And I know the price won't go up. Dems tough economic times here. And Andy loves us! Can't ya just feel it when you read the brochures?
;)
Absolute full agreement!
John
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Well I for one have always had my eye out for the club tour. Ive read what thorn has made a strong, shall we say "mocking" long term stance about disk brakes and have always valued that stance.
I don't think that Thorn have ever said they are totally against disc brakes per se. The new(ish) Thorn Mercury frame has a rear disc mounts as does the Nomad mk II. If I have understood correctly, what Thorn have issue with are front disc brakes on a steel fork.
Traditional tapered-blade, curved steel forks don't have the necessary blade diameter (and therefore shear strength) to cope with the much larger forces associated with disc brakes. The blades need to be thicker which probably does mean some loss of comfort.
Here in Australia there is a tourer called the Vivente World Randonneur. The designer has thoughtfully provided both cantilever bosses and disc rotor mounts on the same front fork. That way, those who prefer cantis/V brakes can still continue to use the frame and fork with 'traditional' brakes, but allowing those who want to move to discs to do so.
That to me seems the logical way forward.
Cheers,
Tony
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Hello all and sundry!
I have been thinking! Has anyone at Thorn said anything about the new coming version of Club Tour yet? Speculation is one thing. Reality is another?
John
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I don't think that Thorn have ever said they are totally against disc brakes per se. The new(ish) Thorn Mercury frame has a rear disc mounts as does the Nomad mk II. If I have understood correctly, what Thorn have issue with are front disc brakes on a steel fork.
Traditional tapered-blade, curved steel forks don't have the necessary blade diameter (and therefore shear strength) to cope with the much larger forces associated with disc brakes. The blades need to be thicker which probably does mean some loss of comfort.
Here in Australia there is a tourer called the Vivente World Randonneur. The designer has thoughtfully provided both cantilever bosses and disc rotor mounts on the same front fork. That way, those who prefer cantis/V brakes can still continue to use the frame and fork with 'traditional' brakes, but allowing those who want to move to discs to do so.
That to me seems the logical way forward.
Cheers,
Tony
Steel itself isn't the problem so I never understood that bit on the website PDF. I have a steel Sardar with provision for discs. I presume they meant (as you say) narrow steel forks as opposed to heavier ones. I thought carbon forks were more problematic. The issue arises that even if you don't use the forks for disc brakes you still have to use the heavier fork unless of course there is a choice of fork.
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Steel itself isn't the problem so I never understood that bit on the website PDF. I have a steel Sardar with provision for discs. I presume they meant (as you say) narrow steel forks as opposed to heavier ones. I thought carbon forks were more problematic. The issue arises that even if you don't use the forks for disc brakes you still have to use the heavier fork unless of course there is a choice of fork.
Inevitably, a steel touring fork designed to cope with a disc rotor would have to be heavier. I am suspicious of any steel fork fitted with disc mounts that uses tapered blades. The shear forces at the disc rotor radius are around ten times that of rim brakes - right at the point where the fork blade diameter is at its smallest.
Anyway, this is all supposition. Until Thorn announce this expected new model we don't know what the spec for brakes will be. My hunch is that they will continue to do what they have done on the Mercury and the Mk 2 Nomad: rear frame disc mounts, but none on the front steel fork. Maybe they will also offer an optional carbon fork with disc mounts for use if you want to go Audaxing on it.
Cheers
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I do not know what Thorn are up to, but feel that they are concentrating on Rohloff bikes and just messing about changing colours etc on derailleur geared bikes. No obvious need for changing the Club Tour because it is great as it is!
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Inevitably, a steel touring fork designed to cope with a disc rotor would have to be heavier. I am suspicious of any steel fork fitted with disc mounts that uses tapered blades. The shear forces at the disc rotor radius are around ten times that of rim brakes - right at the point where the fork blade diameter is at its smallest.
Tout Terrain do one for their Silk Road, a very highly regarded expedition tourer, and I have not heard of a rash of fork failures. It is an assymetrical fork, so yes, it will be heavier but the weight is in a stronger larger diameter left blade. Also note the altered alignment of the dropout entry.
(http://cdn.mos.bikeradar.com/images/bikes-and-gear/components/forks-rigid/1233578966718-1n03hgnevr76m-399-80.jpg)
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Tout Terrain do one for their Silk Road, a very highly regarded expedition tourer, and I have not heard of a rash of fork failures. It is an assymetrical fork, so yes, it will be heavier but the weight is in a stronger larger diameter left blade. Also note the altered alignment of the dropout entry.
(http://cdn.mos.bikeradar.com/images/bikes-and-gear/components/forks-rigid/1233578966718-1n03hgnevr76m-399-80.jpg)
Ghastly!
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Ghastly!
You're looking at one aspect, of one component, in isolation. Looking at the total package it blends into a touring package that, I believe, works very well. There is quite a lot of real innovation in Tout Terrain's frames.
(http://cdn.mos.bikeradar.com/images/bikes-and-gear/bikes/touring/1233330914848-31xfb2833r2m-800-75.jpg)
Sorry about going OT, but I am just pointing out that such a fork can be made to work, safely and effectively. Appearance is something else I guess, but I don't find it too repulsive.
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The fork in question is ghastly. Anyone can ride any bike as a Tourer, But a real quality bike with a decent fork is best.
John
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Ghastly is all down to personal taste. As an example, I personally find Thorn's font pannier rack really ghastly. Could not insult the lines of my bike with such ironmongery that is rather excessive IMHO. I prefer the curves and minimalism of the Tubus Duo.
But I fully acknowledge, that is just my taste. The rack works very well by all accounts.
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I agree that the "ghastly" fork isn't as pretty as those on the Club Tour, but in my opinion the performance of cantilever brakes is definitely ghastly in comparison with disc brakes. I would happily use those forks, and they are actually prettier than the bog straight forks on one of my bikes.
I also agree with Il Padrone that the Thorn front rack (and for me the rear expedition rack as well) is a step too far in 'function over form', +1 for Tubus.
Getting back OT I think the Club Tour is a very nice bike and if I could only have one bike it would be very near the top of my list, but alas it seems it is to be no more, at least in its current form.
Cheers.
Jim
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Is that a silk road model?
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Getting back OT I think the Club Tour is a very nice bike and if I could only have one bike it would be very near the top of my list, but alas it seems it is to be no more, at least in its current form.
Cheers.
Jim
The SJS website if I am right has "ghost" panels now for the new Mark 4 Club tour frames. These will be in gunmetal grey and red/blue diagonals. Siziing appears to be different as well. No further details apart from price - £499 for the frame as opposed to £489 currently for frame and forks. Given the above posts it is hard to see Thorn not making provision for at least some disc braking and the rest of the frame one could reasonably expect to be in the Thorn tradition.
Except for the colours ... >:(
Thorn do an amazing blue and an amazing red - everyone seems to like them. Why combine them? I know they've done it before but I think that's ghastly!
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I tried to indicate there was a revised Club Tour on the way in this thread:
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=7807.15
I spoke to Andy Blance at the time but didn't want to steal his or Thorn's thunder by blabbing too much. Andy didn't ask me not to but it
seemed to me that I wouldn't do it justice having only had a few minutes discussion. Enough time though for me to decide I would wait for the frames to arrive and order one!
Steve
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The SJS website if I am right has "ghost" panels now for the new Mark 4 Club tour frames. These will be in gunmetal grey and red/blue diagonals. Siziing appears to be different as well. No further details apart from price - £499 for the frame as opposed to £489 currently for frame and forks. Given the above posts it is hard to see Thorn not making provision for at least some disc braking and the rest of the frame one could reasonably expect to be in the Thorn tradition.
Except for the colours ... >:(
Thorn do an amazing blue and an amazing red - everyone seems to like them. Why combine them? I know they've done it before but I think that's ghastly!
Whilst commenting about other brands I feel that my comment regarding tge lump of MTB steel fork above may be fairly polite? The facts are clear, MTB heavy duty forks are tough but heavy. A real tourer has real tourer equipment. Any MTB can be toured on as in fact can folding bikes. But a Thorn tourer is a properly built if somewhat overpriced frameset.
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saw on in the shop today, rear disk mount on the frame, no sign of a front one though. very nice in grey, but didn't see the other colours. They said they are working on the PDF at the moment. Have to say, it looked really nice in grey though!
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So they've landed then!
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I am expecting a call from the lovely Lisa when they are ready to sell me one!
The other colours are arriving later I believe.
New front disc enabled fork will be available for those that way inclined.
I think I will be going for a rear disc and front Vbrake myself.
Steve
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is there a link to these bikes.
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Not yet. They said they are working on the pdf and it should be available in the next few weeks.
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;) ah no problem keeping us all on the edge. ;D
during the tour magnus backsteed (sorry about the spelling)was asked whats the next big thing in bike design he said disc brakes, but at the moment there way to heavy.
but he reckoned in the next few years all the pros would be riding bikes with disc brakes and at the speed those guys travel they will need them.i'm safe enough no bother stopping at 10mph in any condition.
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Hi All!
First photo of the new Mk4 Club Tour being assembled in the Thorn Workshop on their Twitter feed here: https://twitter.com/Thorn_Cycles/status/413272716095922176/photo/1/large?utm_source=fb&utm_medium=fb&utm_campaign=SJSCycles&utm_content=413273397708472320
Looks very tasty indeed. Check out the contoured chainstays, reminiscent of those on the Mercury. Nicely extended head tube. Installed rear disc looks good and -- oh! -- the gunmetal color! Very nice.
Best,
Dan.
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is there a price on the frameset .whats different on it besides chainstays is it lighter tubing tighter angles or more relaxed, bigger range of colours more expensive or cheaper ::)
thanks for that link Dan intereted to see a lot more photos.
jags.
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Brochure's coming soon, Jags; we'll know much more when it arrives.
All the best,
Dan.
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is there a price on the frameset .whats different on it besides chainstays is it lighter tubing tighter angles or more relaxed, bigger range of colours more expensive or cheaper ::)
thanks for that link Dan intereted to see a lot more photos.
jags.
Price and sizes are on the sjs website.
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i looked but can't find it have you a link to that please. ;)
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Here y'go, jags:
For the gunmetal Imron one: http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/thorn-club-tour-mk4-frame-gunmetal-imron-prod32709/
For the "R&B" Imron one: http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/thorn-club-tour-mk4-frame-randb-imron-prod32710/
Dunno if "R&B" means "Red & Blue" or possibly "Red & Black" bi-colored on the same frame, as has been used on Audaxes in the past, or if it indicates Red *or* Blue (or Black) self-colored (all one color) frames.
Can't wait to find out!
Best,
Dan. (...who loves the suspense awaiting introduction of each new Thorn model)
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Thanks Dan £499=600euro plus postage plus quick devorce ::)
emm have to think about this one ;)
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Interesting... smallest size is now 520.
Mine is 517(L) and I'm sure there was a smaller one available.
Presumably, the geometry has altered so the 520 suits smaller riders who would previously have opted for the 517.
Or... smaller sizes are not yet in production
Or... shorter riders need not apply.
No doubt all will be revealed.
OH! the suspense!!
pj
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Its red and blue, and they said it was the classic colour scheme which I take to mean to same as the ones on the mercury frame.
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Hello,
I believe from viewing size charts for a number of Thorn bikes, that the 'new' Club Tour sizes are or could be the same as a Mercury.
This is 'presumeably' a cheap way of building 'handbuilt in Taiwan' frames to suit all (and sundry no doubt'?). Rationalising is a term I have read from Thorn previously, which my interpretation means to suit and our manufacturing process. If a few sizes are lost it means a few customers lost, but the greater majority are suited. This in my opinion is totally against all that Thorn once stood for which was 'we have bikes to fit all'!
The addition if it is so, of dreadful disc brakes is another option which once was scorned. I think the changes are simply messing about to try to 'recruit' more customers. Change colours change sizes (?) and add bits........
I am looking forward to seeing a Club Tour in my favourite Red and Blue colours if tastefully done.
Before anyone suggests, I am not going to buy a 'new' Club Tour, the one I own is perfect!!
Have a great Christian Christmas and a Happy new year.
John
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saw on in the shop today, rear disk mount on the frame, no sign of a front one though. very nice in grey, but didn't see the other colours. They said they are working on the PDF at the moment. Have to say, it looked really nice in grey though!
It looks as though there are 3 fork options:-
"ST-700" which I would guess is a 'super tourist' standard touring fork with canti / v-brake and low loader bosses.
"MERVC 853" which is a lightweight 853 fork as per the Mercury brochure, with canti / v-brake bosses, but without low loader bosses.
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/700c-thorn-mervc-853-steel-fork-retro-black-prod30604/
and "Steel Disc" which will be very interesting to see!
Lots of nice options there.
Jim
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Spoke to Lisa yesterday but decided to wait for brochure before I put my order in.
Big decision is going to be 10 speed or 9 speed with bar end shifters.
I've seen the other thread on 10 speed and the brochure's "standard" build will be 10 speed.
Until I knew that I was going 9 speed. Now I'm not so sure.
I know I will go for the gunmetal imron but what colour components black or my prefered silver?
This is too stressful..................... ;D
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Anyone know why the Mercury frames are so much more expensive than the club tour? Have I missed something?
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Anyone know why the Mercury frames are so much more expensive than the club tour? Have I missed something?
In a nutshell its 853 vs 725, custom made eccentric's vs standard bb shell, custom made dropouts vs standard dropouts. All this adds up.
Hope this helps.
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In a nutshell its 853 vs 725, custom made eccentric's vs standard bb shell, custom made dropouts vs standard dropouts. All this adds up.
Hope this helps.
Thanks, I was missing something!
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Those 853 forks are bloody expensive, the way these bikes are going up in price a fella would want to take out a second mortgage to buy one.
mind you i suppose it gives a fella good bragging rights when someone asks how much did you pay for your bike.
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It's not a Thorn specific thing that, cycle prices and cycle parts prices are going up across the board. You just need to look at successive year models from large manufacturers, Dawes galaxy for example, and see the slow degradation of spec year on year to keep the model in the same price bracket.
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Those 853 forks are bloody expensive, the way these bikes are going up in price a fella would want to take out a second mortgage to buy one.
mind you i suppose it gives a fells good bragging rights when someone asks how much did you pay for your bike.
Hello and welcome to 'my opinion',
Maybe Taiwan has cottoned on to the 'fact' that the Thorn frames are manufactured on a production line, but are sold as handbuilt. Are prices in Taiwan increased due to this fact? Are the Taiwan manufacturers 'blackmailing' Thorn? Taiwan might be telling Thorn to stop bragging about handmade or we tell all?Taiwanese built frames do not cost what the UK is expected to pay. The cost of a frame is miniscule compared to the UK prices!!!!!!!!
Before anyone kicks off about my comments, I own love and ride and stand by Thorn and promote Thorn. I am however not blind to the fact that it is I and others making Millionares of others.
Happy Christmas and New Year to all includine the Thorn posse.
John
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John i couldn't answer your question but i know all the big names in bikes are made in Taiwan where the labour costs are much cheaper, so i guess the cost must come from tax no idea to be honest.
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The SJS website if I am right has "ghost" panels now for the new Mark 4 Club tour frames. These will be in gunmetal grey and red/blue diagonals. Siziing appears to be different as well. No further details apart from price - £499 for the frame as opposed to £489 currently for frame and forks. Given the above posts it is hard to see Thorn not making provision for at least some disc braking and the rest of the frame one could reasonably expect to be in the Thorn tradition.
Except for the colours ... >:(
Thorn do an amazing blue and an amazing red - everyone seems to like them. Why combine them? I know they've done it before but I think that's ghastly!
Obviously..... I love the red and blue that I had on my Audax 853, but the red and blue were 'different' red and blue colours.
John
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The descriptions of the new mk4 frame definitely list a Thorn steel disk fork. Would love to see more detail on this, but cant find it yet in the catalogue. Looks like a definite for me as a frame replacement for my tourer/commuter bike (currently a Dalesman with a thorn fork!) when I get the money together.
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The descriptions of the new mk4 frame definitely list a Thorn steel disk fork. Would love to see more detail on this, but cant find it yet in the catalogue. Looks like a definite for me as a frame replacement for my tourer/commuter bike (currently a Dalesman with a thorn fork!) when I get the money together.
'Looking forward' to seeing a Thorn disc fork! Not my style at all. I am much more traditional when it comes to Touring bikes.
John
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Yeh, in general Im not that bothered either myself, but an all weather commuter (which is what it gets used as at the moment) with a 3 year old on the back I'm really beginning to wish I had brakes that worked in the wet! ;)
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Hello all,
I am thinking that it is a bit of a poor show from Thorn/ St John St Cycles inasmuch that whilst the 'new' version of the Club Tour is fairly well acknowledged, no information either on the Thorn site nor SJSC is showing.
On the Thorn site there should at the very least be an updated PDF version surely? As to size choice on the SJSC site there is no picture no size chart.
Why is the company so far behind with the detailed updates which some eagerly await?
John
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Hello all,
I am thinking that it is a bit of a poor show from Thorn/ St John St Cycles inasmuch that whilst the 'new' version of the Club Tour is fairly well acknowledged, no information either on the Thorn site nor SJSC is showing.
On the Thorn site there should at the very least be an updated PDF version surely? As to size choice on the SJSC site there is no picture no size chart.
Why is the company so far behind with the detailed updates which some eagerly await?
John
Working on it currently, theres alot to do with bikes to Photo for it, only 1 colour is in stock currently too, we have spec's to be decided on and costed, etc. but we will get there soon, please be patient!
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Maybe Taiwan has cottoned on to the 'fact' that the Thorn frames are manufactured on a production line, but are sold as handbuilt. Are prices in Taiwan increased due to this fact? Are the Taiwan manufacturers 'blackmailing' Thorn? Taiwan might be telling Thorn to stop bragging about handmade or we tell all?
Complete nosense with no facts to back it up, we dont have enough of any one model or size made at a time for them to be built on a production line, somewhere I have pictures of them being handmade in the factory I will try and dig them out soon if you can't belive this.
I am however not blind to the fact that it is I and others making Millionares of others.
Theres no millionares here! Making bikes doesn’t make us loads of money, in fact, depending on how you apportion property and other fixed costs, it may make none!!
Dave
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'Looking forward' to seeing a Thorn disc fork! Not my style at all. I am much more traditional when it comes to Touring bikes.
John
1 Spy shot ;D and for reference, we didn't want to make this fork and still don't recomend it, its more a case of market demands for a steel disc fork, even if it is heavy and uncomfortable, its as light and comfortable as we could make it though.
(http://i44.tinypic.com/30b2ulk.jpg)
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Hello all,
I am thinking that it is a bit of a poor show from Thorn/ St John St Cycles inasmuch that whilst the 'new' version of the Club Tour is fairly well acknowledged, no information either on the Thorn site nor SJSC is showing.
On the Thorn site there should at the very least be an updated PDF version surely? As to size choice on the SJSC site there is no picture no size chart.
Why is the company so far behind with the detailed updates which some eagerly await?
John
John: one thing we appreciate about Thorn is it's personal service. I've had emails personally and promptly answered by Andy Blance regarding quite minor details about the Sherpa. You just won't get that with a big company (time is money) and yet for us it's vital as bikes are such particular machines. If we all get on the "instant customer service" bandwagon we will drive firms like Thorn out of business. As far as I am concerned the situation is perfectly acceptable (although I too am waiting for news). Thank goodness that Thorn are human like the rest of us.
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1 Spy shot ;D and for reference, we didn't want to make this fork and still don't recomend it, its more a case of market demands for a steel disc fork, even if it is heavy and uncomfortable, its as light and comfortable as we could make it though.
(http://i44.tinypic.com/30b2ulk.jpg)
looks good to me. Just what i need to stop me and my 3 year old in the current rain! Looks like rather a lot of tyre clearance there as well, what can you squeeze in?
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Dave
Thank you. This is a result!
Pa
Patience is a virtue but when one hears on things new.............
I am very happy that questions are being answered. I a really looking forward to the R & B colour.
Best regards,
John.
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Complete nosense with no facts to back it up, we dont have enough of any one model or size made at a time for them to be built on a production line, somewhere I have pictures of them being handmade in the factory I will try and dig them out soon if you can't belive this.
Theres no millionares here! Making bikes doesn’t make us loads of money, in fact, depending on how you apportion property and other fixed costs, it may make none!!
Dave
Dave,
I am happy to retract suggestions. I am also looking forward to pictures of the Thorn frames being built by hand! I did converse with Robin some years ago when he explained about the cost of making suitable jigs.
If indeed as you say, the frames are indeed hand built, then I can honestly say that the tig welding is superbe.
Regards,
John
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John: one thing we appreciate about Thorn is it's personal service. I've had emails personally and promptly answered by Andy Blance regarding quite minor details about the Sherpa. You just won't get that with a big company (time is money) and yet for us it's vital as bikes are such particular machines. If we all get on the "instant customer service" bandwagon we will drive firms like Thorn out of business. As far as I am concerned the situation is perfectly acceptable (although I too am waiting for news). Thank goodness that Thorn are human like the rest of us.
Hello,
Agreed to a certain point.
I have spoken with and met on numerous occasion both Andy and Robin. Both business men earning money.
You failed to really grasp my point which maybe I was not too clear about?
Website shows Club Tour frame listing with sizes but NO size chart no pictures either. This in my opinion is not good for Thorn or us as customers.
I am and have been for many many years a Thorn customer. I am never going to buy any bike other than Thorn!
I do have a Brompton..................
John
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looks good to me. Just what i need to stop me and my 3 year old in the current rain! Looks like rather a lot of tyre clearance there as well, what can you squeeze in?
38c's and a 45mm guard fits fine.
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I've noticed the spec and some pictures of the new disc fork are showing in the mercury brochure now. From that, its approx 1100g, and can take 7.5kg each side of luggage.
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1st draft of brochure now online ;D
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Thanks Dave, tell Lisa to stand by!!
Steve
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Rumours that this is the new MK 4 undergoing trials are immediately denied at Thorn Central!
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So £1450 ish for a disc brake tourer, or £1600 for a drop bar version. Seems a good price and slightly under the RRP for a Dawes super galaxy - which is reynolds 631 rather than 725 as well. Looks good!
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One thing that stands out to me is Andy's words about the re-design in that the aim was to make the bike handle better unloaded as well as loaded. In fact he specifically says a club tour build would make the best light tourer. Is this a move to position the CT more into the audax frame area and phase out the audax, or does the audax model have a larger role than just a very good sports tourer?
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Is this a move to position the CT more into the audax frame area and phase out the audax, or does the audax model have a larger role than just a very good sports tourer?
No the Audax will remain, the Club Tour is still more stable loaded than the Audax.
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Hello
A half a degree seat tube change with miniscule difference in chainstay length.
Not worth spending extra money for what is essentially the same frameset for more money! Thank goodness there is no major change...Colours , well I am more than happy with green and I guess R & B means red and blue which is nice......
John
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I guess R & B means red and blue which is nice......
or it could mean Rhythm and Blues, which could be an interesting colour indeed.
Cheers,
pj (who paid 899 GBP for his new CT with XT upgrade in 2005)
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From the 'new' updated Thorn brochure (online)
The Club Tour Mk4 frames and all 3 fork options, are
available in a choice of 2 finishes; Gunmetal or R&B.
The Gunmetal finish has a deep lustre, which
appears to change from silver to deep pewter,
depending upon lighting. Black decals complete the
sophisticated look.
The R&B finish is Cobalt Blue Imron at the rear and
Blood Red Imron at the front. There is a 6mm white
diagonal line separating these colours. R&B forks
have a red crown and blue blades. The decals are
Navy blue and white. This is a much livelier finish!
But it still looks “classy and patriotic”.
The frames are treated internally with a rust
inhibitor; the outside surfaces are sprayed with a
rust-inhibiting primer.
The frames are then sprayed with highly-durable Du
Pont Imron twin pack polyester paint, as used on
aircraft.
All the decals including Reynolds 725 decals, are
applied and sealed into the finish with twin pack
polyester lacquer.
This colour scheme (R & B) is 'more or less' a reversed version of the previous Thorn Audax 853 (which I loved).
John http://www.pbase.com/leftpoole/image/128523380
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Club Tour Mk4 just ordered!
Understated Gunmetal.
3/4 week build time.
Should be here mid February hopefully.
Steve
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Club Tour Mk4 just ordered!
Understated Gunmetal.
3/4 week build time.
Should be here mid February hopefully.
Steve
Must be my sales technique?
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1 Spy shot ;D
(http://i43.tinypic.com/ngrqe.jpg)
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1 Spy shot ;D
(http://i43.tinypic.com/ngrqe.jpg)
Dave!
Do you have spare sunglasses?
Wow that is bright.
John
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Glad I've gone for Gunmetal!! :D :D :D
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I really like that! It would be my choice if I were to by a CT frame. Going to start saving the pennies I think! Now to decide, drop bars or flats... humm ;)
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Glad I've gone for Gunmetal!! :D :D :D
Have to agree! The R,W and B would be dangerous in some parts of the world!
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Wow, indeed! Looks lovely, Dave.
I wonder if this finish might just move jags from Audax to Club Tour...? I see some "Anto Blue" in there.
Best,
Dan.
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class but for me i think the gunmetal gray would be my choice.i have changed my mind again its the club tour i don't want to be left wanting the tour cant really be far off the audax for lightness and speed.
btw how much is that frameset..
jags.
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class but for me i think the gunmetal gray would be my choice
Can't go wrong with the gunmetal, jags. I have a bike painted in what the maker called "Light Metallic Smoke" and another in "Bright Pewter". They've stayed fresh-looking over the years...one is 25, the other 37 years old. Fashion-proof.
Best,
Dan.
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yes love that colour Dan any idea of price of frameset.
i cant afford to buy yet daughters weddind is in a few weeks.
jags
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£499.00, jags. See: http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/thorn-700c-club-tour-mk4-frame-gunmetal-imron-prod32709/?geoc=us
Best,
Dan.
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Thanks Dan.better start saving. ::)
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what is that thing sticking up from back dropout :D
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what is that thing sticking up from back dropout :D
Disc brake mounting bracket. Same style as on the Mercury.
Interesting that on a touring frame there is only a single eyelet on each rear dropout for rack and mudguard mounting. They are obviously expecting you to use Thorn racks which have mudguard eyelets on the rack legs. This seems like a bad design feature to me.
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well i hope it takes a tubus rack as i just bought one ::)
i'm confused now disc on rear :o
so does that mean i cant use caliber brakes if thats the case i wont be buying a club tour.
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Won't take caliper brakes, but will take cantilever, V, or disc brakes.
Tubus rack will fit but you would have to put mudguard stays onto same eyelet which is possible but not ideal.
Actually, looking again at the frame it doesn't have cantilever/V studs, unless they can be screwed on as an extra, it looks like there are bosses on the seatstays.
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oh man this is a total disaster,now isn't that bad planning from thorn.have they ever heard of the saying if it an't broke don't fix it.
those changes totally puts me off buying the club tour,i know they might seem like trivial to most but if i'm buying a touring frame set i want caliber brakes (my choice) and seperate fittings for mudguards.simpley because it makes for a better easier fitting of racks and mudguards.
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Not many touring bikes use caliper brakes jags.
Looking at the supersize photo there are two sets of bosses on each seatstay where the cantilever/V studs would normally be located, maybe to allow using different wheel sizes?
(http://www.sjscycles.com/supersize/32709.jpg)
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Ah rule i could name a few to be honest,my plan was to buy new frame and swap all my new gear from raleigh over now if i buy this club tour i will need to buy either a new rear disc wheel or a set of v or canti brakes.
god i tell you these boys that design bikes make it hard for a fella to use what ever gear they choose.
like how much harder would it be to drill a hole for caliber brakes and braze a fitting for mudguards.
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I wanted the option of larger tyres which usually doesn't allow you to use calliper brakes. I think Rivendell are the only ones who offer large tyres and calliper brakes but even that is not on their touring model.
I hadn't clocked there was only one eyelet! Most of the time this will not be an issue for me as I will be using a saddlebag. It is a shame though.
Also a shame: there is now no pump peg. That is something I would have liked for my favourite HPX pump. Something to do with not having the clearance now with the disc brake bracket, fatter tyre clearance or some such reason. I have voiced my disappointment but the fact remains.
However apart from these two small issues the frame looks a good one to my eyes and i'm really looking forward to seeing how it rides. :)
Steve
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Dave what's the weight of the new frames?
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I am surprised they have put the disc brake mount on the seatstay, this might be why there is only one rack eyelet ... you will need either a disc specific rack, or an adapter to give clearance for the rack and mudguard (I'm not sure how 2 adapters on 2 eyelets would work?).
If they had put the disc mounts on the chainstay then fitting racks and mudguards would be so much easier, not to mention 2 eyelets.
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I am surprised they have put the disc brake mount on the seatstay, this might be why there is only one rack eyelet...
HI Jim!
Given the high cost of bespoke dropouts, I wonder if the ones from the Mercury were also used on the Club Tour?
As I recall, the early Sherpas used just a single eyelet on their rear dropouts as well, the second eyelet being added later in a revised dropout.
My! Those cranked chainstays make for some visual interest. I wonder if that is what prevented a disc mount on the chainstay....
Best,
Dan.
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As I recall, the early Sherpas used just a single eyelet on their rear dropouts as well, the second eyelet being added later in a revised dropout.
Hi Dan
The previous iteration of the Club Tour also [briefly] had a single eyelet, which was picked upon by Chris Juden in the infamous CTC review. I think the response was that this was a temporary aberration ... but here we are again ...
Jim
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<nods> Yes, I remember. I wonder if we'll see a double-eyelet version succeeding this after initial production runs.
Best,
Dan.
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My! Those cranked chainstays make for some visual interest. I wonder if that is what prevented a disc mount on the chainstay....
Dan, I'm pretty sure your eye for detail has done the trick again, that could well be the answer.
Jim
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What is the point of the chainstays being like that?
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oh man this is a total disaster,now isn't that bad planning from thorn.have they ever heard of the saying if it an't broke don't fix it.
those changes totally puts me off buying the club tour,i know they might seem like trivial to most but if i'm buying a touring frame set i want caliber brakes (my choice) and seperate fittings for mudguards.simpley because it makes for a better easier fitting of racks and mudguards.
jags there are still some of the old frames for sale and at a reduced price. Not sure of the sizing though.
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I've seen that style disc mount on a few new bikes recently. I believe the benefit over mounting I to the chain stay is that the brake is mounted the right way up as if you mount them on the chain stay water can get in easier... Also easier to get at as well. You can see the same dropouts specifically on the Kinesis Tripster ATR.
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i'de say by the time i get the money together thorn will have changed back to old style club tour.
emm will have to think about this new fangled frame whether to buy or not ::)
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'Evening all,
The previous iteration of the Club Tour also [briefly] had a single eyelet, which was picked upon by Chris Juden in the infamous CTC review. I think the response was that this was a temporary aberration ... but here we are again ...
I have such a Club Tour... a 2005 edition. I can see the argument for double eyelets but would you believe it's never been a problem for me? I have had the rear guard and rack in place since new and I think I can say with confidence that it really isn't a show stopper for anyone contemplating a CT. (And yes... the rack does get a bit of use from time to time)
Cheers,
pj
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Hi Peter,
Have you connected rack and mudguards to the same eyelet or have you a Thorn rack which has eyelets for the mudguard?
Steve
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If they had put the disc mounts on the chainstay then fitting racks and mudguards would be so much easier, not to mention 2 eyelets.
We have seen designs like these and spoken to customers with them, when using a cable disc brake the cable tends to get full of rubbish because of the angle.
The single eyelet isn't a mistake or accident. We use this system because with the disc mount the only carriers that clear the caliper are Thorn or Tubus ones, both of which have provision for mudguard fittings on the rack giving you a stiffer mudguard and keeping the stays out of the way of anti-sway catches and the like. This is a proven design on the Mercury that we have run for several years.
The frame comes with the adapters to fit V/Canti brake bosses on the lugs provided on the seat stays if disc's arn't your cuppa tea.
Hope this helps explain, Dave
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Have you connected rack and mudguards to the same eyelet or have you a Thorn rack which has eyelets for the mudguard?
Hi Steve,
Both are connected to the same eyelet. (Mudguard stays 'inside' the rack)
The good guys at SJS put it together exceedingly well and it's never given an ounce of bother. Actually, it wasn't until I saw Chris Juden's review that I realised there were bikes with double eyelets. D'OH!
I have to say I'm looking forward to your first report after riding your new Club Tour.
Cheers,
pj
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Thanks for the reply Peter.
There seem to be two solutions. Both in same eyelet or mudguard stays attached to the rack.
I will not be attaching a carrier straight away but wanted to understand the solutions.
I'm looking forward to the first ride myself but it will be a few weeks yet.
Cheers
Steve
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Hi Dan
The previous iteration of the Club Tour also [briefly] had a single eyelet, which was picked upon by Chris Juden in the infamous CTC review. I think the response was that this was a temporary aberration ... but here we are again ...
Jim
If memory serves, the early CT, which was targeted as an entry-level tourer, and had inexpensive, double-eyeletted rear dropouts, but some of the dropouts failed. So in around 2004? Thorn went to the higher quality (Everest???) forged dropouts as fitted to their Sherpa series, but these only came with a single eyelet. Then in about 2010, the dropout manufacturer introduced a double-eyeletted, stainless-steel faced version which I have on my 2011 CT. This model also differed from the 2005 version by having beefier stays.
I'm guessing that future versions will get the second eyelet back at some point if the past is anything to go by!
Tonhy
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I'm guessing that future versions will get the second eyelet back at some point if the past is anything to go by!
They won't, the dropouts the CT uses are our spec, not off the shelf ones.
Dave.
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Just built up the sample R&B frame for the brochures ;D
(http://i43.tinypic.com/sysg91.jpg)
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That looks one sweet looking ride!
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Looks really Nice!
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Looks better in that colour when built up than as a frameset.
I prefer the understated look though myself.
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Looks better in that colour when built up than as a frameset.
I prefer the understated look though myself.
Agreed! Would feel compelled to invest in lycra and ride furiously, whereas the more subtle colours focus you on the journey. Very nice bike though.
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Looks better in that colour when built up than as a frameset.
I prefer the understated look though myself.
Yes! Absolutely.
Looking at the routing of the rear **** brake cable and the rear chainstays...it looks as though a future Club Tour could be afflicted with a Rohloff hub? I do believe after conversations with Andy Blance (the designer) that Thorn look to the future in Rohloff. The derailleur bikes are a secondary production.
John
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Looking at the routing of the rear **** brake cable and the rear chainstays...it looks as though a future Club Tour could be afflicted with a Rohloff hub? I do believe after conversations with Andy Blance (the designer) that Thorn look to the future in Rohloff. The derailleur bikes are a secondary production.
John
Not so, if you read page 4 of the brochure, that frame, the tubeset and fittings are from the ground up designed for derailleur systems. It would require the entire retrofit kit to add a Rohloff to that frame, none of the fittings/dropouts or BB system are compatible with Rohloff.
Andy belives in Rohloff, but isn't naive enough to belive that everyone should have or wants it. Andy spent a long time designing the MK4 its a completely new frame using new fittings, tubesets and profiles we have had to get Reynolds to produce especialy for it, it isn't simply a collection of tubes, dropouts, fittings and geometry borrrowed off other models. Yes the ISO disc mount design has been proven on the mecury but even that is a different dropout.
Dave
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There's a lovely one on the SJS site for a nice price. 533S.
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/thorn-club-tour-533s-%28225%29-racing-green-touring-audax-bike-used-prod33075/
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Very helpful information, Dave; the explanations help greatly and will dispel a lot of speculation as to the whys and hows. Nice to see Thorn is still committed to derailleur bikes as well as Rohloff; best of both in a single product line.
Lovely-looking bikes!
Thanks and best,
Dan.
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Not so, if you read page 4 of the brochure, that frame, the tubeset and fittings are from the ground up designed for derailleur systems. It would require the entire retrofit kit to add a Rohloff to that frame, none of the fittings/dropouts or BB system are compatible with Rohloff.
Andy belives in Rohloff, but isn't naive enough to belive that everyone should have or wants it. Andy spent a long time designing the MK4 its a completely new frame using new fittings, tubesets and profiles we have had to get Reynolds to produce especialy for it, it isn't simply a collection of tubes, dropouts, fittings and geometry borrrowed off other models. Yes the ISO disc mount design has been proven on the mecury but even that is a different dropout.
Dave
Dave,
Thank you for answering what was obviously a written view of how things look to others. You dispelled some worry.
As a matter of interest following the building of the new version of the Club Tour which is surely a Reynolds tube. Why is the Audax built with 'Thorn' 858 tube when Reynolds build the world? Or is the tube a Reynolds tube with another name. What indeed is 'Thorn' 858 anyhow?
It does look at times I imagine, that I am denigrating Thorn....far from it, I have 4 bikes plus a Brompton. Those 4 bikes are all Thorn. I have not owned or ridden any other brand for many years and will continue in the same vein.
Best regards,
John
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What indeed is 'Thorn' 858 anyhow?
Cromo tubing thats head treated and butted at 0.8/0.5/0.8 made in a virtually identical way to Reynolds tubing.
Dave
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I don't want to spoil the party but what do you do if you don't like the new colours?
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Spend more time riding it and less time looking at it
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Hope they have an old one in the clearance frame section that fits you? Or buy the silver one, as its the most unobtrusive.
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Actually it's a real problem. There are things I can do, by the way - have it resprayed for a start. But look at it this way: most people are desperately concerned about the colour of their bike. Nearly all men, whatever their protestations about colour not mattering would never choose to own a pink bike. Plenty of other people are persuaded by the colour of a bike (amongst lots of other things they buy like cars and clothes). Most people are happy though with a socially neutral "colour" like grey, i.e. no colour at all - but that's not great for those who like a particular colour.
But now let's look at it from the perspective of a small bike maker like Thorn. They already have four sizes in two different lengths in two colours: that's 16 bike frames to stock. Add two more colours and it's 32 bike frames with only one of each size/colour and from only one bike model. And they are not even half way to satisfying the colour choices of a range of customers.
So part of my post is about looking at the wider issue, not just from my preference. I'm wondering if Thorn wouldn't offer standard colours at a certain price and then a colour choice at an additional cost. Other bike makers do this although AFAIK Bob Jackson don't charge extra. I have a feeling that Thorn themselves have done something similar in the past. It may depend on when, where and by whom the bikes are sprayed/coated. Or could they offer an unpainted frame?
What do people think? And what does Thorn think?
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I am with you on this and feel that colour is very important (atleast to me). I can sympathise with the stocking issues involved. If it where my company I would offer a lower cost no lead time black powder coating or a longer lead time more expensive bespoke finish through a 3rd party supplier. It would give you the bespoke finish (only available with custom builds) with the tried and tested geometry of a mass(ish) produced frame.
Andy
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Colour was the deciding factor for me when buying my CT frame. Before choosing the CT I spent ages on the Mercian site playing with the frame builder and always chose BRG or as close to it as possible. If the CT had only been available in the new colours when I was looking for a frame then I wouldn't have bought it.
Chris
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Bob Jackson do their own painting and their paint shop does alot of other manufacturers as well such as Woodrups. Therefore they are going to be good value.
I agree about colour being important. However you could buy the frameset and then have it resprayed at say Bobs for £100 (website says £90 for a single colour) and then build up your bike at either LBS or yourself.
I doubt you'd get it much cheaper if Thorn were to outsource a bare frame.
If it were me I would buy a stock colour, ride the bike and then when it requires a respray go to Bobs. That is what I will be doing.
I have a Bob Jackson bike that is now 8 year's old. When the new Club Tour arrives I will have the Bob Jackson spruced up, respray and parts replaced.
Steve
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Blue or Silver will do me fine on a touring bike .when i had my look kx light it was plain white with black decals stunning bike to look at keep it simple, the bling comes from what ever gear you put on it.
nothing beats a brooks saddle on a touring bike after that wheels and tyres,even though i'm not a fan of hub gears ,a nice shiney new rohloff and schmitt dynamo does a lot for the appearence of a bike.
listen i know what im talking about i've been drooling over bikes long enough to want one ;D ;D ;D
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From the look of the limited pictures in the new brochure, the rear stays seem to be thinner than those of the previous incarnation of the CT. That model (mk 3??) used fully socketed rear dropouts, necessitating fatter stays (both chain and seat). I found those to create a very stable rear end when carrying loaded rear panniers. Most newer tourers seem to be following this trend these days.
Any reason that the new custom Thorn rear dropouts have reverted back to non-socketed drpouts, thus necessitating more slender stays? At first instance it seems a bit of a retrograde step.
Anyone any ides?
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There are three club tours for sale on the sjs site; two for 6ft + one for someone considerably smaller. Good prices too!
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/new-used-cycles-and-frames-dept671_pg1/#filterkey=cat&cat=780&page=1&page=1
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yeah still after that small club tour,only thing i don't like about it there's only one eyelet on rear dropout for both mudguard and rack,other that that its fine.
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Hi Anto,
Back on January 18, I posted in this thread:
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Re: Club Tour frames still available?
« Reply #132 on: January 18, 2014, 11:25:26 AM »
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'Evening all,
Quote
The previous iteration of the Club Tour also [briefly] had a single eyelet, which was picked upon by Chris Juden in the infamous CTC review. I think the response was that this was a temporary aberration ... but here we are again ...
I have such a Club Tour... a 2005 edition. I can see the argument for double eyelets but would you believe it's never been a problem for me? I have had the rear guard and rack in place since new and I think I can say with confidence that it really isn't a show stopper for anyone contemplating a CT. (And yes... the rack does get a bit of use from time to time)
The single eyelet thing is really not a problem. I have not had a moment's bother with it on C2C, LEJOG, a couple of dozen Audaxes and several thousand "other" kilometres.
I wouldn't let it influence a buying decision.
Hope this helps,
(and your weather improves before I get there..... 52 more sleeps)
Cheers,
pj
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thanks PJ yeah only thing stopping me buying is the lack of money ::)
to be honest i can't see myself getting 200 euro together (i have 300) in the next few months.
so i'de say its a case of saying farewell to thorn club tour for this year,unless of course i sell off this baby
http://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-LL16-Dreadnought-Acoustic-Natural/dp/B000YI9UE0.
but not having much luck so far. :'(
ah well all good things come to those that wait.
wonder what idiot came up with that line.
jags.
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Ah lads look at this.
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/thorn-club-tour-frame-and-fork-set-prod7579/?geoc=us
can you spot my name on the top tube AntoKelly in gold letters .oh how i would look after that baby,imaging all the fantastic places we would go together ,i think SJS should hide this frame for me in the darkest corner of there store until i come to rescue it.
please lads in sjs dont sell that little beauti to anyone but me.i'm down on one knee here begging. :'(
i'll sign off now i'm depressed.
jags.
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Is the 517L okay for you with drops, Anto, or a bit long in the reach?
Hoping for the best,
Dan. (...who thinks Tom Petty got it right when he sang "Waiting's the hardest part")
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Dave reckons i need 80mm stem to get my desired reach which is 520mm tip of saddle to centre bars.
to be honest i never had problems fitting a frame,so with a few adjustments here and there it should be fine,one thing for sure i don't want straight bars ;)
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Yay! Sounds good, jags.
Fingers crossed...
All the best,
Dan.
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mind you i still can't find a nice 80mm stem on sjs site. ::)
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What clamp diameter do you need, Anto?
Best,
Dan.
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would i need to use a Quill stem on that older club tour or can i use the modern stems :-\ what ever suits i suppose.
jags.
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would i need to use a Quill stem on that older club tour
No quill stem on that frame you linked to, Anto. or can i use the modern stems
Yep; you'd want 1-1/8 threadless (clamp-on) stem.
The thing you'll need to check is your handlebar clamp diameter. Thorn/SJS Cycles have plenty of stems in 25.4 diameter, but you may need 26.0 if you plan to re-use your current handlebars...or buy handlebars with a clamp diameter that will match the stem. Main thing is to make sure the clamp diameter matches the handlebar diameter, whatever it is.
Best,
Dan.
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cheers Dan ah when the time come i'll buy new bars as well,noel will more than likely build the raleigh back up again ;)